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Please keep in mind the context of my comments. Smac is insinuating that doctors should ignore the scientific evidence about suicide risk because if they address this reality, they’ll somehow be authorizing bad medical care “under the threat of suicide.” Your belief that "every week, there's a new unhappy former trans person speaking out against the opposite of this notion" reflects cherry-picking from politicized echo chambers rather than engaging with the broader evidence-based reality. While detransitioner stories are real and important on an individual level, they don’t seem to be representative of the majority of experiences with gender-affirming care. If we genuinely care about the well-being of transgender youth, we should rely on mainstream academic research rather than selective anecdotes. The people who are best positioned to evaluate the totality of the evidence and how it should be utilized in a clinical setting are people like the members of the American Academy of Pediatrics. They are the ones who should be having this debate--not conservative politicians and their tools who are continually outraged by the culture wars.

Smac's link to the PITT article has this line: ". . . to gender ideology and the dystopian nightmare we now face. Our children are being injured and mutilated and are being turned against us." What an apt description of our times! So much derangement being dished out by radicals and swallowed by the gullible. "Dystopian" is a very appropriate description of the frightful array of schools, institutions, and the medical/industrial complex. Not only in America but in Europe and around the world. This brings to mind the scripture: "Satan will rage in the hearts of men."

It seems like every week, there's a new unhappy former trans person speaking out against the opposite of this notion. I recently came across this website: Parents with Inconvenient Truths about Trans (PITT) It includes quite a few "Desistance Stories" that I think merit some attention. Yep. That's the same false dilemma that @Analytics is advancing. "Agreed" in only the loosest sense. Parents who are given such a false dilemma are almost certainly emotionally/mentally compromised in their assessment of the best interests of their child. And yet they still might fear admitting the mistake, for fear of being labeled "transphobe," "bigot," and so on. Thanks, -Smac

Weird choice of analogies…feels more like one of these things is not like the others.

What percentage of people who undergo these procedures later regret it? How does that compare to other major surgeries or drug treatment regimes. What percentage of teens that were on psychiatric drugs regret it? How does that compare to puberty blockers?

Check out the stats for Africa -- very impressive! https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/africa-philippines-lead-church-growth-over-past-10-years#:~:text=The Church overall grew from,doubled during the 10 years. "The number of members in Africa more than doubled during the 10 years. The Philippines, Central America, Brazil and Pacific Islands had increases of more than 25%." "In raw numbers, the regions with the largest increases in Church membership were the United States, with 618,437 new members; Spanish-speaking countries in South America, with 455,269; Africa, with 403,976; Brazil, with 317,498; and the Philippines, with 187,269."

It seems like every week, there's a new unhappy former trans person speaking out against the opposite of this notion. All of them tell a variation of the same story: - They were convinced they were trans youth - They finally got their reluctant parents to go to the gender-affirming care doctor, who all told the parents a variation of this phrase. "You can either have a living son or a dead daughter", etc. - That phrase convinced the reluctant parents, who agreed to the procedure/medicine. - Later, sometimes immediately later, they realized they made a mistake. - Now they bemoan the lasting impacts of medical or surgical transition, and wish the doctor had never uttered that horrible notion. I've lost count of the numbers of individuals telling a variation of this story. Maybe half started this journey as an adult, the other half as minors. They all express the same regrets. Many of them complain about lifelong medical issues as a result. So many of them, they've started organizing into groups. The Detrans Alliance on TikTok. The Detransawareness.org people. They buddy up with activists like Riley Gains, and she'll post their stories. They often find their ways to the Gays Against Groomers org and tell their stories on that platform. Google 'em up if you like. A lot of them want to tell their stories anonymously. Many give a video or write a bit and disappear. Not enough anecdotes for a study. But yeah, I figure "better a living trans kid than a dead one forced to live their birth sex" will go down in the history books in the same class as claims blacks were inferior because of biology, or the stuff aryan racists said in nazi germany about Jews, or the corpus of human thought on why women shouldn't do this or that. Maybe in my lifetime I'll see that.

True - and - conversion rates are most definitely different between different countries, races, cultures, ethnicities - with I believe more people being converted in Central America, South America, the Philippines, Polynesia compared to the US and Europe.

