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Maestrophil

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Everything posted by Maestrophil

  1. I definitely am not saying that you haven’t experienced those things and that former members don’t experience judgment from members. I am just saying I think there is some truth to some people seeing judgment when it isn’t intended. I am sure there have been times when things I have done might’ve come across as judgmental when I didn’t intend them that way.
  2. Thanks for the reply. I am truly sorry that has been your experience both in the church and in your family. That sounds like it would be very painful and would leave a lot of lasting psychic pain. I can tell you that I have never held the church or belief as a weapon against any of my kids - they might feel that they were judged simply because, as a family we expected everyone to participate in church on Sunday and FHE on Mondays with us while they lived in our home. But that is the extent of it. It's funny because IF my kids feel like we pressured them, I often got comments form members of the church who would say that part of the reason they thought my kids were not active/serving missions, it because I didn't force them or tell them the HAD to. It seems you can't win either way. Ironically, I know your hurt in the reverse as my parents left the church and for a long while were quite antagonistic about it and I was told very negative things about my intelligence, and put down for my choices - including that to serve a mission. Things are much better now, but I still know the sting of being told you are dumb, wrong and a failure for your choices. Luckily, all my children still come to the home willingly and there is much love expressed all around, which I am grateful for. I just wish I knew how to purge any of the bad feelings that might exist on the part of my kids, and want to act in a way that ensures they know I accept them as they are - which is why I genuinely asked for your advice/suggestions. I hope time and circumstances bring healing and harmony to you and yours!
  3. I didn't choose this quote as the only one I am addressing here, but rather to just single you out to ask some real sincere questions as a member and parent who wants to be better while still maintaining my faith and membership. To respond to the OP question - yes I have seen this trend among the generation spoken of, and those a little older and younger as well. It makes me sad and concerned at the same time. Especially as a parent who has over half his children in full rejection mode of the church (4 of 6), and the remaining children in a very 'slightly' LDS mode (2). None served missions (and I never condemned them for their decisions to not go). So what do you recommend a person like me - a GenX dad who is active and believing - can do to improve the experience for my kids and to have them either return to faith, or feel less bitter towards the church? It's an honest question. I express continually that I love and accept them even if they live very different standards than I do, and I honestly think none of them doubt they are loved by my wife and I. Still - the 4 who have left activity are very demeaning and dismissive when talking about the church and even its members. So what more can be done? Especially given that: - I don't think the church will ever change chastity definitions to allow for any kind of sanctioned sexual relations between homosexual individuals. - I won't join in with any badmouthing or condemnation of the 1st Presidency or Q12. I can have respectable dialog about feelings and reactions to their words and policies, but will always stop short of accusing them of being racist, homophobic, or liars. What do you suggest from your perspective? Is there truly anything a member/parent like myself can do, or is the gulf too wide and the hatred/resentment of the church too definite? Could your family/ward/stake have done anything different to make it so you had a better outcome and disposition towards the church - or do you think the fact that the church has the truth claims it does simply force a gulf and you would have felt disillusioned regardless?
  4. Totally understand this - and, while I still don't have cracks in my personal shelf over this, I understand why people would. Especially if you mentioned transgressions you knew of before a calling was issued and nothing came of it - that would be really upsetting to me as well. I think you hit the nail on the head when you talked about the gift needing to be received and used - my personal belief and observation is that most leaders just 'do the work' to get things done when issuing callings and look for available and willing participants and call them. I think there is a lot of spiritual work involved in getting real discernment and a lot of introspection and quiet reflection time is often required. I think often, this doesn't happen. I know that I am guilty of presenting names to the bishop for callings just based on initially feeling good about an available person without going much further than that. That said, I think there are other scenarios possible too that don't require a failure in discernment. - for instance, a person could be worthy when called, but then make a terrible choice a la King David.
