Advice on a recent family experience

[Chum]

I worked out some stuff about apologies.  Mostly it's to strip away the stuff that isn't apology.  I lead with the full measure of my wrongdoing. I don't pull the punch a bit by explaining or equivocating. 

And I completely divorce my actions from whatever their part might have been. Because none of that other stuff is apology.

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, Chum said:

I worked out some stuff about apologies.  Mostly it's to strip away the stuff that isn't apology.  I lead with the full measure of my wrongdoing. I don't pull the punch a bit by explaining or equivocating. 

And I completely divorce my actions from whatever their part might have been. Because none of that other stuff is apology.

A very good point.  Explaining, evaluating with each other what and where we are can come if it’s right after the apology has had time to be processed.

It is too easy to be distracted from the essential (an experience I am too familiar with because I want to deal with everything at once).

Edited May 17, 2025 by Calm

[let’s roll]

If the suggestion in one post in this thread (which I can’t find right now) that believing parents pour their adult child an occasional “glass of win” was a typo and was meant to be “glass of wine” I think the intended version is thoughtful advice regarding how parents can demonstrate nonjudgmental love.

If pouring your adult child an occasional “glass of win” was the intended advice and not a typo, it was even more brilliant and might be the best parenting advice I’ve ever read.  I think all parent-child relationships would improve if parents would remember to pour their children a metaphorical “glass of win” on a regular basis.

[Tacenda]

38 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

If the suggestion in one post in this thread (which I can’t find right now) that believing parents pour their adult child an occasional “glass of win” was a typo and was meant to be “glass of wine” I think the intended version is thoughtful advice regarding how parents can demonstrate nonjudgmental love.

If pouring your adult child an occasional “glass of win” was the intended advice and not a typo, it was even more brilliant and might be the best parenting advice I’ve ever read.  I think all parent-child relationships would improve if parents would remember to pour their children a metaphorical “glass of win” on a regular basis.

That is a great metaphor! 

[Analytics]

17 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Here is our draft of an apology for the kiddos:

We want to reach out and sincerely apologize for the gift we gave you — the decorated Book of Mormon. At the time, we saw it as a heartfelt gesture, especially with your mom’s beautiful artwork. But we’ve come to realize that it may have carried a different message than we intended — one that made some of you feel unseen, hurt, or pressured to return to something you’ve chosen to step away from.

That was never our intention, and we’re truly sorry.

We also recognize that some of you have experienced real pain and harm connected to the Church. We want to acknowledge that, and we’re sorry for not being more sensitive to it. Your experiences are valid, and your feelings matter deeply to us. We don’t want to minimize that pain or give the impression that we haven’t heard or understood it.

Please know that we love you unconditionally. Our relationship with you is not based on belief or membership — it’s based on who you are, and that is enough. You don’t have to change for us to love you fully. We want each of you to feel free to be your true self, and to know that you are accepted just as you are.

We’re always learning and trying to do better. Thank you for being honest with us, even when it’s hard. That honesty helps us grow and strengthens our connection as a family.

We love you — always and no matter what.

I like this, and I really like @california boy’s idea of a painting about them. Stephen Covey said seek first to understand, then to be understood. I’d dial that back a bit and settle for the more humble goal of seek first to see, then to be seen.

Not to beat a dead tapir, but the reason the BoM as a gift backfired had two components. First, it was more about you being seen and appreciated for what is meaningful to you, and less about making them feel seen and loved unconditionally.  Second, in LDS religious practice, giving away BoMs is a missionary activity. It is something you specifically do to people you are trying to convert. They knew this and rightly or wrongly, felt it.

[CV75]

14 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Great point.  Once we get past this hurdle, hopefully we can all have constructive conversations about mutual boundaries and respect.  We can work better on not bringing a religious tone into conversations and they can do better not bringing as much angst and assumptions 

If I could drill down a little bit, I don't think it is the religious/spiritualist tone that are in the conversations, but the angst and assumptions (affecting boundaries and mutual respect) the parties bring to the topic, toxifying its tone.

