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Since you appear to be quite certain about this, should I assume you are intolerant of me and we won’t be able to find shared POV because I think you are quite wrong in this opinion?

Added: Looks like there some stats later….and maybe they add details about the examples they use,so I may edit my remarks later. So far I am not seeing any stats or actual research, just vague references and personal experiences. Which is typical of biased reporting. There is good reason to assume they are seeing what they expect to see and not critically examining their conclusions. I can see treating their examples as valid as individual experiences, but speaking of them as half the population or a common occurrence lacks foundation. In the case of the one year old, did they know the family well enough to know the child had no special needs nor the wife, that for sure there was no issue where the husband didn’t need to be there. Or did they know for sure he was helping at other times and not taking off physically or mentally, forcing the wife to ask for help. Same thing with the other example, there is no in-depth examination of possible complicating factors like maybe the mother was suffering from post partum depression.

Vets from Iraq and Afghanistan. A friend from a PTSD group does support in Miami and he continually loses people. Every week it was a few more.

The LDS Church includes the word "paradise" in the Introduction notes of section 138 and teaches that the spirit world includes two parts: spirit prison and spirit paradise. See my larger reply to oghossier. Of the terrestrials who Jesus is mentioned as visiting, it says, "These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men". Suppose you have Hindus, Buddhists, or Muslims who have lived good and honorable lives in the eyes of man. They allowed themselves to be blinded by the craftiness of men, rejected the Atonement of Christ, and even worshipped idols made of stone and wood. Does God view them as wicked and in darkness? I'm familiar with 93:33-34. My references to achieving the fulness of joy were describing the exalted beings, those who met certain conditions. Here are some examples: "The commandment to multiply and replenish the earth has never been rescinded. It is essential to the plan of redemption and is the source of human happiness. Through the righteous exercise of this power, we may come close to our Father in Heaven and experience a fulness of joy, even godhood. The power of procreation is not an incidental part of the plan; it is the plan of happiness; it is the key to happiness" (The Plan of Happiness, Boyd K. Packer, President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general–conference/2015/04/the–plan–of–happiness?lang=eng "A fullness of joy is found only within the framework of an exalted family. Some people may scoff at the seventh commandment, which requires chastity before marriage and fidelity afterward, but "political correctness" is not a substitute for the plan of happiness" (The Eternal Family, Merrill J. Bateman, President of Brigham Young University, January 6, 1998) https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/merrill-j-bateman/eternal-family "God wants you to find and keep joy in this world and in the world to come. You have been specially endowed with a celestial nature that is to grow into a fullness of joy" (A Joyful Heart, Dale E. Miller, June 8, 2004). https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/dale-e-miller/joyful-heart/ "How, then, does a man imitate God, follow his steps, and walk as he walked, which we are commanded to do? We must study the life of Christ, learn his commandments, and do them. God has promised that to follow this course will lead a man to an abundant life and a fullness of joy and the peace and rest which those who are heavy-burdened long for" (Listen to a Prophet's Voice, Elder Ezra Taft Benson, Of the Council of the Twelve) https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1973/01/listen-to-a-prophets-voice?lang=eng "You are the stage manager—you are the one who decides which thought will occupy the stage. Remember, the Lord wants you to have a fullness of joy like His" (Think on Christ, President Ezra Taft Benson). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1984/04/think-on-christ?lang=eng https://speeches.byu.edu/wp-content/uploads/pdf/Benson_Ezra_1983_10.pdf "Neither is it enough to be a good, solid citizen, contributing to charities, serving on community boards, and in general living a good Christian life. Although commendable, this is not sufficient to entitle one to the fulness of joy and the eternal life that our Father in heaven has promised to those who love him and keep his commandments" (Just for Today, President N. Eldon Tanner, First Counselor in the First Presidency). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/1975/01/just-for-today?lang=eng "If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our heavenly parents have received" "At the Grand Council we also learned the purpose for our progression: to have a fulness of joy. However, we also learned that not all of our Father's children would want to receive a fulness of joy. Some of us would be deceived, choose other paths, and lose our way" "We learned that if we placed our faith in him, obeying his word and following his example, we would be exalted and become like our heavenly parents. We would receive a fulness of joy". "We can be exalted as God is and receive a fulness of joy". "Blessings of Exaltation: They will become gods. They will receive a fulness of joy". (Gospel Principles, 1997). There are even parts in the Book of Mormon where living mortals possessed a fulness of joy. "And now, behold, my joy is great, even unto fulness, because of you, and also this generation; yea, and even the Father rejoiceth, and also all the holy angels, because of you and this generation; for none of them are lost. Behold, I would that ye should understand; for I mean them who are now alive of this generation; and none of them are lost; and in them I have fulness of joy" (3 Nephi 27:30-31). "And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one" (3 Nephi 28:10). This passage is for those in paradise, not spirit prison. The terrestrials and telestials do not satisfy the conditions of 138:12-15. I see it adding some clarity to Doctrine and Covenants 93:33–34, which you mentioned earlier. Regarding the passage you mentioned earlier: "For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy." This, I take, is your reference to resurrection causing someone to have a fulness of joy. There are only two states: a resurrection and no resurrection. There is no idea of a lesser or greater degree of fulness. An empty glass is not a fulness. A partially-full glass is not a fulness. You made me think about something. 1] Spirits are eternal and uncreated according to the Pearl of Great Price. 2] Spirits have spirit bodies. 3] Spirit bodies are made of pure matter (eternal elements). 4] These spirits are united with their spirit bodies. But they are not resurrected. If you believe the terrestrials and telestials will have a lesser "fulness of joy", you need to consider Joseph Smith's teaching that they will suffer immeasurable torment in their mind. "The torment of the wicked is to know they have come short of the glory they might have enjoyed". "A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone [see Revelation 21:8]. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone. I say, so is the torment of man". "Some shall rise to the everlasting burnings of God, for God dwells in everlasting burnings, and some shall rise to the damnation of their own filthiness, which is as exquisite a torment as the lake of fire and brimstone". Don't you consider the terrestrials (honorable people who were blinded by the craftiness of men and knowingly rejected the Atonement of Christ in mortality) as wicked and being in darkness? You mean they will be resurrected at the Second Coming?