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, and magistrates in obeying, honoring and sustaining the law. If people loose faith on the law and kings, etc. that seems like individual apostasy, regardless of whether that is justified. That's 100% fine. We all interpret scripture and Gen. Conf. according to our needs, faith, trials, etc. I'm not sure any of us can say: your interpretation or inferences are incorrect as we all interpret the Spirit according to our own needs, faith, etc. I would need to better understand what you are referencing here. I dont know how to phrase it other than the parallel of reasoning I think Elder Bednar is suggesting: G. RObbers (Helaman and Ether) will lead to the overthrow of all the people, as the robbers did twice in the past. One rephrase: Family Proc (and additional guidance from GA's): Multiply and replenish the earth vs. I'm not having kids and you shouldn't have any either - because of the environment; the world population is too high and needs to be brought down, etc. These are claims of WHO, UN, and other supra-national agencies who want to reduce independent nations' sovereignty (EU, UN, etc)

Actually I learned something new today and that is apostasy is defined not only as loss of religious belief, but political. Not does it require membership in a group. Google Merriam Webster So nuclear may be using it in a way we don’t hear in the Church, but it seems like it fits the definition in that he is talking about a loss of belief in the institutions he refers to, a loss of faith and trust or maybe loyalty as well (perhaps there was a sense of pride in them?) I don’t believe Elder Bednar’s talk referred to such. I see nuclear as extrapolating quite a bit here, but it is not as far of a stretch as I thought.

It is, but I get lost pretty quickly.

Aaah i see. That sounds interesting.

Zosimus has a different theory on where the Book of Mormon came from, so he is interested in possible similarities or connections in ancient writings and stories of various countries. He posts his ideas here to share and get critiqued.

Hmmmm. What has this to do with the LDS church?

Could be. I'm not a researcher or scholar like others on this board, so here's GenAI's take on it: Probability of a connection: 40% Here's my reasoning: Similar names: Both accounts feature a person named Jared (Yarej in Arabic), which could indicate a shared origin or influence. Noah's ark connection: Both stories mention ships or boats modeled after Noah's ark, which might suggest a common narrative thread. Eastward migration: Both accounts describe a journey eastward, with Masudi's Jared's father Abur/Amir sailing to China and the Book of Ether's Jared traveling to China and then the Americas. However, there are also significant differences: Genealogical context: Masudi's Jared is part of Japheth's line, while the Book of Ether's Jared is a descendant of Shem. Geographical specifics: The routes and destinations differ between the two accounts. Historical and cultural context: The sources come from different traditions and time periods (Masudi's Meadows of Gold vs. the Book of Ether). Given these points, while there are intriguing similarities, the probability of a direct connection between the two Jareds is moderate (40%). It's possible that the stories share a common ancient source or influence, but the differences suggest distinct narrative developments over time. Here are the sources I used to evaluate the probability of a connection between Masudi's Jared and the Jared from the Book of Ether: Masudi's Meadows of Gold: Akhbar al-Zaman: Book of Ether: Historical and cultural context: Genealogical context: Al-Masudi, "Meadows of Gold and Mines of Precious Gems" (Translated by Paul Lunde and Caroline Stone, 2007) Online archives of the book (e.g., Google Books, Internet Archive) Ibn al-Athir, "Akhbar al-Zaman" (Translated by Carl Brockelmann, 1937) Online archives of the book (e.g., Google Books, Internet Archive) The Book of Ether (part of the Book of Mormon) Official website of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ((link unavailable)) "The Oxford Handbook of Biblical Studies" (Edited by John W. Rogerson and Judith M. Lieu, 2006) "The Cambridge History of the Middle East" (Edited by P. M. Holt, A. K. S. Lambton, and B. Lewis, 1970) "The Bible Dictionary" (Edited by W. E. Vine, 1985) "The Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish Religion" (Edited by R. J. Zwi Werblowsky and Geoffrey Wigoder, 1997)

Are you asking me this as a question? Perhaps you could elaborate what you see as "institutional apostasy," and whether it has been affected by Covid. Perhaps so. Scriptural and prophetic references to "apostasy," whether individual or institutional, pertain to matters of individual/institutional righteousness and devotion to God. Reposing trust in the competency of this or that governmental agency has essentially nothing to do with the concept of apostasy. I think moral degeneracy is not limited to any particular racial category. No. I think you are drawing connections to specific sociopolitical issues and the Restored Gospel, which we all must do to some extent. However, I think these connections cannot be imputed to Elder Badnar's remarks. I am saying that Elder Bednar did not speak of Gadianton Robbers, nor did he draw correlations between Gadianton Robbers and specific sociopolitical issues of our day. I think the concern I had is whether we could infer such "lessons" as being intended by Elder Bednar. I would need to better understand what you are referencing here. Meanwhile, I think Elder Bednar was referencing matters of personal righteousness and conduct, rather than broader governmental/sociopolitical issues. Thanks, -Smac