I find that the character and speech of religious/spiritualist people are unavoidably imbued with their respective themes, language, or sentiment, even when actions and comments are not explicitly religious in nature. It is a key part of who they are. Our spirituality underlies all of these, and this is where grace comes in handy. It garnishes our relationships just as virtue garnishes our thoughts. Now if I know someone is triggered by the simple tone of religiosity, I can convey the same message without it. This is where what I am, or what I have become as a person, is stronger than whatever I do, think or say.

And if everyone is in a "kingdom" where they need to take a break from the topic and the tone until they can move on, that is a manifestation of grace as well. I think it is better to simply stop conflict and contention rather than escalate them in search of a resolution.

Edited May 17, 2025 by CV75

[Rain]

45 minutes ago, Analytics said:

I like this, and I really like @california boy’s idea of a painting about them. Stephen Covey said seek first to understand, then to be understood. I’d dial that back a bit and settle for the more humble goal of seek first to see, then to be seen.

This is why I recommend his 7 Habits book.  Sometimes this is a great thought, but hard to put in place.  He takes you through the skills of how to to it.

45 minutes ago, Analytics said:

Not to beat a dead tapir, but the reason the BoM as a gift backfired had two components. First, it was more about you being seen and appreciated for what is meaningful to you, and less about making them feel seen and loved unconditionally.  Second, in LDS religious practice, giving away BoMs is a missionary activity. It is something you specifically do to people you are trying to convert. They knew this and rightly or wrongly, felt it.

 

[Notatbm]

20 hours ago, california boy said:

Live your life honestly and truthfully.  There is nothing shameful about trusting yourself and your own personal relationship with God.  I think there is a very good possibility that the experience you are having will be a blessing to someone else who feels rejected by your family as my sister has been for me.  

Thanks.  Yea I just do my thing. Can’t get all upset that people don’t agree with my life choices. Oh well.

your situation has got to be pretty rough. I’m a lightweight in that dept. my family would go absolutely insane in their reaction. Hell I was literally called an apostate for not going on a mission of all things lol. Yea I was the worst person ever lol. I can only imagine their reaction to other things. 

[Maestrophil]

2 hours ago, Analytics said:

I like this, and I really like @california boy’s idea of a painting about them. Stephen Covey said seek first to understand, then to be understood. I’d dial that back a bit and settle for the more humble goal of seek first to see, then to be seen.

Not to beat a dead tapir, but the reason the BoM as a gift backfired had two components. First, it was more about you being seen and appreciated for what is meaningful to you, and less about making them feel seen and loved unconditionally.  Second, in LDS religious practice, giving away BoMs is a missionary activity. It is something you specifically do to people you are trying to convert. They knew this and rightly or wrongly, felt it.

Good point

[Chum]

5 hours ago, Analytics said:

Not to beat a dead tapir, but the reason the BoM as a gift backfired had two components. First, it was more about you being seen and appreciated for what is meaningful to you, and less about making them feel seen and loved unconditionally.  Second, in LDS religious practice, giving away BoMs is a missionary activity. It is something you specifically do to people you are trying to convert. They knew this and rightly or wrongly, felt it.

These are really good observations.  I'd like to buffer them with this: As far as the parents are making errors, there is worth in those errors.  People who don't make these kinds of mistakes now - they've already made them.

Edited May 17, 2025 by Chum

[JVW]

I've been thinking about this over the weekend and I thought of this anecdote.

John has a kid, Bill, who he loves very much. John thinks that Bill will be happy in life if they make a comfortable salary and is partial to the field of engineering. He can imagine Bill developing a product that changes the world, or working at NASA. So he puts money into a college fund for Bill and watches Mark Rober videos with him on youtube. One day he sees an expensive Lego set on sale for half off and buys it for $500 as a gift. John works at a print shop and spends hours designing a beautiful wrapping paper for the gift in order to make the experience even more special for Bill.

The following day arrives and John gives Bill the gift. Bill opens it and his face becomes pained. "You insincere jerk. How dare you try to manipulate me even more into the field of engineering by giving me this fancy Lego set! You are so thoughtless, callous, and without true love for me in your heart. I hate this gift and I don't really want to associate with you anymore." In an effort to repair the relationship, he apologizes to his son and understands how his son could view the gift in this light. His son tosses the gift in the trash but continues to associate with his dad.

