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Everything posted by Calm

  1. I highly doubt it is a value issue instead of having additional needs that are seen important and more likely to occur if surrounded by guns on a daily basis as opposed to the very low statistic of being shot in a mass shooting at school. And that is the ones making the rules are more focused on letting children be able to be children without adult cares and not have guns as part of their reality. Part of protecting children is protecting them from harsh realities, from fear. You don’t tell your kids you are worried about having money to cover the mortgage, for example. School is thought, I am guessing, to be seen as a safer place if children don’t see and therefore won’t think about guns while in school. However, my guess is with the mass of news surrounding kids these days, the above is an unrealistic dream and kids will feel safer with armed security people around. I am not sure about having teachers armed, but if our country has allowed the proliferation of guns so they are easy to get, we need to live with the consequences and pay for greater security measures in school. I’d ask my sister, the grade 5 teacher, what she thinks about allowing guns in school for security measures, but she probably is too freaked right now and needs to have space from the tragedy when at home. (She was obsessive about cleaning and Covid masks because she couldn’t bear thinking she might pass in Covid to a child or another teacher, who then suffered from a bad case, little fear for herself.)
  2. Well, now I am thinking about you in a somewhat different light. Got to ask…Why?
  3. Why not remove historians and accountants and building maintenance and allow the righteous to work through discernment and revelation? Why have any Family Services people? Why did Brigham hire an architect for the temple once it had apparently been revealed? What is risk to you is actual pain for others, hopefully the cries won’t disturbed the privileged. Shouldn’t let the vulnerable hold anyone back, not like we are supposed to be picking them up and carrying them along with us.
  4. Great response, lol. There is a fetish with virgins, untouched by anyone else but the predator I believe. I find that repugnant as well, as if a sexual partner is property one has a right to completely own.
  5. Ach! Is it okay to just point out that someone is not technically a pedophile because I think it can create misunderstandings and confusion about several things? I actually would raise age of consent laws if the partner is not a minor as well. I know the term “ephebophile”, but forget how to spell it, so rarely use it.
  6. The Church recognizes the importance of having trained historians researching and preserving the history, it recognizes the importance of having trained auditors overseeing the financial operations of wards and the Church in general. They use professionally trained individuals in the building and maintenance operations of the Church. It has legal assistance for its bishops when necessary. It already has professional counselors working in Family Services. Is it such a stretch to add some level of professional oversight for members when dealing with leaders in other highly sensitive, problematic areas?
  7. Again, overstating the positions of others. Adding an additional layer of pastoral care and communication through a more impartial, trained individual would obviously not solve all problems. It could prevent some significant ones though.
  8. No, there hasn’t. But we are addressing when friendship or other connections between leaders interfere with balanced judgment. Just because something hasn’t been mentioned in a particular context doesn’t mean it is being dismissed.
  9. Nope. Competent means one is generally capable of avoiding big mistakes, but they are not magically protected from doing so. Competent people make big mistakes all the time because they are overworked, distracted, and especially overconfident. Sometimes they are so used to being right all the time, they don’t always stop and consider they may be wrong. My very competent father listened to a competent friend of his who had gotten overly excited about a piece of property and my dad lost a good chuck of money because the area was never developed. My mother had counseled him not to buy it. I have a relative with an excellent driving record who crashed his car because he made the choice to push himself to get to their destination that day and he fell asleep and unfortunately reduced his passenger to the level of a 6 year old for the rest of her life. My husband is a very competent and safe motorcyclist, but was anxious to get to work and came too close behind a car which suddenly turned in front of him, giving him a broken rib and punctured lung because he had decided to carry his laptop in a bag on his side that day and fell on it when he had to lay his bike down to avoid collision. —— Very competent, very sharp church, absolutely fantastic leaders I was personally acquainted with allowed an unrepentant apostate and adulterer to teach youth because they chose to believe his no doubt highly persuasive public displays of repentance while choosing to dismiss the claims of the woman he had abused and continued to harass. In another case in an old ward, a very competent bishop chose to follow standard policy even though exceptions were allowed and it resulted in a special needs child and his mother having to miss church completely because they wouldn’t make necessary adjustments for him. This was a major hardship for the mother who depended on church in many ways as well as it isolated the child. In the case of Meadowchik, it sounds like her bishop was quite good and competent, which is why she trusted him when he stepped out of his comfort zone and interfered with a legal dispute, the result was increased danger for her family and a withdrawal of access to part of the support system normally given to faithful members, the temple.
