Maestrophil

I agree it is a potentially a tricky stance to take - but I feel better admitting that 1. I am not the one who decides what a person needs, or what is right for them. 2. Similarly, I won't be their judge, 3. I believe the funnel will narrow as time/eternity goes on and eventually all will fall in with what God requires of them, or choose not to. I think what I am saying is that for a season, in this life, I am trying to be more patient and less 'panicky' about people who choose to leave in order to relieve pain and/or dissonance they feel.

I think one of the biggest things I needed to learn (and am trying to do better at) and I believe the church culture as a whole also needs to learn this - is how to accept that sometimes the healthiest thing for someone to do at a certain moment in their lives IS to leave the church. Or at least respect that person for making what they feel is an authentic choice and respect and love them for it rather than condemn or vilify them. I can't begin to imagine the struggle and pain that came with the decisions you have made and I have no reason to believe you did not make them lightly and without a lot of sincere struggle and contemplation. And I wish you all the best and am glad you are finding peace in your journey.

You say you only have received 1 out of these 8 benefits? I hope you have received more than that, brother! Even if you have not - I wasn't necessarily saying that all members experience all these things all the time, I was simply providing the '5 reasons' that were asked for that would be worth leaving your homosexual marriage/partner... the hope of those reasons being possible. I believe they are all available to saints striving to live righteously.

Humba Tuhan gave a much more elaborate list than I will. I just want to respond as succinctly as I can to your question to me. Now that you have agreed to the supposition that you really did believe, here are some reasons. 1. Knowing God is pleased with you. 2. Knowing you are headed towards exaltation. 3. Knowing that you qualify for blessings that are predicated upon obedience you would otherwise miss out on. 4. receiving those blessings. 5. Knowing that if the loved ones you ‘leave’ (and you don’t have to leave their lives) will receive similar blessings if they also choose to follow Gods commandments. 6. Knowing you are an example to others to lead them to Exaltation as well. 7. Having the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. 8. Being able to attend the temple for personal succor and revelation. There’s 8 I came up with without even having to work very hard. Now - protestation to this list based on doubt rather than belief will render this list moot. I am in no way insinuating that this would make that decision easy at. I can’t imagine how hard it would be. Especially if you already have an established same sex marriage and children. also, as some have said, I think people put too much focus on sex - without getting too far into the weeds, there are plenty of hetero marriages that are missing a sexual component/attraction for one reason or another that still stay together in love and faith, raise great families, and live a measure of fulfillment and joy knowing they are choosing righteousness over looking for the missing sexual fulfillment.

I fully concede that if you don’t have a firm belief that the church is all it purports to be, there are no benefits to such a sacrifice.

Wow. And the Lord I would follow thee from the choir of young people just now was incredibly beautiful! I missed who they were too.

Where was the choir from the second session from (I missed the first part of the session)? There was a remarkable amount of ethnic diversity

Thanks for sharing that experience. More than anything, I want them all to know they are truly loved - and that one isn't earned or last by belief or lack thereof.

I definitely am not saying that you haven’t experienced those things and that former members don’t experience judgment from members. I am just saying I think there is some truth to some people seeing judgment when it isn’t intended. I am sure there have been times when things I have done might’ve come across as judgmental when I didn’t intend them that way.

I do believe there is truth to this.

Thanks for the reply. I am truly sorry that has been your experience both in the church and in your family. That sounds like it would be very painful and would leave a lot of lasting psychic pain. I can tell you that I have never held the church or belief as a weapon against any of my kids - they might feel that they were judged simply because, as a family we expected everyone to participate in church on Sunday and FHE on Mondays with us while they lived in our home. But that is the extent of it. It's funny because IF my kids feel like we pressured them, I often got comments form members of the church who would say that part of the reason they thought my kids were not active/serving missions, it because I didn't force them or tell them the HAD to. It seems you can't win either way. Ironically, I know your hurt in the reverse as my parents left the church and for a long while were quite antagonistic about it and I was told very negative things about my intelligence, and put down for my choices - including that to serve a mission. Things are much better now, but I still know the sting of being told you are dumb, wrong and a failure for your choices. Luckily, all my children still come to the home willingly and there is much love expressed all around, which I am grateful for. I just wish I knew how to purge any of the bad feelings that might exist on the part of my kids, and want to act in a way that ensures they know I accept them as they are - which is why I genuinely asked for your advice/suggestions. I hope time and circumstances bring healing and harmony to you and yours!

I didn't choose this quote as the only one I am addressing here, but rather to just single you out to ask some real sincere questions as a member and parent who wants to be better while still maintaining my faith and membership. To respond to the OP question - yes I have seen this trend among the generation spoken of, and those a little older and younger as well. It makes me sad and concerned at the same time. Especially as a parent who has over half his children in full rejection mode of the church (4 of 6), and the remaining children in a very 'slightly' LDS mode (2). None served missions (and I never condemned them for their decisions to not go). So what do you recommend a person like me - a GenX dad who is active and believing - can do to improve the experience for my kids and to have them either return to faith, or feel less bitter towards the church? It's an honest question. I express continually that I love and accept them even if they live very different standards than I do, and I honestly think none of them doubt they are loved by my wife and I. Still - the 4 who have left activity are very demeaning and dismissive when talking about the church and even its members. So what more can be done? Especially given that: - I don't think the church will ever change chastity definitions to allow for any kind of sanctioned sexual relations between homosexual individuals. - I won't join in with any badmouthing or condemnation of the 1st Presidency or Q12. I can have respectable dialog about feelings and reactions to their words and policies, but will always stop short of accusing them of being racist, homophobic, or liars. What do you suggest from your perspective? Is there truly anything a member/parent like myself can do, or is the gulf too wide and the hatred/resentment of the church too definite? Could your family/ward/stake have done anything different to make it so you had a better outcome and disposition towards the church - or do you think the fact that the church has the truth claims it does simply force a gulf and you would have felt disillusioned regardless?

I concur

Totally understand this - and, while I still don't have cracks in my personal shelf over this, I understand why people would. Especially if you mentioned transgressions you knew of before a calling was issued and nothing came of it - that would be really upsetting to me as well. I think you hit the nail on the head when you talked about the gift needing to be received and used - my personal belief and observation is that most leaders just 'do the work' to get things done when issuing callings and look for available and willing participants and call them. I think there is a lot of spiritual work involved in getting real discernment and a lot of introspection and quiet reflection time is often required. I think often, this doesn't happen. I know that I am guilty of presenting names to the bishop for callings just based on initially feeling good about an available person without going much further than that. That said, I think there are other scenarios possible too that don't require a failure in discernment. - for instance, a person could be worthy when called, but then make a terrible choice a la King David.

Navidad. Thank you for sharing your beliefs and testimony. Very refreshing and different from my other encounters with evangelicals. And while some LDS may disagree with you, my personal feeling is that you and I are very much on the same page for the most part. I believe that all Christian denominations are part of the Body of Christ and that the fruits of the Spirit and the Atonement are available to all who turn to Jesus. I acknowledge that our differences likely will come from the LDS doctrinal view of degrees of glory in heaven and who will attain to the highest of those. While I, as a Latter-day Saint believe that before final judgement, all must make certain covenants with God through ordinances to attain that highest level (this is likely where our major difference lies), I also believe that all will have a chance to receive these ordinances or reject them from a God who is the only one fit to judge and is full of mercy. I also believe that the majority of God's children will receive glory in a heavenly home regardless of denomination, thanks to the merits of Christ. In this life, I don't believe the ordinances received make anyone any more righteous or worthy than any other believer. We are all travelers towards our Heavenly home, albeit in different vehicles.