Stargazer

You're limiting Heavenly Father's dreams for you, though. Here's what He wants for you, if you're willing: Revelation 3:21 - "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." In other words, there's a throne waiting for you, if you'll have it. Matthew 28:21 - One of the parables - "His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." How many things? Romans 8:16-17 - "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." Some key words here are "heirs of God," "joint-heirs with Christ," "glorified." Kinda harks to Rev. 3:21, don't it? 1 John 3:2 - "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." The key phrase here is "we shall be like him." Like who? God. When Jesus tells his disciples to be perfect like their Father in Heaven is perfect, is this an impossible command? Does Jesus give commands He knows cannot be obeyed? You seem to want to deny that God wants you to be like Him. This is a typical Platonic and Aristotelian case of the "Ideals." You can't be ideal, say the pagan philosophers. You're nothing but dirt; maybe a higher quality of dirt, but dirt nonetheless. Unfortunately, this contradicts scripture.

As Paul once aptly put it, we see but through a glass, darkly. A person living in Paul's day is not going to imagine a planet, is he? Even though there are sufficient indications in canonized scripture that the eternal reward of the faithful is greater than we can imagine, even the King James translators restricted themselves to a fancy building referred to as a mansion. To a person living as a regular person in Judea at the time of Jesus, what did they imagine it to be? Of course, we with our astronomical knowledge expand it to a planet. And if a planet, why not a solar system, or perhaps an entire galaxy! I go so far as a universe. Why not? I have no idea. But I get the impression that most Christians imagine heaven to be a place just like Earth, but with better real estate, luxury food, and terabit internet. Considering the "In my Father's house are many mansions" quote, how opulent are these mansions, anyway? But it turns out that the term "mansion" in the KJV means something quite different now than it did in King Jimmy's time. Here's an interesting video on the subject I found:

Everyone in all ages have been fettered by the prevailing notions of their days. Unfortunately, many prefer the siren call of presentism rather than a consideration of the surrounding culture for historical persons.

One way to reduce distractions is is to sit as close to the front as one can. My late wife liked to do that (as did I), and that helped a lot to avoid distractions, and to pay attention to the speaker. But my current wife has always preferred to sit way in the back, mostly because she is the Primary pianist and when the closing hymn in Sacrament meeting starts, she gets up to head to the Primary room. So I sat back there with her, and I would definitely break out my phone and besides using the Library app as a hymnbook, I'd also use it to look up scriptures, Wikipedia articles on things mentioned in the talk, and sometimes if the talk was not compelling, I'd distract myself with topics I found on my phone. Another way to reduce distractions is to get called into the bishopric (an option not open to all, obviously). If one is in the bishopric and sitting on the stand for the whole meeting one doesn't want to be a bad example, so one must mostly stay off one's phone, except for the hymn singing. When I was in this position I found that I became hyper-focused on what was happening, and listening to the speaker -- and for some reason this hyper-focus made the entire meeting much more rewarding from a spirituality perspective. And I became quite joyful about being at church, generally. In respect of the second hour, if one makes an effort to read the Come, Follow Me topic and the corresponding scripture, this increases one's ability to appreciate the discussion in Sunday School. Same with watching or reading the assigned general conference talk in advance of the priesthood/relief society session. Something that has improved my own worship and general spirituality has been participating with the full-time missionaries in helping them teach their investigators.

Thank you for your lovely words! Much appreciated! Mi kyan andastan Jumiekan Patwa likl bit, bot mi afi yuuz Guugl Chranzlate fi andastan aal a wa yu miin. But feel free fi keep writing dat way, mi bredda!

