Maestrophil

I don't think we owe our loved ones anything but our unconditional love. My reason is not their reason either - they need to find their own reason and use their own judgment, and come to whatever conclusion they wish with their agency, just as I do - then I am to love them and leave judgement to God in His way and His time. If they chose to do that outside of the church, I understand why and still love and accept them. I don't love them because they are gay or not gay, I love them because they have great worth to me for who they are. And I did not elevate scripture the way you said - I

Unless it is

I say it because I have read it. And have received a personal witness it is true. I do not engage in scriptural beating or bashing with anyone, let alone my children. And even if I produce scripture that I read as condemning homosexual sexual sex, will you accept them, or is your goal just to keep arguing and turning the issue round and round?

I conceded that I could come up with values of my own accord without needing a god who would not set those values for me. But my values then would differ from yours, and yours from your neighbors, etc. Each person would be a law unto themselves.

Exactly. It would be very hard for me to believe it came from God - but I would study, fast and pray with an open heart. But if it was given to me to know it came from God, I would adapt and rejoice.

I mentioned very clearly that I suffer personally because of this as do my children. I have skin in the game and am trying to learn to be as kind and loving as I can. I take it very seriously and reverently.

But again I ask you - who makes the standards? You? The god you mentioned? How can there be standards without someone having to go without something they desire sometimes? Almost every rule or law requires sacrifice of something. Some want or desire. Yes, God wants us to experience suffering in this life and to struggle to learn right from wrong. That’s my belief.

Just like I don’t t think parents who parent that way offer much. I see it all the time. “Best friend” parents who tell their kids they love them but install no boundaries for fear of hurting or offending the kids. Makes for entitled, lazy, selfish kids in my experience.

Which isn’t much

No it isn’t at all. I/we are saying that we believe truly that GOD said it. You don’t. So it’s a classic battle of “is not” vs “is too”. Your position is just as valid AND invalid as mine. But it is either disingenuous or ignorant or both to say my belief is only there because “other people said so”. That doesn’t take into account scriptural text, and personal spiritual experiences. Otherwise your belief likewise is only there because other people said so.

It’s not a matter of what I want God to be or not be. It is a matter of what I think He is. I see NO evidence of such a God in Judeo Christian scripture when taken as a whole. if I reject all of that or create my own god, then no, the idea isn’t offensive, but it doesn’t offer me much either because there is no striving in such a god - just being, and I am doing that anyway. I can learn to love myself unconditionally without a god - and to be basically decent, but I can’t get a hard metric for Truth and Justice or how (or what) to overcome for a god that just sits there and lets me be

Then I respectfully submit- without a hint of snark (in case some does come across) - what is the point of that kind of a God at all? I can do all of those things, and come to those conclusions myself. It just seems like dressed up agnosticism to me - which, as I said, I can respect the choice to be - but I don't have much use for a God who doesn't give me something bigger than I can do as a natural man. I do believe Descartes used his experience to rebuild (since he destroyed all his beliefs at first) a little more authoritative version of God for himself. In the end, I admit it

Feather - as I said - I am so empathetic to your position - and I am sure I can never fully appreciate your pain or struggle. I shared my thoughts exactly to illustrate why I don't have any good answers because it is a challenge for me to know how to approach it as well. The best thing I can think of for me - that I mentioned already - is to teach them that none of us can fully know how God will judge us, but we do have an assurance that he will always love us, that he knows our hearts and situations/challenges, and that he will be merciful beyond our understanding in judging us fairly a

I find it hard to believe you are missing the substance of what I am saying. The fact that you are saying it's debatable is negating my reason - I am not saying 'some people' said so - I am saying that I believe those people spoke/speak for God Himself. And God decides what is holy. not me. If all my opinions and feelings about the world were based solely on my own reason and Earthy tangible factors, I would surely not maintain faith in my - or any - church. I fully understand the choice of agnosticism/atheism - it is just that my spiritual experiences don't allow me to go ther

Other than what I believe to be living and past prophets since the start of recorded history in the Judeo-Christian tradition, including those who penned ancient scripture speaking for God saying it isn't OK? No. 🙂