What, exactly, should John apologize for in this situation? I do not think that John should apologize for spending his money on the Lego set, for giving the Lego set as a gift, or for the time and effort and love he put into decorating the gift. I do think he should approach an apology trying to communicate his empathy for his son, his desire to change his perceived manipulative behavior, and to recommit to his efforts to build a strong relationship with Bill.

What, if anything, should Bill apologize for in this situation? How about being an ungrateful, entitled brat? How about apologizing for not handling the situation with some decorum and dignity? Just a thought.

Of course, this is an anecdote intended to illustrate principles, I am not directly equating it for obvious reasons: Lego's aren't proselytizing tools, scriptures do not cost $500, wrapping paper is not a painting, etc. But I hope you can see my point here.

ETA: He could have easily, graciously accepted the gift and then tossed it quietly in the bin with a plan to have a serious conversation about appropriate gift giving with his dad. He could have saved the gift to regift to someone he knows who loves Legos. He could have rejected it and said that the gift wasn't a good fit for him and he'd prefer to have a gift receipt or for his dad to spend the money on something, or someone, else.

 

Edited May 19, 2025 by JVW

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, JVW said:

I've been thinking about this over the weekend and I thought of this anecdote.

John has a kid, Bill, who he loves very much. John thinks that Bill will be happy in life if they make a comfortable salary and is partial to the field of engineering. He can imagine Bill developing a product that changes the world, or working at NASA. So he puts money into a college fund for Bill and watches Mark Rober videos with him on youtube. One day he sees an expensive Lego set on sale for half off and buys it for $500 as a gift. John works at a print shop and spends hours designing a beautiful wrapping paper for the gift in order to make the experience even more special for Bill.

The following day arrives and John gives Bill the gift. Bill opens it and his face becomes pained. "You insincere jerk. How dare you try to manipulate me even more into the field of engineering by giving me this fancy Lego set! You are so thoughtless, callous, and without true love for me in your heart. I hate this gift and I don't really want to associate with you anymore." In an effort to repair the relationship, he apologizes to his son and understands how his son could view the gift in this light. His son tosses the gift in the trash but continues to associate with his dad.

What, exactly, should John apologize for in this situation? I do not think that John should apologize for spending his money on the Lego set, for giving the Lego set as a gift, or for the time and effort and love he put into decorating the gift. I do think he should approach an apology trying to communicate his empathy for his son, his desire to change his perceived manipulative behavior, and to recommit to his efforts to build a strong relationship with Bill.

What, if anything, should Bill apologize for in this situation? How about being an ungrateful, entitled brat? How about apologizing for not handling the situation with some decorum and dignity? Just a thought.

Of course, this is an anecdote intended to illustrate principles, I am not directly equating it for obvious reasons: Lego's aren't proselytizing tools, scriptures do not cost $500, wrapping paper is not a painting, etc. But I hope you can see my point here.

ETA: He could have easily, graciously accepted the gift and then tossed it quietly in the bin with a plan to have a serious conversation about appropriate gift giving with his dad. He could have saved the gift to regift to someone he knows who loves Legos. He could have rejected it and said that the gift wasn't a good fit for him and he'd prefer to have a gift receipt or for his dad to spend the money on something, or someone, else.

 

How about this- 

son gets a great job in construction management following college education that dad paid for.  Gets promoted, lives in a dream location, all the stuff.  Decides to quit career and get a certificate to be massage therapist. 

Dad worries about sons future but demonstrates respect for sons choice and finds reason to celebrate sons choice to chase his dream and know his own mind. 
 

Son claims he is happier than ever, Dad has one foot in believing him and one foot wondering how this can be true when son makes 1/3 what he made previously. keeps negative thoughts to self. 
 

son tells dad a year later, “your support means more to me than anything”. 
 

What if dad gives son a construction programme for Xmas this year? Son might let dad know it’s hurtful because the gift suggests dad does not trust son’s path and appears possibly passively aggressive in communication. (This isn’t bratty it’s honest.)  Dad can self reflect and correct.  Hopefully back on path to mutual respect. 