  5. Navidad. Thank you for sharing your beliefs and testimony. Very refreshing and different from my other encounters with evangelicals. And while some LDS may disagree with you, my personal feeling is that you and I are very much on the same page for the most part. I believe that all Christian denominations are part of the Body of Christ and that the fruits of the Spirit and the Atonement are available to all who turn to Jesus. I acknowledge that our differences likely will come from the LDS doctrinal view of degrees of glory in heaven and who will attain to the highest of those. While I, as a Latter-day Saint believe that before final judgement, all must make certain covenants with God through ordinances to attain that highest level (this is likely where our major difference lies), I also believe that all will have a chance to receive these ordinances or reject them from a God who is the only one fit to judge and is full of mercy. I also believe that the majority of God's children will receive glory in a heavenly home regardless of denomination, thanks to the merits of Christ. In this life, I don't believe the ordinances received make anyone any more righteous or worthy than any other believer. We are all travelers towards our Heavenly home, albeit in different vehicles.
  6. Navidad - As I mentioned, I hope I am not throwing a wrench in the OP's thread - but I welcome hearing more. I also definitely am not trying to imply by my paraphrased amalgamation of my previous encounters with evangelical protesters that I have some kind of 'magic bullet' of superior knowledge to them or imply any superiority on my part. Rather, I never seem to get to a point where I get satisfactory answers that I can understand on a logical level. Please help me see how I can better understand the evangelical view of how I can't be saved by Jesus within the framework of the LDS faith (assuming that is your position). I promise my only questions will be to clarify and understand and not to argue. 🙂 I always fee if I can understand truly where someone comes from, even if I don't agree, it makes me a more well-rounded, kinder person.
  7. I have been saying this for years too - slopes can be slippery
  8. Actually - this probably needs it's own thread as I don't want to derail - but I always find talking with these protesters interesting (when they are willing to actually talk civilly). I always get in a feedback loop with them, because I admit, to their dismay, that it is the Grace of Jesus that saves me and that my works amount to nothing at all in the process, relatively speaking. So I confirm that they believe that once you have accepted Jesus as your Savior, that you are instantly saved and it can't be taken away - there is no cost or action needed, right? They say yes. So I then say "I wholly accept Jesus and that He paid the price to save me and I am saved". They bristle at that and then say, well that isn't an honest acceptance if you continue to go to the temple, sustain the prophet/Q12 etc. I then remind them that they said even a murderer who is saved can murder again and still be saved - they reply 'yes' - so I say then why do I need to change my behavior to be saved, but an adulterer, or murderer doesn't. They tell me it's not the same because my actions show I am not accepting Jesus. I say, "and a murderer killing someone shows they accept Jesus?" And around and around it goes. Till I say thanks and wish them well, or they start yelling at me, whichever comes first. 😛
  9. I would agree that fear is very primary and primal. I think there are times sadness can exist without fear and that sadness/sorrow can drive anger. But I think those two emotions might cover all underlying anger
  10. 1. Anger is a secondary emotion that is used to cover up sadness or shame or some other primary emotion. 2. I don't feel in control until I identify the REAl primary emotion I feel and deal with that instead. I can process being sad or embarrassed - Anger, in my case, just needs to be expressed or repressed - I don't have good tools to diffuse it. 3. Often - and it lasways leads me to search for and fix what ˆreally ˆhappened in my heart and mind. 4. I don't understand the concept of being angry at God - either He is all-knowing and understands the purpose of all my trails - in which case, I need to tust Him - or he isn't and then He isn't God at all. If I acknowledge God, I don't see how I can be angry at Him. I can be sad with some of the things I pass through and let that turn into anger... but see pts. 1 and 2
  11. Lobbying pressure from local ice cream and fro-yo places must have gotten to them! 😛
  12. For me, and I think similar sentiment has already been expressed, apologetics helped me expand my mind to the possibilities that could be - it helped me be less myopic. I think we as humans can be very set on what is FACT be they pro or anti religion - and their one way of seeing things has to be THE way. Apologetics within the church (not all apologetics, but most of what I found at FAIR) has helped me to broaden my mind and increase my faith that there are multiple possible explanations for many things, and I don't need to fret if I can't nail one explanation down as fact. I can hold out that the is AN explanation out there somewhere and my faith is sufficient until that truth is revealed to me. In other words it created fields of plausibility that buttress my faith.