Not seeing this at all. Elder Bednar only mentioned Covid in passing ("My beloved brothers and sisters, sitting on the stand today, I have watched this Conference Center fill up three times, for the first time since COVID"). Then, much later in his talk, he spoke of "institutional" apostasy. Nowhere, however, does he speak of hearts being hardened against "institutions." Not seeing this at all. Elder Bednar had nothing to say about immigration policy, or about politicians having "influence." Not seeing this. Elder Bednar cited Pres. Benson for his "focus upon the purpose and importance of the Book of Mormon" as "'the keystone of our religion—the keystone of our testimony, the keystone of our doctrine, and the keystone in the witness of our Lord and Savior,'" and also about its "teachings and warnings about the sin of pride," and how it "was written for our day." Elder Bednar invoked passages from Helaman to illustrate the increasing righteousness of the Lamanites and the corollary increasing wickedness - due to pride - of the Nephites. But he did not say anything about "Gadianton Robbers and Secret Combinations." He also did not mention Ether at all. Elder Bednar said nothing about these matters. @The Nehor and I disagree about most things, but I think you are inferring and extrapolating political issues into Elder Bednar's talk that are not there. There are times when such inferences and extrapolations can be done, but such reasoning needs to be retained by the individual rather than specifically imputed onto Elder Bednar. Thanks Smac! 2. Institutional Apostasy did not / currently is not happening in response to the "pandemic?" Not the Church as an institution apostatizing but people loosing faith in federal agency / institutions which have abandoned their stated missions (different people will enter any govt agency of any country in this category, though IMHO the FDA, CDC and NIH really take the cake and lead by salient example what deep capture and apostasy look like). Maybe I'm analogizing the non-analogizable. 3. I'm going out a limb comparing descendants of the Lamanites to Central and South American countries' populations, some of whom have immigrated to the US, and which races have accepted the restored gospel and not become as prideful and morally degenerate as the general US population, predominantly Caucasian? 4a. You're claiming there's a difference or disconnect between President Benson saying: the BoM is "the blueprint of the last days," "focus upon the purpose and importance of the Book of Mormon" as "'the keystone of our religion—the keystone of our testimony, the keystone of our doctrine, and the keystone in the witness of our Lord and Savior,'" and also about its "teachings and warnings about the sin of pride," and how it "was written for our day." ? 4b. Elder Bednar referenced lessons from Helaman four times. Your interpretation of those lessons excludes the G. Robbers, discussed further in Ether 8 and 11 which "Lord inspire Mormon … to include [this account] in his record?" That's fine as it's your interpretation. The goal of small groups to overthrow the government, like the G. RObbers in Helaman and Ether, are in your opinion not roughly equivalent to entities working toward reducing US sovereignty, independence, actively working toward population reduction, etc.?

This is what tools of the state do. Embrace your true self. Hide no longer.

MUNGA 4ever

Jeff Lindsay has posted this announcement: For the full announcement, see https://www.arisefromthedust.com/register-for-margaret-barkers-master-classes-on-the-hebrew-scriptures/ FWIW, Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA

That's so interesting. That an Italian made the discovery. Though... i'm really happy that the US from today speaks English and not the Italian language. The English language sounds way more beautiful.

Indeed. For the view of Columbus when I was a teen: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1975/10/americas-destiny?lang=eng#p60 Not sure if you know this or not (I don’t know holidays of unique to your country), the US celebrates Columbus Day on the second Monday in October. It became a federal holiday in 1968. Used to be a big day (Oct 12) when I was in elementary school. After that, the only thing I remember is they had big sales where Mom would want me to go shopping for clothes with her (I hated, hated shopping)…except for the Columbus Day Parade. That is still going strong. I just know of New York’s as we would watch it on TV. For many it is more about celebrating their Italian heritage like St. Patrick’s Day is celebrating the Irish. Oktoberfest celebrates German heritage.