 

 

[JVW]

52 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

How about this- 

son gets a great job in construction management following college education that dad paid for.  Gets promoted, lives in a dream location, all the stuff.  Decides to quit career and get a certificate to be massage therapist. 

Dad worries about sons future but demonstrates respect for sons choice and finds reason to celebrate sons choice to chase his dream and know his own mind. 
 

Son claims he is happier than ever, Dad has one foot in believing him and one foot wondering how this can be true when son makes 1/3 what he made previously. keeps negative thoughts to self. 
 

son tells dad a year later, “your support means more to me than anything”. 
 

What if dad gives son a construction programme for Xmas this year? Son might let dad know it’s hurtful because the gift suggests dad does not trust son’s path and appears possibly passively aggressive in communication. (This isn’t bratty it’s honest.)  Dad can self reflect and correct.  Hopefully back on path to mutual respect. 

That's fair, but I still don't think it warrants an apology for giving the actual gift. What if dad gives son something massage related and the son still takes issue with it? "I feel like you're being passive aggressive in your non-approval of my massage career path by giving me this massage related gift." It doesn't matter what the gift is. The giving of the gift comes from a place of sweetness (and I'm assuming that because the OP is very sweet). The problem that needs to be apologized for has nothing to do with the gift, the gift is just the catalyst that's causing the deeper issues to be revealed.

[MustardSeed]

4 minutes ago, JVW said:

What if dad gives son something massage related and the son still takes issue with it? "I feel like you're being passive aggressive in your non-approval of my massage career path by giving me this massage related gift."

That makes no sense at all.  It’s not even what happened with the OP.  If the receiver is a spoiled brat and doesn’t receive any gift well or is mentally ill and doesn’t compute support when dad gives a massage table as a gift then we are dealing with an entirely different issue entirely.  

 

7 minutes ago, JVW said:

The giving of the gift comes from a place of sweetness

We still don’t know fully and honestly what the gift was about.  OP never answered that question specifically or with depth. OP said giving the Book of Mormons (which every single member should understand this is a proselytizing act) was strictly sharing artwork - I absolutely believe there’s more to it. 

 

8 minutes ago, JVW said:

the OP is very sweet

Agreed.  Sweet people can do things that are upsetting though, especially due to the fact that we will hide ourselves from ourselves- quite often, in fact.  
 

9 minutes ago, JVW said:

The problem that needs to be apologized for has nothing to do with the gift, the gift is just the catalyst

I’ll respectfully disagree with your assessment that no apology is needed. Insensitivity at least. But I agree that the gift is a reflection of a deeper unexpressed need on the givers part.  
 

To be clear, OP sounds to me like an awesome parent TBH.  Just being willing to ask the question here is super cool, and writing such a loving letter is additionally Very Cool. 

[Amulek]

On 5/16/2025 at 3:26 PM, Maestrophil said:

Here is our draft of an apology for the kiddos:

We want to reach out and sincerely apologize for the gift we gave you — the decorated Book of Mormon. At the time, we saw it as a heartfelt gesture, especially with your mom’s beautiful artwork. But we’ve come to realize that it may have carried a different message than we intended — one that made some of you feel unseen, hurt, or pressured to return to something you’ve chosen to step away from.

That was never our intention, and we’re truly sorry.

We also recognize that some of you have experienced real pain and harm connected to the Church. We want to acknowledge that, and we’re sorry for not being more sensitive to it. Your experiences are valid, and your feelings matter deeply to us. We don’t want to minimize that pain or give the impression that we haven’t heard or understood it.

Please know that we love you unconditionally. Our relationship with you is not based on belief or membership — it’s based on who you are, and that is enough. You don’t have to change for us to love you fully. We want each of you to feel free to be your true self, and to know that you are accepted just as you are.

We’re always learning and trying to do better. Thank you for being honest with us, even when it’s hard. That honesty helps us grow and strengthens our connection as a family.

We love you — always and no matter what.

I think this sounds pretty good. However, you are going to want to replace all of the em dashes with regular hyphens. 

This many em dashes in this short of a piece screams ChatGPT to me, and the last thing you want is for your kids think you asked an LLM to come up with an apology for you. That won't help them believe you are being sincere. 