Transcript, time stamps removed for easier reformatting for easier reading (work in progress): this is like toxic feminism that's being perpetuated by spiritvoiced very gentle, overly agreeable men in the church Even the boomers like they're not to be blamed on this one I looked it up It was like in the ' 50s and 60s when people started throwing this phrase around And I could literally see him taking his emotions and just like tamping them down and just like he's just like "Well I got to go help out my wife." take that mentality and you shove it into a modern relationship where people are coming in as equal partners wanting to make something work and it just messes everything up And now for a cultural call out We sure don't appreciate that… Welcome back to Salty Saints My name is Hayden Holm Today I'm joined by my brother Tanner and in today's cultural call out we're talking about a mantra that has plagued the men of my generation for their entire married lives And that mantra is happy wife, happy life So let's explore this mantra Where where did it come from, why is it here what is it about what what are some of the side effects of it but let me tell you first things first that this was the one piece of marriage advice that I got It seemed like almost universally from everyone every every brother in the church that approached me as I was getting married as I was engaged came up and they just gave me this look and they just said "Happy wife happy life Buckle up buddy." You know and I I was like "Okay yeah that's that's an interesting take you know that's great." You know I'm all for it And then after getting married I quickly realized that uh Chanel didn't get that same mantra There is no other mantra for the women that say like happy husband happy life The women don't get that advice The women don't get that at all As I come from to find out from Chanel's experience who I was like did did you get any advice you're like no No No And so how does that check out with your experience am I am I off on my own island just crazy here no I got that a lot too And I like on its face it it makes logical sense like if your wife is happy your life will be easier So it's like okay you just kind of smile and nod but you think about it for a second It's like what does that actually what what action do I need to take based off that what is that calling me to do you know it's really it's really kind of bizarre And I I you know Hannah like same thing She there's no like you know take care of your husband and everything will be okay You know in fact there's the opposite When you get engaged everyone's like "Hey husband to be if you uh if you screw this up I'm going to kill you." You know if you if you like if you hurt my friend Hannah if you hurt my daughter if you hurt my sister I'm gonna mess you up you know like there's like it's I'm going to cause you harm Yeah Yeah Don't screw this up is what I got a lot Or it's like hey just make sure she's happy and that's that's your primary goal which it's it's not untrue Like it's not untrue to the fact that like yeah you should make sure your spouse is happy Like that's that's a great thing you should clock every day is like "How's my spouse doing today?" Right but that's not actually what it means or that at least what I've been communicated from other people who told me that when I was getting married like when the actual actions behind of like how do you keep your wife happy lead to like this weird bizarre place of like I don't know like like weird pseudo submission to your wife in a lot of ways that just end up making you very resentful and unable to communicate what you're actually feeling most of the time So I'm sure that's Let's get into that a little bit Yeah No I I remember getting similar advice It was that advice and then I also got advice from other men that just said "Get out of her way okay she calls the shots in your house You shut up You sit down and you listen to her She is everything okay and you are nothing." And I remember that that left me feeling like a little bit like "Oh okay All right Well whatever I guess." you know uh so let's but let's let's explore this a little bit more Like let's let's dive in a little bit to figure out what this looks like in practice So from the marriages that you observed that practiced the happy wife happy life mantra how did that actually in a boots on the ground manner affect that relationship well I mean I had some good examples and some not so good examples Some good examples you just see them like calmly existing in a neutral space That's like the best case scenario You know the bad examples you have these older couples who've lived together forever and the the the husband's lived by this mantra and he's bent over and angry and just muttering to himself all the time all the things he wishes he could say but he can't because that would make his wife not happy and then that would make his life not happy So he's just going to keep it all inside until one day his heart stops You know like that's just I I have absolutely seen that there are couples out there that adopt this mantra They adopt this mindset and it leads to these deformed marriages where all of the responsibility is then shlept onto the back of the husband in that role and his back becomes so muscular that he becomes like the hunchback of Notradam because he has to carry so much weight and he's just like starts hunching over Yeah He's just just walking around there trying to sing like one more day you know or whatever And he's just like hoping to get out You can see it in his eyes He's just super agreeable Uh whatever his wife wants she gets you know and I don't like this isn't like a call out against all women I actually feel like the women of our generation are victims of this as well It's not doing them any any favors at all Yeah Right because it's it's cultivating men who just want them to make the decision and want to be errand boys you know where I feel like maybe I'm out in left field on this one but I feel like a lot of women want men to be decision makers in most areas of their family and marriage right and there's some key areas where women would like to make you know decisions but in most areas I feel like they'd rather defer to their husband and say "Can you just take care of this you know can you just choose where we're going to go eat dinner at you know we're going to have dinner tonight or can you just choose the movie i mean those are silly examples but like I think deep down there's there's that shift there where if men are just trying to make their wives happy then they're shifting all of the decision-m to the wife And I don't think anybody in from either side male or female wants all the decision-making power That's that's way too stressful Well they they don't And it leads to a generation of women I mean I know there's a term out there that that came about just like five to 10 years ago Do you remember the Karens. I think that term came from the happy wife happy life couples right because it's a generation of women that grew up believing that they were the morning and the evening star that the universe revolves around them and so it deforms them as well So you have these misshapen marriages where you've got women running around I'm gonna I'm gonna sound like Lord of the Rings over here like unchecked unchallenged just doing whatever they want you know giving filling them with this you know unearned sense of power that makes them feel like they can talk to everybody's manager and dictate the rules wherever they go And then you have their their spouses which are just a bunch of men that are just kind of hobbled over very overly agreeable you know but also very resentful at the same time you know that are just like they they don't actuallytell you what they think They will say whatever that they think you want to hear but deep down they will have their own opinions but they bottle that crap down and they keep that lid closed tight you know and it it manifests in them just exploding randomly whenever you try and like comment on a Google doc you know in in award council or something like that for a completely random example but it has to come out eventually But it's funny that you bring out the the Lord of the Rings because the mental picture I had in my mind was when Frodo who is panicked offers the ring of power to Galadriel right like he's afraid of this power So he says "Do you want it?" And then she goes super psycho mode and says "You you should have you you would choose to have a queen right and all shall love me in despair." You know like yeah that's what the modern man is doing The modern man's photo in that moment and saying like "Can you take this burden from me can do you want it?" And half of the women are saying "I'll take it." And they become that evil queen right like the lights go down her face gets super dark her hair is just shoots out everywhere And you shall have a queen you know like oh yeah So like the men the the boy little boys getting married right instead of offering that ring to Galadriel you need to take that burden and you need to take it all the way to Mount Doom I don't know how far we can stretch with metaphor but that's about as far as I can get There we are a little Yeah I think it's very apt that you know there's some of that responsibility you have to keep to yourself as a man be like no I need to take care of you in this way and that means making some decisions and drawing some boundaries so we can actually have a happy marriage which doesn't make people happy all the time I know that you know and women should do this too They should draw boundaries too that will make their husbands unhappy sometimes You know that's just part of negotiating a marriage It's it's really hard work So what do you mean by boundaries that make them unhappy well I mean like I think there's a lot of boundaries you can draw that make them unhappy right but there's sometimes like for instance um you know when when I'm I work at home but when I'm in my office I need to be in my office right and I can't have kids running in and out unless I have the door unlocked and then that's my choice right so even though there's some times where Hannah could really use my help she knows that she can't interrupt me because I have to do my work Even though technically I could sneak away