I ran that text through Google Translate. Because while I recognized it as Jamaican Patois, I was having trouble getting the full meaning. Here's what he wrote as GT has it: Hey bro,!!!! thank you for your honest post—it really touched me because I know that stagnant feeling all too well. I grew up as a skinny Jamaican boy in Kingston, where life was full of vibrant sounds, strong family prayers, and real struggles like stretching meals of rice and kaloo, and church often felt more like background noise while my mind wandered to football or worries. But when I came to the restored Gospel taught me that the Lord saw that little island boy and wanted to make worship deeply personal. To combat the phone scrolling in sacrament meeting, I now prepare my heart beforehand by reading just one chapter, like 3 Nephi 11 or Alma 34, picturing the Savior right there with me as I take d i sacrament, letting it cover my distractions and weaknesses like it did for that hungry kid, I used to be distracted. In the temple, I bring a simple question or family name and let the ordinances flow like the rhythmic music I grew up with, feeling the covenants turn my ordinary life into something covenantal and powerful. Nephi’s words in 2 Nephi 4:18-19 keep me going—“O wretched man that I am… Nevertheless, I know in whom I have trust”—reminding me that even with our flaws, consistent small efforts bring real Spirit. The Lord is not disappointed in your struggle, brother; He’s waiting to meet you in those quiet moments. Start small, keep turning to Him, and watch your worship come alive—you get this through Christ. God bless you and your journey!

I was checking out the comments to a Ward Radio episode on YouTube channel (Jews & Mormons Have More in Common Than You Think (feat. Shabbos Kestenbaum from PragerU)). A question came up in the comments as to the lack of a Hebrew language Book of Mormon. I became curious, since I had seen photos of such a translation many years ago. I checked out the Church website, but there isn't a Hebrew translation available there online. I researched further, and apparently the Church did produce a partial translation into Hebrew in the 1980s (the one I saw) but it wasn't generally available and is no longer in print. At some point, by contract with the Israeli government, the Church agreed not to produce a Hebrew translation. I asked Bing CoPilot about this. I asked "is the book of mormon available in Hebrew?" Turns out the answer is YES! In modern Hebrew, anyway. But it isn't available from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but from an Israel-based research institute, the Institute of Ancient Studies. It overcomes copyright restrictions by using the 1830 and 1920 editions. The website for the Hebrew translation is: https://www.bookofmormoninhebrew.org/? Here's what CoPilot said about it: The Book of Mormon has been translated into Hebrew, with a modern translation completed between 2018 and 2024 by professional Israeli linguists. Modern Hebrew Translation The most recent Hebrew translation of the Book of Mormon was completed by a team of four professional Israeli linguists over the years 2018–2024. This translation is based primarily on the 1830 English edition of the Book of Mormon, with some reference to the 1920 edition, and was published in Israel by the Institute of Ancient Studies, which operates independently of any church or religious organization. This translation aims to make the text accessible to Hebrew-speaking audiences while maintaining fidelity to the original English text. Historical and Scriptural Context The Book of Mormon was originally written in a form of ancient language and translated into English by Joseph Smith in the early 19th century. Hebrew translations are significant because the text was intended to eventually reach the scattered remnants of Israel, including Jewish communities, fulfilling a prophetic mandate described in the Book of Mormon itself . Hebrew, being the native language of over 5 million Jews and the national language of Israel, is therefore a critical medium for this purpose. Purpose and Audience The Hebrew translation is intended to reach Jewish readers who are familiar with Biblical Hebrew, as modern Hebrew alone may not convey the scriptural tone of the original text. Previous Hebrew translations existed but were of lower quality and are now out of print. The current translation seeks to preserve the scriptural style, grammar, and poetic elements, making it suitable for study and religious reflection. ----------- It's not very expensive, actually, but add in shipping and the price shoots up like a SpaceX rocket.

I don't think that your point does still hold. But I, like you, see only through a glass, darkly. So we disagree but only on an obscure point. I shan't fuss over it. But you remind me of something I heard asserted on a YouTube video about how Jesus's atonement covered not only the sins we committed in mortality, but that it retroactively reaches back to what we might have done wrong in the pre-existence as well. And adds another layer to the disciples' question to Jesus about the man born blind, whether his blindness was caused by sin he committed before he was born. We usually use that passage as a proof-text for the pre-existence, but it seems it could also work for forgiveness of sins committed in premortal life.