  10. Because someone who is competent never makes a big mistake?
  11. I was thinking this would be the background of at least one of the couple missionaries. Should have made that clear. I was thinking there would be a benefit to having individuals who did not have local attachments, so my mind went to missionaries…but sufficient training for the more complicated stuff would likely only come through professional venues, so getting a retired social worker, mediator, etc volunteer for the position like they do with other specialized callings (just saw a request for an accountant who specializes in oil and gas resources) for missions seems like the easiest at times put something like this in place. The recruitment aspect is at least already in place.
  12. It keeps my mind active as well, which is rather important right now to fight brain fog.
  13. In rereading your comments, it sounds like the leaders had the best of intentions, but lack of training and lack of accurate awareness of enough of the context (since they were getting fed tons of false info from the mentally and emotionally unstable tenant) contributed to them increasing the trouble, not lowering the conflict as they supposed they could. I have through this thread become more open to the idea of an ombudsman, not because of you though, but rather the reactions to your idea and others’ difficult situations underline where difficulties lie and leads me to believe there is a greater need for something more organized than I thought. I was thinking more of just a part time (hopefully) assistant for an area seventy (someone contacts the seventy and he refers them to his specialist assistant) as I am guessing the seventy’s plate is already quite full and this seems something that needs full attention when someone is in crisis to avoid delays and further unnecessary traumatizing if a more difficult situation, plus having a limited calling means less distractions which means less likely to miss something important as well as greater chance of developing significant familiarity with social resources in the community. Training would be limited to this area and so could be more in depth without being too invasive in their time. Leadership might even be able to find someone with similar training in their profession to handle it. However, perhaps the role needs to be a separate ‘line of authority’ instead of an assistant to avoid the inherent biases that will exist and should exist in social relationships. We need to care for and be loyal to our friends and I would hope the men who work with each other in local and higher leadership positions in the church are good friends….And are loyal and supportive of each other. But this creates the need for independent oversight when analyzing effectiveness and potentially more negative qualities of leaders’ pastoral care. A service missionary or missionary couple might be useful here, someone from out of the area would not have the longterm friendships that could get in the way, though they would need training in local resources…maybe overlap the missions for a month or two to take advantage of the previous missionaries’ experience and to prevent losing track of cases with the turnover.
  14. Meadowchik’s story did involve the Bishop interfering with possible consequences to her family’s life and property because the tenant was unstable, a tenant who threatened to kill her husband and was suggestive about the rest of her family https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/67314-church-disciplinary-councils-regarding-disputes-between-members/ The neighbor was following Smac’s advice and going to the SP while Meadowchik was attempting to respect and work with her Bishop. The result was the SP listened to the neighbour and told the Bishop to pull her recommend. Because she wasn’t the one complaining. Getting her recommend pulled on top of the rest of the baggage her leaders dropped on her family is not just an emotional issue. There is a physical cost to living under daily harassment and even if the Bishop (and likely the SP as well) was not approving of the harassment, he was enabling it…not intentionally, but it was still happening. This wasn’t just a civil dispute, but it was a 24/7 in her home harassment Meadowchik and her family were enduring. It was where they lived, in their home territory, which is supposed to be the place of refuge. My memory is there were also some legal deadlines missed because of following the counsel of the Bishop (he assured them bills would be paid so they dropped court proceedings, the thread mentions the advice, but not the aftermath), which made the situation with the neighbor even more unstable and indefinite and therefore dangerous and resource intensive. I may be conflating it with another case though. I tried finding the thread where she shared later events, but couldn’t find it. My finding and posting this thread in no way is meant to suggest Meadowchik owes any explanation or details of her personal experience. I appreciated the chance to refresh my memory and thought others might as well without hopefully requiring any more investment by Meadowchik into that difficult time.
  15. If only we could see ourselves as others see us.
  16. Or maybe you are misinterpreting what bsjkki is saying and it is not her who has created the adversarial picture.
  17. I am really not seeing it in her language. Seeing it in yours though.
  18. But deprivation of community and often opportunity to contribute to others, both essential needs in our lives, and the Church is sometimes the primary source of both in someone’s life at different stages of their life, especially if they have invested their past leisure time into their callings and ministering of others. To have those taken away by leaders can be spirit draining.