sometimes and help You know there's a boundary that needs to be drawn there So I can feel safe enough to work and comfortable enough to understand what I need to do and be flexible and offer help when I can But you know if she's constantly asking me for help then that puts pressure on me right and and leads to an unhappy husband right which I could just I could just work all night I could just You could just bottle that up Yeah Yeah I could do all my work and I could be totally flexible during the day and go out and help with the kids all day and then just work all night and just you know have a heart attack or an aneurysm in three years you know and that would be a happy life happy life happy wife happy lifestyle right because you know I'm doing everything to serve her on that on that front But so I think that no you have to stand up and be like "No, I actually have need as a as a man." Which for some reason in this world is perceived as weakness to have needs of a man Like you know you're not allowed to have those I need to go play with my friends Like I need to do that You know men should be doing that And because they're not you know we have suicide rates that are through the roof So I think that yeah there's a lot of things that we need to start doing on that front that both men and women of our generation and even like the Gen Xers and boomers they're all victims of this right so we're not showing hate Even theboomers Even the boomers like they're not to be blamed on this I looked it up It was like in the 50s and 60s when people started throwing this phrase around And that is right when they you know the veterans from World War II were coming home and creating that new generation So they're not to blame We could we don't it's the silent generation right they're the ones before that So which I mean they they ended World War II so I can't fault them too much for throwing you know some silly words around and causing a cultural mishap but Right But I I think domestic abuse was also pretty rampant around that time as well So there's a lot of messed up things from that area era So right it's Yeah 100% So the thing is here's the deal I've seen this manifest in a couple different ways So there was one time and I'm glad you were talking about setting boundaries and and determining your own needs and standing firm on those Uh there was one time where as an elers corum in one of my wards we were we set up a recurring pickle ball night and we started playing pickle ball and we were having a lot of fun and there was one brother every single time we played pickle ball without fail Every time he would get a message he'd pull out his phone and and let me just add that he was one of the best pickle ballers I've ever seen Like he was hitting it between the legs He was doing it like backwards He was like he was basically Neo with a pickle ball paddle And he would pull out his phone He would look at his messages And then I saw his spirit just leave through his eyes and his eyes would just glaze over And he would just go And then we were like "Hey what's going on man?" And he was just like and I could literally see him taking his emotions and just like tamping them down and just like he's just like "Well I got to go help out my wife." She just said that she needs help putting our one-year-old to bed so I got to go help her And then every single time he left And I remember thinking like that poor poor man who who loves playing pickle ball was connecting with the quorum is now at home helping his wife put one child to bed which oh yep see and like there's so many different things wrong with that scenario right like this like just to jump in real quick like the fact that she feels like she needs help you know and the fact that he is a man cuz like as a man you're told that your number one priority is your family right so you should do everything for your family Sacrifice everything for your family So it actually lines up with his moral compass I'm sure to sacrifice the fun of pickle ball to go take care of his family And that's being weaponized against him accidentally by his wife who can't handle putting the baby to bed Now I think that the the psychological um effect of what or the event that's called learned helplessness I think is what comes in a lot with with um with different families and different spouses like this because I feel like there's a there's a dependency there Like and I this this happens on both sides When Hannah's busy in the evenings to going to like Relief Society meeting or something and I have to cook dinner I go in there and I look at the fridge I'm like I can't I don't I can't do it I don't know I just you know I have to like pace from the pantry to the fridge like four or five times before I can like man up and actually cook something for my kids you know cuz I' I've become dependent on her doing that And I feel like the the more you fudge the boundaries and the fuzzier things get the more you depend on your spouse to do those things and you learn a sense of helplessness around those things like I can't put the baby to bed by myself because my husband's been helping me for the past two years you know i think that I mean it's a whole can of worms for sure and it it seems like you get into this almost positive feedback loop where the happy wife happy life mantra will feed into that and it makes them become more helpless which then makes you have to repress your emotions even more and help them even more which makes them even more helpless It's a vicious never- ending cycle which is really difficult to uh to have to deal with But I think it's becoming increasingly more difficult with the age of work from home So if you are not careful with those boundaries they can bleed like crazy And if they bleed you're you can quickly turn into a full-time employee and full-time dad at the same time where like you're doing your work for like five minutes and then it's like "Hey I need some help over here." And then you have to run And I'm not saying that Chanel does that We we we've been working from home since 2016 We have iron boundaries set So I made intentional focus in work to make sure and she is fantastic with not uh with respect to my work hours and making sure that uh that that's respected but I think I think those boundaries have to be established and I don't think that is happening with a happy wife happy lifer and so there's another guy that I knew in the elers quorum his wife talking about like learned helplessness like there was one day like she wakes up she had like two little and he he gets home from work He was working a really long day He was between jobs It was really stressful So he was studying and he was working at like this part-time gig So he gets back home like 7 8:00 at night The kids are screaming. They're crying They're running They're jumping all over the place The house is a complete mess The TV's on full blast And she looks at him and she's just like she's in her pajamas and she's like "I just it's just I feel so bad They just watch TV all day And this brother had an opportunity He had an opportunity to sit down in counsel and say like "Hey we need to both be pulling our weight." You know but instead I think that happy wife happy life mantra kicked in and like a little marionette made him say "At least they're alive You've done your part." Okay you know it was like you just oh you had a chance but you blew it kid You blew it Because at that point she's just like "Oh okay Ah great." You know and then she fell back into whatever she was doing like "Uh I got to go take a break These kids have been too tough for me all day I got to go." And so then he ended up cooking dinner and she it anyway but it's it's a big problem And for that reason I have put together a list I asked AI I said "Hey give me 10 signs that would show me that I was actually a victim of this mantra that I actually believe it." And so let's go over some of those signs right okay Sign number one defers to wife Let's wife decide roles or activities even against own preferences So this goes back to the pickle ball guy This goes back to like "Hey you're not going to play You're not going out tonight You're going to stay home and you're going to help me with roles that I should be taking care of myself Okay Number two avoids conflict Stays silent in disagreements to keep wife happy So this is going back I I I don't want to call him the silent generation just because I don't want to confuse anybody But but this is a very agreeable very agreeable generation Um suppresses needs hides struggles or opinions to prioritize wife's needs Number four seeks approval Checks with wife publicly before committing to tasks So we'll constantly be checking in with the wife making sure that everything's okay with her before he's like "Okay yeah I can I can do this or I I might be able to do that." Number five feels responsible Acts anxious if wife is upset trying to fix her mood So he feels responsible for how the wife feels and how she is behaving and her whole life and attitude So it's basically this this basically it's it's making the wife into an object instead of an agent who can act It's saying like no no no I have to take care of you and if you're ever upset it's my fault Uh right lack lacks boundaries is number six So overcommits to wife's interests neglecting own well-being So that can very well manifest for those work at homers if your wife is constantly pulling you in and out of meetings and saying like hey you need to help me with this and you need to do that Number seven shows passive aggression Uses sarcasm or withdrawal when frustrated So so like if it's cold in there it's not because you left the fridge open it's because she's given you the cold shoulder All right like can use withdrawal of affection as a weapon to get you to do to manipulate you So that's a form of passive aggression Hints at resentment So subtly expresses feeling undervalued in conversations And this is obviously from the husband not the wife And then number nine prioritizes wife's involvement So focuses on wife's roles over own responsibilities This is something that we're seeing when like one of the one of the common veins of comments that I get especially when I talk about like elderm activities is that men often feel guilty They feel a guilt associated with spending time uh doing