Good question. It was their choice. In the pre-existence the devil and his angels chose to rebel against the Father whom they knew to be the Father, whom they beheld as the Father. The Sons of Perdition who rebel against the same knowledge in mortality chose the same fate. "Done for" is my crude English term for what is expressed in DC 76 as "[He] saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him. Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment". They chose. Maybe. Have you ever done something while asking yourself "Why am I doing this? This is wrong!" I remember getting very angry at someone once while at the same time my "inner self" was telling me something like "Oh, good grief, cut it out you idiot!" I'm not exactly sure who that "inner self" was, but I have the suspicion my anger was being directed by my "natural man." And the "inner self" was my eternal spirit reaching out to control that man. I'm usually very self-controlled, but sometimes, very rarely, I lose it. But even then I try to cover it up. I'm probably not even close to addressing what you wrote here.

Another cool video from The Hu! This one is all in Mongolian (with Cyrillic subtitles), but who cares? The English lyrics can be found in the video's description, but I've reproduced them below the video here. Lyrics in English: Father of mine, you used to tell me with no words You used to sit in silence, watching the distance You used to let me see the hardships of life on my own You were aware that I would see much in the times to come Dear father of mine, you used to teach with your gaze You used to feel unease for arrogance may lead me to failure Yes, you were well aware that a man has to overcome all of life You wanted me to become a man of kind heart and good will Mirages, mirages, mirages, amidst mirages is there, dear father of mine Mirages, mirages, mirages, amidst mirages is there, dear father of mine Whilst watching the far horizon You come, flying, unto my mind By wind, you send me your love, whispering Whilst watching the far horizon You come, flying, unto my mind By wind, you send me your love, whispering You used to remind me often with your deeds You used to say to me to love this chaotic world You used to show us how to cherish the mothers You were assaying to make us seethe bliss is beside us You did have the valiance to rush into fiery fires You made companions to perceive the path of trust Staying true to your espousal, you learned the true love Holding your child, you tasted elation after all the griefs Mirages, mirages, mirages, amidst mirages is there, dear father of mine Mirages, mirages, mirages, amidst mirages is there, dear father of mine I have rejoiced the bliss of living in my lifetime I am grateful to be blessed with a long life Lingering on my children, as the time to depart draws nigh My heart is troubled for those who stay to live in this world I, your father, albeit departed to heaven, will keep loving you, my children Shall ye spend the Living bliss to the fullest of love I, your father, albeit departed to heaven, will keep loving you, my children Shall ye spend the Living bliss to the fullest of love I, your father, albeit departed to heaven, will keep loving you, my children May ye spend the Living bliss to the fullest of truth I, your father, albeit departed to heaven, will keep loving you, my children May ye spend the Living bliss to the fullest of love I will always be grateful for the boundless Living bliss Let us meet again in the supreme blessing in our next life

From our Bible Dictionary: The Amalekites were "An Arab tribe that lived in the desert of Paran between the Arabah and the Mediterranean and at one time seem to have ranged as far north as Mount Ephraim (Judg. 5:14; 12:15). The Amalekites were at constant war with the Hebrews from the time of Moses (Ex. 17:8, etc.) till their power was broken by Saul and David (1 Sam. 15; 27:8; 30; 2 Sam. 8:12), and their last remnant was destroyed by the Simeonites (1 Chr. 4:43)." Deuteronomy 25:17-19 -> "17 ¶ Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, when ye were come forth out of Egypt; 18 How he met thee by the way, and smote the hindmost of thee, even all that were feeble behind thee, when thou wast faint and weary; and he feared not God. 19 Therefore it shall be, when the Lord thy God hath given thee rest from all thine enemies round about, in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it, that thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; thou shalt not forget it." The Amalekites were apparently just as evil as the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. You might want to review the Wikipedia article on this tribe. They were rather like Hamas and that ilk. And this didn't happen in a vacuum. I seem to recall a story in which God sent a flood to destroy all of humanity except for the ones who boarded Noah's Ark. Those dying in the flood included men, women, and children, as well as animals. When you consider what will be going on during the tribulation leading up to the Lord's Second Advent, with all the natural disasters attendant upon many people (see the Book of Revelation), how many men, women, and children will perish then? I remember that something like a quarter million people were killed in the tsunami of 2004. Some have called the earthquake that spawned that tsunami an "act of God." Jesus coming to softly proclaim the everlasting gospel does not contradict the distressing events in the Old Testament.