We all have to start somewhere. I started with questions that over many years led me to read and consider many things and many other questions I had not even thought of at the start. That is just life. The important thing is where your journey ultimately takes you. Over the years, I have read material by Ritner and Vogel and Hauglid, and Gee. And many others. Consider first the question of objectivity. Peter Novick, the author of an important book called That Noble Dream: Objectivity and the American History Profession, was asked to speak on the topic at a Sunstone by people who had not, apparently read his book, and were therefore, so surprised and unsettled by what he said that Sunstone never published the essay. I have a transcript however. Such is the ideal. However, in reality, Novick observes this: (Peter Novick, “Why the Old Mormon Historians Are More Objective Than the New.” A talk delivered at the 1989 Sunstone Symposium held at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City.) In practice, as Richard Bushman observed: For example, consider Bacon, the Father of the Scientific Method. Bacon's problem is not that he isn't logical and rational and scientific. The problem is that he is not self-critical in considering the effect that his own unconscious assumptions have on his perceptions and conceptions, that is that framework that he uses to order and interpret the evidence in front of him. Galileo's arguments included inviting opponents of the Copernican Hypothesis to also consider what their eyes and observations would tell them if they did in fact, reside on a spinning earth that orbited a sun. Bacon is so immersed in his assumptions that he cannot see they color how and what he sees and can imagine. This is exactly why Jesus says that judgement must begin with being self-critical, examining the beam in our our eye first. "Then shall ye see clearly." So I keep citing Thomas Kuhn, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, for a pattern for approaching debates in which the basic assumptions that opponents have are different, where the rules and which sets of data themselves are disputed. The issue for me is not whether Vogel and Ritner and Hauglid are supposedly objective, just facing facts and reporting truth but whether their case is better in terms of the criteria that are not completely self-referential. Vogel, for example, collected five volumes of Early Mormon Documents as part of his preparation for writing his biography of Joseph Smith. When it comes time to describe what happened on the night that Joseph Smith claimed that Moroni visited the first time, Vogel, ignores the documents, and instead, reports what must have happened, in his view, given his determination not to be a narrator of the supernatural. That is not, "Just the facts, Ma'am." Larry Morris points this out in his review: So Vogel's account of the key events of Joseph Smith's life is not based on the most important and first hand evidence at hand (that is, the accounts of Joseph Smith, family and neighbors), but rather what Vogel's skeptical ideology assumes must have happened. In Godel, Esher and Bach, Hoftstadter points out that "The important thing to keep in mind is that proofs are demonstrations within fixed systems of propositions." and that "Godel showed that provability is a weaker system than truth, no matter what axiomatic system is involved." (p 18 and 19). And what I learn from Kuhn is a way to approach debates that are ultimately about which system of propositions is most promising to adopt, where to be meaningful the choice must be based on criteria that have some notable independence from the propositions involved. The most important of these turn out to be puzzle definition and testability, accuracy of key predictions, comprehensiveness and coherence (breath and depth and how well everything inside and out fits together), fruitfulness (what you see from the inside that you'd never imagine existed from the outside), simplicity and aesthetics, and future promise. Kuhn says the existence of these values permit us to ask "Which paradigm is better? Which problems are most important to have solved?" But these criteria are applied by us as values as individuals, not as common rules applied to a fixed body of evidence that forces everyone to the same conclusion. I am very much aware of the contours of the debate about the Book of Abraham. To me one of the most conspicuous things about it at this stage is that Ritner, Vogel, and Hauglid have not addressed the implications of Will Schryver's observations at FAIR that And with respect to the Hor Book of Breathings from the surviving papyri that Joseph Smith supposedly somehow thought he was translating or pretended to translate from, to my knowledge Ritner Vogel, and Hauglid have not meaningfully addressed Tim Barker's important observation at a more recent FAIR Conference in preparing Facsimile 2 for publication, Joseph Smith had Ruben Hedlock fill out the incomplete portions of the hypocephalus with characters from, surprise, the Hor Book of Breathings, (something critics pointed out in 1968) but did not realize the significance of the fact that the published annotations to Facsimile 2 have always openly declared that Joseph Smith has not translated those characters. That means, contrary to suppositions by Ritner, Vogel, and Hauglid and many others, that the source for the Book of Abraham must be something other than the Hor Book of Breathings. And I have read Nibley's An Egyptian Endowment, so I have a reasonable idea of what that document is about. Gee is clear about his assumptions and does at least have a knowledge of the requisite languages and the sources and issues so that when he states an opinion, it is based on his personal inquiry, and not just on his selection of which authority to unquestioningly follow. This would be a good place to mention the Perry Scheme for Cognitive and Ethical Growth. Of the 9 positions through which we can all pass or remain stuck, I will offer just two: FWIW, Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA

This is her to a T, but with different scenarios. I shared it with my daughter, her mom. Something that came to mind is a memory I have and I think I was near this age, not sure but thinking I had to have been to have done what I did. I remember driving near my state capital with my mom and being really mad at her, back when we never wore seat belts in the late sixties, and I opened the door to get out while moving and she had to grab my arm and get me back in! Another memory is when I gathered my belongings in a paper sack and tried to run away, I maybe got four houses down the road before heading back. Here's a funny video I thought I could share here, already shared with my kids, maybe you're a nineties kid? https://www.facebook.com/share/r/Re2vS8RRmE15aA7U/

That is why society should provide universal health insurance so that people can obtain the assistance of competent medical professionals when needed.