something that they find enjoyable they they've kind of view their work as their responsibility and then when they're not working they should be at home with their family That's their mentality is like okay and then taking care of themselves is right probably past like cleaning out the gutters and maybe cleaning the grout in the tile you know it's like okay now I can take care of myself down here So that is definitely one of the symptoms of the happy wife happy life mantra and number 10 appears disconnected seems emotionally distant in interactions So as I'm going through those 10 signs I want you to picture your average elders quorum Okay focuses on wife's roles over own responsibilities So appears disconnected lacks boundaries overcommits seeks approval feels responsible avoids conflict suppresses needs ringing any bells ding ding ding ding ding ding You know it's like I think this is one of the most prevalent ideologies and it's corrosive and I think it's one of the most dangerous ideologies that has been a product of the North American culture Modern modern society has been pushing on this on us for a really long time And I think it's led not entirely but I would say this is one of the pieces why we see so many men that refuse to engage with the quorum I think the main reason why they go to church is because they believe that church is good for their wives They believe that they are doing her a service and they're saying "All right I need to make sure that you get to Relief Society." They get her to Relief Society hold their hand get her to the door they get into Elders Corb and they're like "Okay now I can finally have time to myself." You know they pull out their phone and they're like "I'm checking out I'm done and I did my part." and then they scroll because like with that last video that we did there were a lot of people that were like I have tried everything these men it has there's something going on outside of the quorum that is affecting them I think this could be one of the things that is impacting them is their relationship with their spouse and the foundation of that relationship is this ideology But you look like you're going to say something Go ahead Yeah I was just going to say like how many times have you heard um men say we got to get to church on time today cuz I need to commune with my brethren in Elder Scorum you know like that's just no one's ever done that you know like that's never been we got to get to church on time because we got to get to our kids to church so they grow up to be good people you know like and got to get the wife to church because she wants to go commune with her relief society cuz like you know women actually really enjoy getting together as a relief society and and mingling right where men are just like "No I'm going to tap out." But I think that like you were saying I was just thinking back about that happy wife happy life phrase And it comes like if you go way back in time it feels like it's almost like something that you would say or or a mantra that you would believe in if you didn't consider your wife like a full partner right if you consider her as like a a subordinate in your house you know like hey don't forget to water the garden you know hey don't forget to pay the lawn mower You know it's like hey happy wife happy life You know you got to make sure she's taking care of the house and you're going to come home and dictate everything Like just don't neglect her You know buy her some jewelry buy her some chocolates give her money and that'll solve everything right but then we have this entire like we have like half a century of progression and you know with women becoming as equal to men as possible but that mentality of happy wife happy life somehow persisted right so you have this like coping mechanism of like I'm a man and I don't want to have a real relationship with my wife so I'm just going to give her money and treat her kind of like you know you know a nice housemmaid or whatever And then you you take that mentality and you shove it into a modern relationship where people are coming in as equal partners wanting to make something work and it just messes everything up right like it just skews everyone's perception of reality to the point where you know like I don't think women are to blame I don't think men are to blame I think it's just an old ideology that just needs to die as soon as possible would be great Yeah Yeah Well I'm glad you're bringing it up because you're touching down on a very valuable point The and and like if you look at the Mother's Day disparity here like how we treat Mother's Day in the church versus how we treat Father's Day right uh it this is something that actually really upsets Chanel because she sees she sees the dad's root beer being passed out on Father's Day after we just gave Mother's Day like an entire Great Harvest gourmet spread in the second hour off and we took over their callings and we did all of that It actually makes her upset to see that level of disregard given to the men because she feels infantilized by the war She feels like the men view her as lesser like "Oh hey little guy Here you know here here are these little treats You need these treats to keep you happy right here you go." You know and so she she actually views it that way And I I love her to pieces because she she views it that way because because it it it it's the correct way to view it objectively right if you want a healthy happy marriage that is the correct way to view things is that you are equals And this isn't this isn't spouting off some heretical idea It's like that goes straight back to the the proclamation of the family It goes straight back to everything we've been learning uh in in the church It's men and women are equal partnerships in the responsibilities that they have to carry So they they have to pull the hand cart equally you know Yeah 100% And so if you can't infantilize the other one you know and you can't carry too much So like you can't let your wife just sit on the hand cart and throw rocks at you while you're schleing through the snow and just like "Okay I love it when you pay so much attention to me." You know it's like that poem You know that poem that every mother has hanging on her fridge the fridge magnet freaking poem that says like "I love seeing dirty dishes in a pile in my house because it means that I had food to eat and people that love me so much to disregard the fact that I'm going to now have to spend eight hours washing those dishes and putting them away you know and it's like that's that's how I think this mantra has been for men This is this is the fridge magnet for men you know of like well I love it when my family dumps on me and I have to put out all the fires because it means that uh I have a family that that that I care about I guess you know Yeah Well I think you bring you bring up a really good point like I I have this this theory that and this is probably way off This is probably crazy but like the best modern approach to marriage and family is to take a like frontier perspective You look at old westerns and you see these people who came out here with handcarts and they built a log cabin by themselves If you're confused about like how to operate with your spouse like just look at that and look at these people on the brink of death and how they survive in the family Everybody's doing everything and everyone's trying their hardest Like that's how your marriage should operate And there should no there shouldn't be any sort of like happy wife happy life That didn't exist It's like oh look there's no flower in the bag We're all walking You know like that's right Pulling the hand We all have work Let no one sherk That's what it was Yeah So I somehow we lost that in you know in the midentury like 50 to 100 years ago and everything went haywire after that So I think we need to get back to that pioneer view of like hey we're all gonna do this or we all die Take that and just subtract the life-threatening scenario and just apply the work ethic behind it and you're great I Hey I wouldn't actually I wouldn't actually subtract the life-threatening scenario I would say I would just I would modify that I would say it's spiritually life-threatening because that's what's happening with these elders is that these elders they're taking on more than they should and it's killing them spiritually on the inside because they do not take care of themselves Their mental health is is through the floor And uh there are studies and and I'll link to this in uh in the description but there is a I I wanted to pull up the suicide rates again because I think it bears repeating All right So this section right here how are we doing the 2023 Utah age adjusted suicide rate was 20.9 per 100,000 population Males 32.5 per 100,000 population had a significantly higher age adjusted suicide rate compared to females 9.1 per 100,000 population See that difference so this is just men versus women you know male versus female So this is all age ranges uh in the demographic breakdown there So 32 versus 9 So if if if we were to see this bearing out in the data the you would s you would expect if if we didn't see if this was not a thing you know if if we didn't see a lot of men suppressing and uh disregarding their own self-care you would expect that to bear out in the suicide rates I would imagine you would expect to see something like maybe maybe it's about the same you know equal But you're seeing it skew way over to one side Now what's interesting right here in Utah from 2021 to 2023 males had significantly higher suicide rate than females in every age group Males aged 35 to 44 had the highest suicide rates among males 49.3 per 100,000 population Females aged 45 to 54 had the highest suicide rates among female age groups Now look at this 15.3 per 100,000 population So you see the difference there There's a huge huge difference And I'm not I'm not trying to say that this is 100% the driver behind it But I am trying to communicate that this isn't going to help You know the happy wife happy life mantra is not going to help And I think you touched down uh on one of the big reasons why Uh growing up you you saw men do this You saw men that that were adopting this mentality treat their wives like infants you know infantilizing their wives And the the thing that we were