I would also remove the text in the first paragraph which reads "[...] - the decorated Book of Mormon." They know which gift you are talking about; you don't need to name it specifically. Its presence sets off my AI sensors as well, so probably dump that as well to be safe.

 

Edited May 19, 2025 by Amulek

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, JVW said:

I've been thinking about this over the weekend and I thought of this anecdote.

John has a kid, Bill, who he loves very much. John thinks that Bill will be happy in life if they make a comfortable salary and is partial to the field of engineering. He can imagine Bill developing a product that changes the world, or working at NASA. So he puts money into a college fund for Bill and watches Mark Rober videos with him on youtube. One day he sees an expensive Lego set on sale for half off and buys it for $500 as a gift. John works at a print shop and spends hours designing a beautiful wrapping paper for the gift in order to make the experience even more special for Bill.

The following day arrives and John gives Bill the gift. Bill opens it and his face becomes pained. "You insincere jerk. How dare you try to manipulate me even more into the field of engineering by giving me this fancy Lego set! You are so thoughtless, callous, and without true love for me in your heart. I hate this gift and I don't really want to associate with you anymore." In an effort to repair the relationship, he apologizes to his son and understands how his son could view the gift in this light. His son tosses the gift in the trash but continues to associate with his dad.

What, exactly, should John apologize for in this situation? I do not think that John should apologize for spending his money on the Lego set, for giving the Lego set as a gift, or for the time and effort and love he put into decorating the gift. I do think he should approach an apology trying to communicate his empathy for his son, his desire to change his perceived manipulative behavior, and to recommit to his efforts to build a strong relationship with Bill.

What, if anything, should Bill apologize for in this situation? How about being an ungrateful, entitled brat? How about apologizing for not handling the situation with some decorum and dignity? Just a thought.

Of course, this is an anecdote intended to illustrate principles, I am not directly equating it for obvious reasons: Lego's aren't proselytizing tools, scriptures do not cost $500, wrapping paper is not a painting, etc. But I hope you can see my point here.

ETA: He could have easily, graciously accepted the gift and then tossed it quietly in the bin with a plan to have a serious conversation about appropriate gift giving with his dad. He could have saved the gift to regift to someone he knows who loves Legos. He could have rejected it and said that the gift wasn't a good fit for him and he'd prefer to have a gift receipt or for his dad to spend the money on something, or someone, else.

 

John needs to stop seeing Bill as an extension of himself such that he is planning his child’s future based on what John thinks would be best.

I’ve known parents that give gifts primarily to try to steer their children into some expected career path. They often end up estranged. Yeah, sometimes people give clueless gifts but those are easy to laugh off. The ones that are designed to press a specific outcome that the gift giver wants to steer the gift receiver towards are manipulative. You can’t just toss the gift aside. There is an implication that if you don’t accept the path the giver wants that you have failed them. Coming from a stranger it is easy to ignore. Coming from a family member or friend it estranges you.

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

John needs to stop seeing Bill as an extension of himself such that he is planning his child’s future based on what John thinks would be best.

I’ve known parents that give gifts primarily to try to steer their children into some expected career path. They often end up estranged. Yeah, sometimes people give clueless gifts but those are easy to laugh off. The ones that are designed to press a specific outcome that the gift giver wants to steer the gift receiver towards are manipulative. You can’t just toss the gift aside. There is an implication that if you don’t accept the path the giver wants that you have failed them. Coming from a stranger it is easy to ignore. Coming from a family member or friend it estranges you.

This comic is what happens when a parent sees a child as an extension of themselves.

[Maestrophil]

19 hours ago, Amulek said:

I think this sounds pretty good. However, you are going to want to replace all of the em dashes with regular hyphens. 

This many em dashes in this short of a piece screams ChatGPT to me, and the last thing you want is for your kids think you asked an LLM to come up with an apology for you. That won't help them believe you are being sincere. 

I would also remove the text in the first paragraph which reads "[...] - the decorated Book of Mormon." They know which gift you are talking about; you don't need to name it specifically. Its presence sets off my AI sensors as well, so probably dump that as well to be safe.