  13. My band played those same places - I actually had a bishop once tell me , "I wouldn't go anywhere the Savior wouldn't go" in response to me inviting him to one of my gigs. And here I thought the Lord hung out with lepers, publicans, and sinners. 🙂 Edited to add - having played the Zephyr really dates us though, doesn't it. 🙂
  14. Here is where I could take offense should I choose to at these lyrics (I don't really choose to get offended very often :-)). - It's a lot like the signs "In this house - we believe in science, love is love etc." The way they are worded implies that we , the straight listeners, are not already teaching our kids these things, and they NEED to be converted. It implies pretty directly that the listener is a homophobe and is teaching it to their children by default - just like those signs seem to imply that those 'other' homes where YOU live are rubes who hate science and gays if they don't believe or express themselves like I do. I see the intent of taking the steam out of the trope of gay men coming for our kids by writing a 'parody' song - but I also agree with some that it can come across as mean-spirited and 'othering" if that is even a word. 🙂
  15. I have read this post and others, and I still don't get what the main arguments are against the church having wealth. Can the OP list bullet points of what he finds objectionable? 1. The thought of poor being asked to give when the church has money? 2. The thought that having money is against Jesus' teachings? 3. The thought that the church is not giving enough to charity? ???
  16. I agree - and add to that the fact that no concession will ever be enough, as people will always be clamoring for the cause du jour - My question was honest - I see any path towards trying to please the masses rather than hold to gospel principles as a losing and endless battle. If I believed the dissatisfied would be satisfied by honest expressions of love and acceptance from the church while still holding to the standard of worthiness for temple attendance and full fellowship, I would not feel so doubtful of the ability of the church to her do or be enough.
  17. Again - my question is - what is the change? What will be enough? Is the ANY way the church can stand by heterosexual marriage being the only acceptable avenue for sexual relations (while still remaining temple worthy) and not have people be upset? I've yet to hear anyone that is upset at the church for their stance on LGBTQ issues give me a hypothetical that would be acceptable to them that would not allow for SS relationships with active sex lives.
  18. I agree with much of the sentiment of what you are saying here, but also think you are creating a false dichotomy. I certainly don't know how to address this issue globally as far as the church goes - my hope and faith is that more inspired and educated minds than mine are working on the issue. That said, I think the dichotomy I mentioned is that you state the church has to amend its stance on queer relationships, sexually speaking, OR tell queer people that the only way they can be happy is outside of the church. Not necessarily true. Some I know have found hope and solace in living an asexual life (both homo and heterosexuals) having hope things will be for their good in the eternal scope of things. They have sacrificed their sexuality on the altar as it were. Who am I or you to say those people are living a lie? I also am not naive enough to think that this is universally an acceptable path for even many gay people. It is a hard life to choose (the abstinence, not the SSA - I know that isn't chosen). The part I agree with, is that part of the compassion comes from not condemning or judging those who feel they need to leave - The message I convey to my gay family/kids is 1. I love you always and accept you for who you are. 2. I totally understand and respect that you might feel the best way to live your best authentic life is outside the church. 3. I wish you only joy in your journey. 5. I do believe God can help you live a satisfying life in the gospel, should you pray and receive a personal witness you should stay - but that is between you and Him. 4. I love you always and respect you for who you are. 🙂 I have heard a few GA's express things along this lines in some private conversations I have been a part of, and would love to hear more of that tone from the pulpit.
  19. I think you are on to something here - If HJW was still a full-on traditionally 'safe' member - I bet the family would have been more willing to go - but I wouldn't be surprised if they see accepting the invitation to another faith as supporting HJWs 'slip into the dark' I used to play guitar for other denominations too, and from time to time, still do play for the Unity church here in UT. I find it a nice experience - even though I got booted once a long time ago at one church once the pastor discovered my LDS-ness. 🙂
  20. Negative - I was told the new EQ press would let me know everything.
  21. Like water torture! 🙂 OK, so the verdict is... 1st counselor in the EQ. So you guys were pretty on the money. Thanks for helping me learn something new about the calling process!
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