taught growing up was like if if there's ever a problem it's the man's fault in the relationship And the man must fix that problem via expensive gifts So jewelry you got to get the brighten jewelry you got to get the chocolates you got to get the flowers you have to do some grand show of affection in order to uh prove value in her mind which is incredibly dangerous because that mentality ties your value as a man as a human being to the direct dollar amount in your bank account which means there's an incredible pressure for men to make a lot of money real quick But the problem is what what is going to make you a lot of money a lot of times doesn't align with men's interests You know for for a lot of men you know a lot of men want to pursue what what they feel God is inspiring them to do or guiding them towards You know maybe they want to be uh like a tradesman that doesn't earn very much you know but they're like "Hey I'm really good at this I want to do this." You know and and so this is this is I think one of the cultural weeds that is slowly choking men out Yeah Well it's a it's quite the paradox because it's a catch 22 in the fact that you need to make more money if your value is tied to money but that also means that you need to spend less time in the home and engaged with your family because you have to spend more time making money right so the more you know then then you're called a despondent and disconnected spouse and father and then there's just no winning on that side right and I don't think women want this you know of our generation They didn't want this And it's close but like just my my final point on this is that like the happy wife happy life phrase gets everyone almost there right it tells men you need to take care of your spouse It tells women you should expect your husband to take care of you but it doesn't tell the men that you should expect your wife to take care of you as well Right that's the one piece that's missing Right there should be equal expectations from both sides like we're going to take care of each other We're both going to pull this hand cart all the way to you know to Utah and then we're going to build our home together right so I I think that you know it so close We were so close It could have been happy spouse happy house We were so close You know we just went off the rails and now we have to deal with this huge mess with men in the suicide rate So I think that uh you're right on the money that it's not helping whatsoever Well so here's here's the other thing that I want to point out is that it in large part I don't think it is coming from the women I think this is something that men are saying and teaching to the younger men you know and this is% from my experience So I don't think I don't think women are to blame at all in this You know they don't want this This is like toxic feminism that's being perpetuated by spiritvoiced very gentle overly agreeable men in the church you know that are like "Hey she is the sweetest thing ever." And and if if you have a problem it's because you're the problem You understand you understand that you know and then you go away thinking like "I guess I'm the idiot." you know because I I felt frustrated when she made me do a bunch of chores that were on her list but she had to go to a Relief Society activity and I need to support her in that you know so I guess you know but so here's the deal To your pri real quick to your prior point historically probably in the church men were the problem in almost every domestic dispute You know I'm sure I I am absolutely sure of that Yeah Like men are rough around the edges And uh as we're growing out of that we need to scale back the level we're tea we're telling men like "Hey you should be wrong about everything because you are you know you should be at fault." No we need to kind of balance that out a little bit as we scale through it right it reminds me of a scripture in Second Nephi So this is 28:14 It says "They," meaning society at large "wear stiff necks and high heads Yay And because of pride and wickedness and abominations and whoredoms they have all gone astray save it be a few who are the humble followers of Christ Nevertheless which is like the ancient prophet equivalent of like I'm going to throw a butt in here Nevertheless they meaning the humble followers of Christ are led that in many instances they do error because they are taught by the precepts of men So I'm going to call this you know toxic feminism happy wife happy wife one of the precepts of men that is being taught that is damaging men causing their hearts to fail them uh in in 2025 So there if if I were to pull another scriptural equivalent of it I would say Samson and Delilah So Samson strong he you know pursued his covenant with God He kept that covenant and he was unbeatable right and then what did he end up doing he ended up he he decided to appease Delilah and forsake his covenant And what ended up happening you know that appeasing instead of pleasing God he he was like I'm going to try and chase and pursue her and do whatever I have to do to uh to help her It ended up leading him to break his covenant with God It ended up to him losing his vision as well and completely destroying his strength And that is pretty if you think about that from a symbolic perspective that's pretty powerful because it's like these men that are in these relationships they have lost their vision because they have settled for peace instead of truth for so many years It has blinded them They can no longer spiritually discern their situation and they're kind of wandering about you know and they've lost their strength They've lost that connection with God They've lost that fire within them And they're like that Samson figure you know who's now just being used as a slave right who ultimately ends up just bringing the house down upon himself you know which is just really interesting on that So yeah I think that's a great great analogy there So there is one more thing that I wanted to touch down on I know this is getting long but I do want to touch down on it There's a video that I think is worth playing What is difficult about being a man in today's world what isn't difficult modern men are being made to pay for the sins of a patriarchy that they are no longer the part of Perfect example of this there was an article that came out from Robin Dunar Studies show that men need two guys nights per week in order to maintain good mental health The comments were so disgusting from bitter shallow thinking mostly women saying "Uh tell me you're a manchild without telling me you're a manchild This is why women don't want to have your babies poor whining patriarchy saying that they can't go out for beers with the boys The number of men in 1990 that said they had a close friend to call on was didn't have a close friend to call on in an emergency was 3% In 2020 it was 15% Wow So it's 5xed in that time The most common answer to the question how many close friends do you have is zero It's not the average but it's the most common More people have no friends to call than any other number The single biggest risk to a man under the age of 30 is his own hands Male loneliness is a big problem And when a study comes out that says this is a way that we can fix male loneliness it gets disparaged as part of a luxurious chattering class that all men have If women have a problem we say "What can we do to fix the world?" If men have a problem we say "What is it that men aren't doing where they don't fix themselves?" I I don't want people to think that we're we're trying to preach this like Andrew Tate version of toxic masculinity and Michael stuff No Right Yeah We're not saying that We're saying let's get back to what the church is actually producing And what the church is actually saying is outlined perfectly in the family proclamation Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith prayer repentance forgiveness respect love compassion work and wholesome recreational activities So what is the takeaway for the average father in the age of home-c centered church what would you say well I I think that uh just take that phrase and just scrap it and realize that you are a human being who has a a certain level of things in your life that you need in order to be like a functional man and be okay with that and then and then discuss that with your wife and just do a system check And if if your wife loves you which I'm which I'm sure every husband's wife does almost right she she'll be honest and say "Yeah I think you need more friends or I think you need uh a break here or I think you need to actually try harder over here." You know and that's going to be a very uncomfortable conversation cuz you need to share that with both spouses But just clear the air discuss what is what needs to be done and who can do it and make sure that's as as equal as possible to your strengths and weaknesses and then go forth from there That's what I think needs to happen I like that So you're saying scrap the whole mantra get it out of your head replace it with happy spouse happy house you know where both of you are focused on each other Yeah Yeah At the very least I like that idea Um I very much like that idea So if if anything that we read in the that list of 10 if any of those resonated with you or if you were like "Yeah a lot of those sound very uncannily familiar to me," I would say do exactly what Tanner did Sit down with your spouse counsel together establish boundaries and start taking care of yourself Um and if you need help with if you're like I I don't have any friends uh we are trying to combat that we've got a Discord server called Dads Need Friends It's not just for dads Uh if you are if you are a friend you can join So you don't have to be a dad You can just be a friend Yeah So if if you need friends we've got book clubs going on We've got games nights that are happening a couple times a week So you can you can have a guy's night virtually You can work if you can work from home you can play from home now too So uh so come and join us Take care of yourself you know regain your vision and regain your strength is uh what I would say is is the takeaway for men in the age of home center church So with that being said I know we're getting close to time So my name is Hayden Holm This is Tanner And this is Salty Saints