 

great suggestions - thank you

[Doctor Steuss]

On 5/16/2025 at 6:15 AM, Amulek said:

I have personally received plenty of gifts that were either unwanted or un/under-appreciated (e.g., lottery scratch-offs, bottles of alcohol (in varying degrees of quality), a DVD of Battlefield Earth, etc.). Somehow, I was able to accept all of those gifts without assuming sinister motives on the part of the gift givers. Is it nice when somebody knows you well enough to give a gift you really love - of course it is. But sometimes people give gifts that are meaningful to them. That's just how people are. If you get something you don't care for, then feel free to return, re-gift, recycle, or do whatever you want with it, and then move on with your life. The world won't end.

 

Oh definitely.  It's pretty standard fair where I work for wine and champagne to be the default holiday gift.  I've never given a second thought to receiving them, beyond "that was thoughtful of them to get me something."  If one of my close friends had given me wine as a gift, knowing that my (ex)wife was a recovering alcoholic, and I had told them on many occasions that I don't keep any alcohol in my home, that would be different.

These weren't some benign gifts from coworkers; these were a specific gift, that had a specific meaning and connotation about a specific thing which the kids had specific feelings about, given to them by their parents.  When I offer my perspective, context generally matters.

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, Doctor Steuss said:

These weren't some benign gifts from coworkers; these were a specific gift, that had a specific meaning and connotation about a specific thing which the kids had specific feelings about, given to them by their parents. When I offer my perspective, context generally matters.

Context does matter. And from what I have read, I think some of the kids here are being whiny babies about the whole thing and blowing it way out of proportion.

If their parents had been been inundating them with LDS paraphernalia, day in and day out, that would be one thing, but that isn't the case. This was a one time deal, and it included a message that was overwhelmingly supportive and loving, along with the kind of warm, noncommittal, open-hearted invitation that I think someone ought to be able to tolerate without flipping out. 

Going back to your football analogy - which, as a non-sports lover, I can definitely identify with - what if the football-loving friend in your story wasn’t just any fan, but, say, Tom Brady? And instead of a generic jersey, he gave you one that he personally signed - not because he expected you to become a football fan, but because it was a heartfelt gesture from someone for whom football is a deep part of who they are?

Even if you don’t care for football, you should be able to recognize that the gift isn’t really about the sport - it’s about connection. It’s them saying, “This is something important to me, and I want to share part of myself with you.”

To me, that’s the spirit of the kind of gesture we’re talking about here. It's not about coercion or pressure; it's just a personal and meaningful expression of love, even if it doesn’t perfectly align with the recipient’s interests or personal beliefs.

 

[BlueDreams]

21 hours ago, Amulek said:

Context does matter. And from what I have read, I think some of the kids here are being whiny babies about the whole thing and blowing it way out of proportion.

If their parents had been been inundating them with LDS paraphernalia, day in and day out, that would be one thing, but that isn't the case. This was a one time deal, and it included a message that was overwhelmingly supportive and loving, along with the kind of warm, noncommittal, open-hearted invitation that I think someone ought to be able to tolerate without flipping out. 

Going back to your football analogy - which, as a non-sports lover, I can definitely identify with - what if the football-loving friend in your story wasn’t just any fan, but, say, Tom Brady? And instead of a generic jersey, he gave you one that he personally signed - not because he expected you to become a football fan, but because it was a heartfelt gesture from someone for whom football is a deep part of who they are?

Even if you don’t care for football, you should be able to recognize that the gift isn’t really about the sport - it’s about connection. It’s them saying, “This is something important to me, and I want to share part of myself with you.”

To me, that’s the spirit of the kind of gesture we’re talking about here. It's not about coercion or pressure; it's just a personal and meaningful expression of love, even if it doesn’t perfectly align with the recipient’s interests or personal beliefs.

 

Funny enough this is the example that makes me more empathetic to both ends in this. 

I do think people can be oversensitive about gifts that obviously show sincerity in giving them. 

BUT I also really don't care for football. At all. Even if Tom Brady gave said hypothetical gift to me, he'd probably get a canned smile while I'm thinking of ways to regift it to one of my plethora of brothers who likes the sport. Anyone who knows me, knows football ain't remotely my thang. I would question why in the world they give me this gift of all gifts. 