  19. How would you know? Serious question. Most members I have know off line who have had significant, disturbing issues at stake level in the end drop it and just keep attending in pain and hope over time the pain gets less or they develop a thicker skin or if they lose hope and just feel too beaten down, they quietly leave the Church. They would never show up on a database and most other members would never know. The older I get, the more trusting relationships I have established, the more I am finding members who have had major issues with leaders who I am shocked over because they are still fully in and typically uncomplaining. I really hope it is rare, but I seriously wonder if it is not. Just to be clear, I am talking about damaging pastoral care of some kind, that may involve sexual abuse, but most often does not in the stories that I have been told.
  20. Just compare it to mine. If I am not wasting my time (and I am not), how can you be?
  21. It does? How so? Unless one of the two parties to the discussion (the individual or the stake president) behaves improperly by publicizing the dispute to other members of the ward, this sort of thing seems . . . unlikely. If you can’t elaborate the circumstances you were involved in and expect us to take you at your word you experienced whatever, why are you refusing to take bsjkki at her word? She is hardly a typically over dramatic poster.
  22. How much you being who you are affects that, do you think? My dad was able to get things done relatively easily. 6’2”, lean and athletic, handsome with strong features, very charming, a slightly intimidating face though…the family says he had a gangster look about him when he wasn’t smiling…oozing self confidence, the world was his and everyone around him told him so as he was growing up as far as I can tell. His motto was you could do anything if you were just committed to it enough and he was frequently exasperated when those around him failed or expressed frustration at how hard something was. He just didn’t see anything as that difficult and often it wasn’t when he stepped in to take care of stuff as he was very smart and very capable. What really got him annoyed was when we set up agreements (he treated parenting kind of like a business), but we folded before the goal was reached because he just didn’t see why we couldn’t stick with it like he did when he was committed to something…which was so absolutely frustrating to me because he was clueless it was him being the obstacle to our success because he was off doing something else worthwhile and not providing the support he promised. His motto worked for him because many people (family and employees) would set aside what we were doing and take care of a request from him immediately…and this impact on others didn’t register with him, not because he saw himself as more important, but because it didn’t occur to him he was interrupting. There were several ‘contracts’ I gave up on with him because he wasn’t following through on his part of the contract, responding back after I sent him my part or did my thing and I didn’t know what was next expected of me because of lack of feedback and then having to face him when he showed up thinking everything was in place and I couldn’t explain to him why…took me into my 40’s watching from afar (Canada )to figure what had been going on all along. He could never see the turmoil he stirred up by passing through. He was insulted when I told him how everyone in the family would often drop what they were doing, mess up their attempts to establish routines, or whatever they were doing to attend to his needs first as he saw himself as more or less self sufficient. He thought I was calling him selfish and a coddled child more or less The one blip in his life was his difficulty in getting along with some of his bosses. He got stuck in promotion; worked for United Airlines, he oversaw the entire San Francisco part of maintenance operations which iirc was the primary center for that side of operation, was at least for the West…massive operation, but never got the next one or two steps up to be a Vice President because he would never complete a master’s as he was too bored in class, knowing all of it already; he would drop out after a few classes rather than endure it. He liked his current job and the only reason promotion was appealing (since he would be much more into the paperwork, administration side and working with the suits) was the money and not having to work to be bossed by men threatened by him as they were younger than him and with less experience, but with that crucial degree which he was so dismissive of. His typical approach was to bypass and go to the ‘supervisor’ if he couldn’t handle it himself, earning him a number of enemies. He couldn’t understand why since he got the job done and done well. And generally he was in the position he could pretty much ignore it (I think bosses got transferred/promoted a lot, he did help in making most of them look good) until the years of oblivion to his Godzilla ways caught up and he lost his backing and a particularly bad boss caused him to retire early and set up a consulting business. All that to explain why when someone has a position of decent power and knows how to use it, etc tells me something is relatively easy, rather simple even, I tend to smile and roll my eyes a bit. A lot of times highly effective people are unaware of the advantages they have, especially if they make use of them well for others. The waves are mostly behind them and it appears smooth sailing in front because others often get out of their way even without asking. Why wouldn’t anyone if they benefit from the effective person’s success? And when someone doesn’t move, they get to face the certainty, the confidence. It can be hard to resist the appearance of sincere, unquestioned confidence unless one has the same faith in oneself and one’s position.
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