1 Peter 3 does not say that Christ commissioned righteous spirits in paradise to eventually go into spirit prison to preach to the wicked there. It says Christ went and preached himself. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water". People alter the words and meaning if they believe that "Jesus went and preached" means "Jesus didn't personally go and preach". Here's a teaching of James Talmage from "Jesus the Christ" which reflects this personal visit of Christ to the wicked. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/jesus-the-christ/chapter-36?lang=eng While divested of His body Christ ministered among the departed, both in paradise and in the prison realm where dwelt in a state of durance the spirits of the disobedient. To this effect testified Peter nearly three decades after the great event: "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."f The disobedient who had lived on earth in the Noachian period are especially mentioned as beneficiaries of the Lord's ministry in the spirit world. They had been guilty of gross offenses, and had wantonly rejected the teachings and admonitions of Noah, the earthly minister of Jehovah. For their flagrant sin they had been destroyed in the flesh, and their spirits had endured in a condition of imprisonment, without hope, from the time of their death to the advent of Christ, who came as a Spirit amongst them. Here's a teaching from George Q. Cannon which indicates the same. The spirits of the damned—those who have committed abominable crimes—will have this doctrine preached to them, and they will be kept in torment until they repent of their sins. The labors of the men who have received the Priesthood in this life will be continued in the life to come, in this glorious work of carrying the glad tidings of salvation to those who sit in darkness because of their sins—who may be in the condition of the antediluvian, whom the Lord consigned to prison after destroying them with a flood because they rejected the testimony of Noah and those associated with him. The Lord had promised His servants, however, that these people should be visited after they had atoned to some extent for their violation of His laws; and this was the glorious mission of our Lord and Savior Jesus while His body lay in the sepulchre. He went into the spirit world and visited these spirits in prison, unlocked the doors of their prisons and started again the work of preaching salvation to them to see whether, after having endured the wrath of God from the time when they were overwhelmed with the flood until then, they would receive the Gospel of salvation and repent of their sins. That is the labor that we have upon us as a people, both here and hereafter. (Millennial Star. 1899-02-23: Volume 61, Issue 8, pages 115-116) https://ia600403.us.archive.org/13/items/per_utah-and-the-mormons_the-latter-day-saints-millennial-star_1899-02-23_61_8/per_utah-and-the-mormons_the-latter-day-saints-millennial-star_1899-02-23_61_8.pdf D&C 138:14 says Jesus visited those in peace (who died with a testimony of him in mortality) while D&C 76:74-75 says Jesus also visited those who did not have a testimony of him in mortality. That is confirmed in a 2019 General Conference talk. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2019/10/17oaks?lang=eng "The wicked also suffer an additional bondage. Because of unrepented sins, they are in what the Apostle Peter referred to as spirit "prison" (1 Peter 3:19; see also Doctrine and Covenants 138:42). These spirits are described as "bound" or as "captives" (Doctrine and Covenants 138:31, 42) or as "cast out into outer darkness" with "weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth" as they await resurrection and judgment (Alma 40:13–14)". It is also confirmed in this teaching by Joseph F. Smith. https://rsc.byu.edu/joseph-f-smith-reflections-man-his-times/development-understanding-postmortal-spirit-world "The separation of the just and the unjust described in Alma 40 of the Book of Mormon suggests that there is a separation between the righteous and the unrighteous in the spirit world. In addition to the writings of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith further taught, "Jesus Christ became a ministering spirit (while His body was lying in the sepulchre) to the spirits in prison, to fulfill an important part of His mission." [2] Joseph also taught, "Peter, also, in speaking concerning our Savior, says that, ‘He went and preached unto the spirits in prison, which sometimes were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah,' (1 Peter 3:19, 20). Here then we have an account of our Savior preaching to the spirits in prison, to spirits that had been imprisoned from the days of Noah". These were the wicked people who had rejected the message in the days of Noah. Here are several teachings of the LDS Church regarding paradise, the spirit world, and spirit prison. In short, the righteous are in paradise, the wicked are in spirit prison, and Christ went and preached to those in prison. Paradise: That part of the spirit world in which the righteous spirits who have departed from this life await the resurrection of the body. It is a condition of happiness and peace. The spirits of the righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, Alma 40:11–12. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/paradise?lang=eng Paradise is that part of the spirit world in which the righteous spirits who have departed from this life await the resurrection of the body. It is a condition of happiness and peace. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bd/paradise?lang=eng The postmortal spirit world is a place where the spirits of those who have died live before the Resurrection. The spirit world consists of paradise, where the righteous dwell, and spirit prison, where those who were wicked in mortality dwell. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world?lang=eng "The spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. "Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection" (Alma 40:12–14). The spirits are classified according to the purity of their lives and their obedience to the will of the Lord while on earth. The righteous and the wicked are separated (see 1 Nephi 15:28–30), but the spirits may progress as they learn gospel principles and live in accordance with them. The spirits in paradise can teach the spirits in prison (see D&C 138). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng There are two major states or divisions among the spirits in the spirit world: paradise and spirit prison. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2016/06/what-do-we-know-about-life-after-death?lang=eng After death, our spirit bodies go to the spirit world. There, the spirits of the righteous "are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow" (Alma 40:12). "Those who … died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets," are spirits in prison (Doctrine and Covenants 138:32; see also 1 Peter 3:18–20). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world-study-guide?lang=eng Jesus was the first man that ever went to preach to the spirits in prison, holding the keys of the Gospel of salvation to them. Those keys were delivered to him in the day and hour that he went into the spirit world, and with them he opened the door of salvation to the spirits in prison (DBY, 378). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-38?lang=eng Out of all the spirits in the spirit world, only those in paradise are referred to as being in the chains of hell (D&C 138:23). What are the chains of hell? The Book of Mormon explains it this way: "And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell" (Alma 12:11). The same thing happens for Christ's reference to paradise when he addressed one of the thieves on the cross. "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). The church teaches this is a mistranslation, like other mistranslations Joseph Smith believed in. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/paradise?lang=eng A second use of the word paradise is found in Luke's account of the Savior's Crucifixion. When Jesus was on the cross, a thief who also was being crucified said, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." The Lord replied, "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." The Prophet Joseph Smith explained that this is a mistranslation; the Lord actually said that the thief would be with Him in the world of spirits". Since Jesus is with the thief, they are either both in paradise or in the LDS spirit prison. A similar Greek use of paradise in Luke 23:43 is found in Revelation 2:7 and 2 Corinthians 12:4. I don't have all the details about Luke 23:43, but I'll take Christ as his word – he and the thief being in paradise. Same for Peter. Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:19-20). Some believe this is a reference to Christ preaching to the wicked spirits in the years before the flood through Noah's life instead of Christ visiting the wicked spirits between his death and resurrection. According to how the LDS Church defines the spirit world, spirit prison is one subset and paradise is the other. You can change the context and modify it to "Jesus did not go" but that would not agree with what Peter taught. Joseph Smith updating certain parts of the Bible has led to different meanings from the original. Jehovah's Witnesses do the same with their New World Translation. Jesus even becomes Michael the Archangel. Joseph Smith also added new sections to the Old Testament and made a few tweaks to the New Testament. 1,260 days becoming 1,260 years in Revelation 12 is just one example. I agree with you in that the word "paradise" is not in D&C 138:12-14 but that hasn't stopped the LDS Church from making the connection. I've addressed this already. The connection is clearer when you read Alma 40:12,14. "And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection". The state of being is not the same as a location. But if you want to apply your logic, then the terrestrial, telestial, and celestial kingdom inhabitants are all in the same place; a key difference being their mental state. You have joy and misery coexisting in God's presence. And the righteous spirits are coexisting in the same place as the wicked. Speaking of misery, Joseph Smith taught : "The torment of the wicked is to know they have come short of the glory they might have enjoyed". https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-18?lang=eng The phrase "Jesus went" implies him going to a place, not entering a state of being (emotionally). Even Luke 16 (the parable of the rich man and Lazarus) denotes two places, where people from one section cannot traverse the other. But if you want to equate this with a state of being, then the rich man is not in hell and Lazarus in not in Abraham's bosom. That would put them in the same place, only existing with different emotional states. This would mess up the meaning of the great gulf separating the two and people not being able to traverse the gulf. Gospel Principles updates this teaching in stating that the wicked in spirit prison can go to paradise. I believe paradise is a place that the righteous spirits go to. They do not remain single, all by themselves, in a state of peace and happiness in their grave. Imagine Jesus speaking to the good and wicked people gathered together on a hillside by the Sea of Galilee during the Sermon on the Mount. Now picture someone claiming that Jesus went up to the Mount but the wicked did not hear his preaching. LDS Church teachings also regard them as different places, not a state of being in the same place: "The postmortal spirit world is a place where the spirits of those who have died live before the Resurrection. The spirit world consists of paradise, where the righteous dwell, and spirit prison, where those who were wicked in mortality dwell. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise". https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world?lang=eng The only reference to paradise in Doctrine and Covenants 138 is in the introduction notes. 1–10, President Joseph F. Smith ponders upon the writings of Peter and our Lord's visit to the spirit world; 11–24, President Smith sees the righteous dead assembled in paradise and Christ's ministry among them; The other teachings of spirit paradise and spirit prison and who goes where are found in other teachings. I mentioned some above. Do you find the unjust gathered in the same place as the just in Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-14? Does darkness also reign in paradise (138:22)? Those in the first resurrection are kings and priests (Revelation 1:6; 20:6). Doctrine and Covenants 76 identifies them as gods, members of the Church of the Firstborn. Do you believe terrestrial and telestials are in the first resurrection? I didn't have anything extra to add here other than to refer you to what the LDS Church identifies as the spirit world being a place called paradise and another place called spirit prison. If those teachings are in error, then it is what it is. I make that assertion based on Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-14. Maybe you're basing your statement on the belief that the wicked in spirit prison can repent, accept the ordinances of the gospel, and then travel to paradise. Doctrine and Covenants 138:28 says, "And I wondered at the words of Peter—wherein he said [Peter said went and preached] that the Son of God preached [the word "went" is omitted] unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah—and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time". Do you believe this refers to the wicked humans who were killed in the global flood, wherein only 8 were saved? Speaking of those in paradise, Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-14 says, "And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality; And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer's name. All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ". ALL does not initially include the wicked who rejected the prophets in mortality (D&C 138:20-21). The "wicked" are not gathered together in the same subnet of the spirit world with the "righteous". While the LDS Church teaches those in spirit prison can eventually travel to paradise under certain conditions, it is not explicitly taught in scripture. "If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise" (Gospel Principles, chapter 41). Doctrine and Covenants 138 only shows the righteous (in paradise) being commissioned to go forth to preach the gospel to the lost (to those in spirit prison). But Doctrine and Covenants 76:73 -75 has Jesus visiting the terrestrial inhabitants – "And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh; Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men". This seems to mark a time before their conversion and acceptance of the saving ordinances performed in the LDS Church. Some of these honorable people were the wicked Hindus and Buddhists, who while living devout and noble lives, still followed their false leaders instead of believing Christian evangelists. As we noted earlier, those who received a testimony of Jesus in the flesh, and who had died, were in paradise. The terrestrials are identified as "honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men". I would classify some of these as devout or nice people who heard about but rejected the gospel of Christ in mortality and listened to false teachers instead. In God's eyes, they are the wicked; the condemned. Let's call them "group 1". Another group of people could be classified as honorable – those who were devout in their religious or atheist/agnostic beliefs, were nice people, but never heard the gospel. They too were blinded somehow by the craftiness of men. They are wicked too. Let's call them "group 2". I believe the following verses in the gospel according to John would be more applicable to terrestrial group 1: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil". Do the terrestrials have the "paradise" qualifications of Doctrine and Covenants 138:12-15? No. Did Christ visit those whose deeds were evil in God's eyes and had died? According to Doctrine and Covenants 76:73, I would say yes. Based on what I provided about the LDS Church teachings, paradise and spirit prison are subsets of the spirit world. The introduction notes of Alma 40 says: "Christ brings to pass the resurrection of all men—The righteous dead go to paradise and the wicked to outer darkness to await the day of their resurrection". Alma 34:32-35 describes this further. I see that Doctrine and Covenants 137 is a picture of those who are taught to have achieved their exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God. In another place it's called the celestial kingdom of heaven. The word "heirs" of the celestial kingdom of God in verse 7 is linked to D&C 76:50-70 (TG Exaltation). These are the gods/priests/kings of the Church of the Firstborn. They come forth in the first resurrection.