It also had me thinking of my mom....who is not a good gift giver. Either we tell her exactly what we want and she gets that or the money for it (not bad) OR she gives exactly what she would want for us, even if it doesn't match us as people at all. For example, she gave us once a BYU themed baby outfit. I don't really do college paraphernalia and my husband has some (justified) sour feelings around BYU. She knew this already because she also tried to "gift" us BYU themed truffles for our wedding buffet table thinking it would be "cute" sense we both went to BYU. I didn't assume the worse from her, but it did feel symbolic of general experiences with her that indicates for me that she struggles to really connect with me (and others) more deeply.  

 

Whether we like it or not, gifts can say more than we mean to. From what I've seen, even poorly chosen gifts usually come from good places.  There is both a need for grace from the gift receiver to assume good intentions even if it's something we don't like or want as well as better care in what we gift to those we care about. 

 

 

With luv, 

BD

[Tacenda]

On 5/17/2025 at 8:54 AM, Notatbm said:

Thanks.  Yea I just do my thing. Can’t get all upset that people don’t agree with my life choices. Oh well.

your situation has got to be pretty rough. I’m a lightweight in that dept. my family would go absolutely insane in their reaction. Hell I was literally called an apostate for not going on a mission of all things lol. Yea I was the worst person ever lol. I can only imagine their reaction to other things. 

You got this Notatbm, be secure in knowing yourself and keep being you! I haven't followed the thread entirely so forgive me if I over stepped here. 

[Stargazer]

On 5/13/2025 at 9:38 PM, bluebell said:

I have to admit I also wondered the same as some other posters:  Why gift them a BOM?   That kind of seems like giving a vegetarian a steak dinner, a Jewish person a beautiful cross necklace, or an ex-member giving a bottle of wine to their active latter-day saint parents.

I'd love to hear your answers to MS's questions, in order to understand where the gift was coming from. That might help with the question of why it didn't land well for some of your kids.   

Before my wife died, she and I together organized her funeral, considered speakers, hymns, and so on. Because most of our children are estranged from the Church, and since they would be there, she wanted the plan of salvation laid out for their benefit. She asked her best friend, Cora, to give the concluding talk, and they closeted together to consult on all that she wanted said. She may have been giving vegetarians as steak, so to speak, but she was very concerned that her children hear about what she felt needed to be heard. This was her last chance to bear testimony to them, although Cora didn't say it in a way that it was discernably being directed at them.

I didn't hear any negative feedback about this, later on. I think they expected to hear about the gospel. I don't think it moved them in any significant way.

[Stargazer]

On 5/15/2025 at 9:21 PM, JVW said:

LDS believe that those who suffer in hell are the wicked who will be paying the penalty for their own sins during the millenial reign of Jesus Christ on the Earth before they get resurrected in time for final judgment.

Yes, but suffering for one's own sins must be done in both body and spirit, so that suffering for them will occur after they are resurrected. Only an immortal body can withstand that degree of suffering -- D&C 19:17,18 -> "But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink" - emphasis added

[Rain]

On 6/13/2025 at 10:06 AM, Stargazer said:

Before my wife died, she and I together organized her funeral, considered speakers, hymns, and so on. Because most of our children are estranged from the Church, and since they would be there, she wanted the plan of salvation laid out for their benefit. She asked her best friend, Cora, to give the concluding talk, and they closeted together to consult on all that she wanted said. She may have been giving vegetarians as steak, so to speak, but she was very concerned that her children hear about what she felt needed to be heard. This was her last chance to bear testimony to them, although Cora didn't say it in a way that it was discernably being directed at them.

I didn't hear any negative feedback about this, later on. I think they expected to hear about the gospel. I don't think it moved them in any significant way.

I expect there to be gospel talk at my parents funeral.  It is who they are. I expect to hear of their faith, their callings, their joy in family history and the temple. It would go right along with how they lived. I'll be honest though - if I knew they were doing it as their last chance to bear testimony to me I would feel it was manipulative and I would never, ever tell which ever one of them was left how I felt about it unless they asked me directly and really wanted to know. 

Edited June 14, 2025 by Rain