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The Nehor

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  1. How can I refute such a withering and conclusive rebuttal?
  2. Court has to certify that a class action status is warranted and reasonable for the plaintiffs by certifying it. This happens before the hearings and/or settlements over the merits start. If the class action case survives early dismissal they would have to make an effort to contact anyone who could be part of the class action to let them know they can opt in. I don’t think this case will get that far. IANAL and Utah law could be different from what I know when I researched it due to being part of few such lawsuits. Most of what I know comes from being part of four (iirc) class action lawsuits over the years. Got checks for all four. Usually took about a year from me being notified iirc.
  3. I have an older friend who was on a mission in the US south in 1978. He said there were some incensed people including his then companion. Also some members who stopped coming. Reported his companion went home and laid down in his bed hitting his fist repeatedly against the wall repeating: “I can’t believe they gave the (fill in the blank with obvious plural word here) the Priesthood” for several hours.
  4. The prevalence of nasty budget lunch meet does not mean there are cadres of communists infesting America. If the “commies” are more prevalent than MAGA then how did MAGA take over their whole party? How many Democrats in Congress advocate for the abolishment of private property? And why haven’t these firebrands taken control? And no, universal healthcare is not communism. Neither is a higher minimum wage or a progressive tax system.
  5. I think the issue is that if you do it for a bad person it turns out being a farce later. Good people are often embarrassed and uncomfortable with it. Who exactly benefits from the process? I get Kenngo’s point but I don’t think helping someone depressed realize how much good they have done is anything like naming a building or holiday after someone.
  6. “I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.” - FDR This and many quotes with the same general meaning exist from all kinds of people throughout history. By this standard God’s enemies are a bunch of putz spirits and some deranged fallen mortals. One of the best arguments for the goodness of God I have heard.
  7. It is also worth noting that in the early days of this dispensation it was not unusual to get rebaptized as a show of devotion to God. All the apostles in the Salt Lake Valley were rebaptized at one point. Some members were rebaptized after being healed or before marriage or before going to the temple and the like. The practice was ended by Joseph F. Smith but it is not sinful in itself. Being rebaptized due to the Savior reorganizing his church seems like it fits the general idea of doing it as part of a life changing event.
  8. Those who do hope for such a “baseless” change would disagree with you. Since you haven’t shown any “base” for the expectation in 1978 other than hope and possible personal inspiration the two situations are not as different as you seem to conclude. Maybe the ratios are different in how many desire the change? Would that just mean it is currently the equivalent of 1955 and as the numbers change the number of those who hope and pray for such a change increase? It may not happen of course but you haven’t shown any real difference in conditions.
  9. Just as a side note there is really not a good way to IP ban people anymore. I can change my IP by turning off my WiFi and connecting with my phone. There was a brief period where some sites would ban a range of IP addresses from an Internet Service Provider to get rid of a poster if the ISP used a predefined IP range but that doesn’t work that well either. If you want to hide your IP address you can. You can also sneak in a cookie to ban someone but that can be circumvented. The general approach on a lot of forums is to either use some kind of whitelist process where you restrict new posters to some limited activities (already on this board) or, if being on the website is engaging enough to allow it, charge a nominal fee to join so you lose money each time you are banned, or screen new users to people you or others on the board know via login or something like that. There is a reason the rash of new social media sites that show up dedicated to some specific ideology are almost always torn apart by their opponents. In one recent case it was trashed before the website even launched. That reason is that security is HARD!
  10. I think you would be hard-pressed to back that up with any apostolic quotes. The earliest stuff suggested Millenium at the earliest and based on the “Curse of Cain” explanation there are quotes about it being denied until the end or until Abel had a chance to have posterity and other things that didn’t suggest it would still be in the fallen world. If there is anything since I would like to hear it. If you are saying members at the time believed it could happen at any time then yes, that is possible but it is hard to tie that belief as being based on revelation from prophets and apostles. I would be glad to be proven wrong.
  11. Private theory. I suspect that (most) of those who entered this mortality in its fallen state had already fallen. I have only guesses as to how. I suspect the normal plan involves progressing in a Terrestrial environment until God tells you you are ready and then you eat the fruit to understand evil and then resist the devil (without falling from Terrestrial state unless you succumb). If some spirits had already fallen then the deliberate Fall of Adam and Eve was them voluntarily surrendering their progression for a time and risking everything in a desperate rescue mission to save fallen spirits who had no other way out. They are born here in the only world capable of taking them with an atonement to save them though I suspect the atonement may also offer a chance to those who fell other ways at other times in other worlds but that is just a vague guess. It makes sense of a lot of evil. It makes it so that those who suffer in this world deserve to be here even if they don’t directly deserve the exact suffering they endure. It provides an explanation for those born in the Millenium being different (never fell) and makes Adam and Eve’s sacrifice real and explains the jiggery pokery of the Garden story. They basically hacked the normal method of progression in a desperate rescue mission. It also makes the plan much more salvation heavy. As far as we know fallen spirits are doomed to whatever Outer Darkness is. Coming to this world will up the post-death status of almost everyone who ever lived. Then again I could be wrong. There are two scriptures that shoot the idea down to some extent and my patriarchal blessing suggests something different but I don’t trust the latter much anymore so who knows?
  12. I’m too tired to hunt for a real one so just imagine this sentence isn’t here and instead there is an amusing gif or pic of an ostrich with its head in the sand with a witty one liner on it.
  13. If this teaching is generalized the effect is horrifying. It basically tells you that what is evil is actually good because the results are good. That suffering is good as long as good comes of it. Does this reality end with death or is hell inherently good because of what it does? Perhaps the everlasting burnings of exaltation in Celestial glory are still endless but also torturously painful but God discovered long ago that this kind of torment is good for the sufferer so enduring it forever is, in fact, good. Of course the difference with the pushbike example is that God knows who will and will not fall off in advance. I also find a weird tension between the idea that God is ‘letting us off the leash’ to learn on our own and then you turn to the gospel with admonitions to ‘pray always’ and ‘look unto God with every thought’. I think the whole “go out on your own to learn to be more independent” teaching might be an analogy that took on a life of its own. Then again, I could be way off. I am way too cynical in these areas. I don’t trust myself so other people probably shouldn’t either.
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