Women may not see themselves as allowed to have me time if having young children (hopefully it’s much less than when I was young) and they also may not find it as easy to arrange depending on if others are young mothers juggling jobs, etc, especially if pregnant or breastfeeding. Me time can also look very different for individuals (me time for me would be by myself like taking a pottery class or even just going to the library or a craft store, not socializing), so it should be more about each having time apart from the family than similar opportunities to do the same thing. And the other spouse needs to keep quiet about whatever the other chooses being a waste of time if they think it’s frivolous or senseless. Now if it is expensive, then there may need to be input. Setting a budget for equal fun money (even if one spouse earns much more than another, that’s money isn’t just their own if the other spouse is contributing to their ability to work while having a family) is a good idea as well. Both need to have equal scheduled time away with the other partner covering and not where one covers for their spouse and then makes arrangements for a friend to cover their own time or the spouse pays for a babysitter. It’s about making a personal sacrifice to ensure the other gets their needs taken care of too. It’s showing you value the other so much that was is important to them is important to you just because it’s important to them. You may think it’s the most idiotic idea on earth, but you still support and don’t devalue it as a waste of time because if it makes then feel better, it has great value. My husband really wanted to take up driving the team bus for UVU’s sports teams while that would be hell on earth for me. And while I can intellectually accept it’s ’restful’ for him, I can not wrap my head around it. And he knows all that, but he also knows I see it as important for him to do it. He was even getting very frustrated not having a drive at least once a week as that was his mental health/escape activity. Now he’s done it long enough that the late and early hours and having to clean the bus himself at midnight rather than heading straight home to bed have dimmed the appeal some and by December, maybe even before before he will be ready for his next project (so far chickens are the only long term project that has stuck, but maybe he will get back into pottery once he is no longer driving). Since I can’t drive, that wipes out a lot of options for my me time and since I spend most of the day in bed doing whatever I want, I just assume that’s my me time. That may change as I get more active (things are working out and looking better, now if only my head stabilizes so I can drive or bike.) Ideally my me time would be swimming three times a week around the same time, but since I can’t drive that involves him being available (I haven’t been able to find a friend to pay to drive and Uber is too anxiety producing). While he understands the importance, he hasn’t yet been able to comprehend the requirement of predictability and how his unpredictable bus schedule breaks my routine since he would just switch days or times, but I need it to be mindless, first thing when getting out of bed, so I never get a chance to ask the question “is this really the best thing for me to do today”? as I can always find a better use of my time. So we haven’t quite got the balance yet, but he’s only been retired a little over a year. Learning to work with each other takes time. What is needed in is for both partners to sit done and set up a reasonable and significant/meaningful amount and give it to both with rules on interruption that apply meaningfully to both and ways to make up for lost time. I would say if it was my rules that anyone who has to come home has twice as much time to replace it to make up for the disappointment. If one partner refuses to use their me time or fun money, that shouldn’t be allowed to be used to blackmail the other into giving up their time either. That is why it is so important to have a formal arrangement beforehand and that gets reevaluated on a schedule so that when things get changed as they always do, there is minimal resentment because of false expectations.

I just aways wanted to know what particular point or points he wanted to discuss. I can't comment on what others wanted.

My take is Zealous really wanted to discuss the topic, but only within a very particular, pregurgitated framing (laid out in the video). That framing came with some dodgy elements. It seemed to me he felt that later elements in the video would make the dodgy ones more palatable. Meanwhile you and others were wondering why the dodgy bits couldn't be allowed to stand on their own. Do I have it?

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I'm a little frustrated with this. I just don't have time to watch all he movies that get posted here. I told you that a 41 minute video wasn't a priority for me and asked what you wanted to discuss. I tried to list my concerns with the saying and included the one you said you wanted to discuss. Later you brought up another topic you wanted to discuss which happened to be in the things I listed. So if you didn't want to discuss either of those things is there a time stamp of what you did want to discuss? I feel like neither of us like that saying so it should put us in common somehow.

It has been written down many a time. But you are correct when it’s me you are talking about. I live with lists, especially now my memory is so sporadic. My husband likely has ADHD though, he can have endless lists from me and himself, but that doesn’t mean he will look at them. There have been somethings that work (typically the Alexa shopping list will work, texts are not that great, emails and notes on the refrigerator or stuff waiting at the backdoor are useless).

I am speaking in general. Should they be ignored, should they be included by others at other times or should we just not worry about it and let people say whatever they want without regard to who is listening? (Not rhetorical, sincere question. First off I think you did a really good thing, went the extra mile and having a relative I have who I can do exactly what they tell me to do and it can still upset them, I understand feeling helpless/hopeless on getting stuff right, but again I am curious…I am nosy. I like learning how people handle relationships because I can always learn even if it’s a problematic situation. Had you asked her for suggestions on what to cook and how to best deliver it beforehand? I know with depression, being asked to make decisions can be overwhelming and I have told my husband at times he just needs to handle it himself…which means it’s not always how I want it. I don’t think I have ever been upset in those cases, but my memory gets messed up when depressed so maybe I have. These days I ask for what they want first, but offer to make the decision if too much. You probably know this already, but just in case. Depression (and anxiety) is an insidious disease because it prevents us from reaching out and getting the help we need. The only reason I ever got to a therapist was because I was willing to do it for my daughter and I just piggybacked on her appointment. Even now when depression is pretty controlled the idea of trying to find one that works for me is so overwhelming I just can’t face it. This time I don’t want to share one with my daughter and yet another doctor’s appointment on my calendar, I just can’t do it. It is about the stupidest, self defeating behaviour and yet extremely common for those with depression. It is actually painful to try and think about adding to the list of have to that already feels miles long. All this to say, chances are even if your sister wants to and needs to, she likely won’t reach out because she is not capable of doing so….though she might be a rare exception. If she isn’t an exception…. It’s not about being lazy or having enough grit as there are plenty of things she is probably gritting herself through if she is like most with depression I know. It is something different. It’s about one’s mind not allowing one to think certain ways. It is absolutely insane looking at myself knowing it is irrational and yet I somethings just can’t be done. Long winded…if you actually do want to keep in touch with her, it probably needs to come from your side. Not sure what you should do because it’s very individual. If you have a relationship with her partner, perhaps you could ask them for suggestions on how to keep the lines truly open with minimal pressure for all involved. And to be honest, it may not be right for you to put the effort in as you have your own struggles in life and may have your own limits. No one should ever feel guilty for saying no if it’s necessary for oneself or for someone you are caring for (my social life is very limited because my energy needs to be saved for myself and my daughter). I just think it can be unfortunate to shutdown certain opportunities if there is a different way we can actually make it work.

Oh funny...they say it at the very end of the video.

I'm really having a rough time with this post that I'm writing. This all hit on lots of my sensitive buttons at one time, but I absolutely like to believe in the goodness in others and, believe it or not, usually see others in a good light and that if there are problems it is usually a communication problem. I didn't show that benefit of the doubt to @ZealouslyStriving in this thread and for that I apologize. I let my sensitivities take precedence over relationships and for that I was wrong. I'm sorry that I didn't just ignore this thread.

Why do you do this? if it’s required to watch the entire half hour to participate in the original question , please indicate so. Im happy to not engage or if I feel strongly I’ll watch the video in its entirety. I watched a portion of it. I’m sorry .

Nope, it’s just something I heard awhile ago and I liked it, lol.

You listened! They say that at the end.

Don't go, I'm currently listening, and at the point they're discussing men's higher rate of suicide. I think it's paramount that couples talk about each of their own needs. Then they might, hopefully will, figure out what works best. They mention the man that loved pickleball and was a good player and then getting called home to help his wife put one child to bed. I am on board with him not having to if the wife is maybe just a bit jealous that her husband is enjoying himself and she isn't. I'm just adding a part to the story because it might be that scenario. It made me think of my son who is in the middle of deciding with his wife if they should stick out their marriage. They've been married nearly a year. She's unhappy with him playing video games with his brothers and some friends at night. He makes sure it doesn't interfere with time with her. And it's not every night but a few at most. She is from Ecuador and hasn't made many friends yet, so she feels lonely. But it almost seems like the same story because he has nearly stopped all of the video games with his brothers. She recently let him play I believe. So I get that. And he's doing all he can to hold the marriage together. She of course misses her family from Ecuador. But I see a problem with the men who maybe need to stand up for themselves, along with the women. Each need to sit down and figure things out for the good of all. I think this was a great video, thanks for sharing and sorry if I was at first wary of it. I'm grateful my husband supports my pickleball joy.

Sorry - religious people who believe in a limited heaven. I see anyone who believes in a limited heaven as loving their church more than people. Difficult to have a meaningful relashionship with anyone who prioritizes and hopes for their particular dogma more than connection with real people. Heaven/goals/greatest hope for some is to be one of the few chosen elect to rule and reign over other lesser individuals who refuse to agree with some dogma. Heaven/goals/greatest hope for others is connection between everyone, all humanity equally loved, equally united, together with everyone - no heirarchy. Heaven for the athiest, tao, zen? It is - Drop of water returns to ocean idea. Energy, information, matter, it is all just mixed together in the end - literally mixed in with everyone and everything - together foreverwith it all - have always been together. That's what brings me peace. "That's just me in a different life", or thinking it all gets mixed into the same bowl in the end. Ultimate togetherness

a goal that is NOT written down is merely a wish . . .

Seems many are just reacting to my inarticulate explanations instead of actually watching the video. This is all so pointless... I'll see myself out. 👋🏻

I didn’t realize so many men were suiciding due to Karen-itis. I haven’t seen that in my family practice so I was unaware. In fact I’m taking a continuing Ed course right now and it indicated that loss of status is a top indicator for male suicide. Loss of job, money, divorce, etc. No mention of mousy behavior caused by women being overbearing influencing the stats. I will say I do know a few intense women who are partnered with invisible men. It’s a rough scene, and neither the husband or wife seem happy. It’s a rough dynamic. They both feel forced into a corner and cry victim of the other.

If this is what they attribute as a contributing factor for the rate with men, to what do they attribute women attempting at a rate three times as high? Do they feel that men are failing miserably at the stated goal for stifling those things, or that their self-flagellated misery and bitterness is actually adversely impacting women exponentially more than it is them?

Generalizing a specific case to everyone alive? Sounds fun. Why are you hiding your bisexuality from the world? You should get that ADHD treated. Also learn to pay attention in church meetings you easily distracted weirdo. I love this. I talked to irony and he said he just can’t engage with this. It is just too blatant.