Finally found it! Thanks! It took me awhile, though. Sometimes the church website search facility is not very helpful. What Pres. Snow said is not what I would call "doctrine" however. I still feel that the idea of Mormons getting their own planet is a caricature.

And so could I. But while I can concede there might be a chance for someone in the Terrestrial kingdom to advance to the Celestial, they could not ever reach the highest level of the Celestial. This is because that level requires eternal marriage, and having not been sealed to a spouse by the Holy Spirit of Promise before the resurrection, and as Jesus said, there is no marriage in the resurrection, so they cannot be exalted. This refers to Sons of Perdition, and in this case I think you are definitely wrong. They cannot repent. Here we're talking about those who sinned not in ignorance, but in knowledge The Lord says of them: Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment. [D&C 76:44] This makes it sound quite final.

You, me, and our Bible Dictionary know what ministering means here. Neither you, me, nor our Bible Dictionary know what ministering means there. Again we come to the limitations of the English language. By the time one inherits a kingdom of glory, one has a perfect resurrected body, a body that is designed for the kingdom one has inherited (see 1 Cor 15:40-42) and one is well past repentance. Repentance is for those still living in faith. Once one is no longer separated from one's pre-existence memories, and has been resurrected, one is living in knowledge. One has nothing further to repent of. D&C 76 gives an incredibly detailed layout of the three degrees of glory, and there is not one indicator there, or anywhere else in scripture that one can promote from a lower kingdom of glory to a higher one. This is particularly true of the Telestial Kingdom. In D&C 76:112 it says of them: 112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. I emphasize the word "cannot." It doesn't say "they may not come," it says "they cannot come." They are not merely forbidden, they are unable. The sentence terminates with finality: "worlds without end." That seals the deal. There is no advancement. These are those who rejected the atonement of Christ, and suffered in their own resurrected bodies the punishment that Christ suffered. How can they then be promoted to the kingdom that Christ ministers to? You are a compassionate man. And you want for the sky to be limit for all of God's children. So do I, actually. No child left behind and all that. And there are many others who agree with you, including past general authorities, who were of a similar opinion. But none of them presented their hope of a universal exaltation as doctrine. I have read the scriptures, and they do not support that hope. In the 2023 General Conference, President Oaks said: "We know from modern revelation that 'all kingdoms have a law given' and that the kingdom of glory we receive in the Final Judgment is determined by the laws we choose to follow in our mortal journey. Under that loving plan, there are multiple kingdoms—many mansions—so that all of God’s children will inherit a kingdom of glory whose laws they can comfortably 'abide.'" [Kingdoms of Glory] <- that's a link to the talk... President Oaks says "That word abide, so common in the scriptures, means a secure placement."

I think I can say that the only persons God has given up on are the Sons of Perdition. He makes it very clear that they are done for. Ultimately, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. And even the inhabitants of the Telestial Kingdom will enjoy a glory that we in mortality cannot comprehend; they will be ministered to by the Holy Ghost; and they will be servants of the most high.

It depends upon context. English is one of the world's richest languages, vocabulary-wise, but it doesn't always have different words for different connotations. For example, Greek has two words for love. We only have one. It has two words for punishment. We only have one. So we (and by extension God as well) have to make due with context. And sometimes we have to use a cop-out called a "term of art," by which we use a word in a restrictive sense rather than a universal sense. This is a word or phrase that has a precise, specialized meaning within a particular field or profession. For example, in legislation in order to avoid repetition of a list of items, the list itself may use a defined "term of art" to include only a particular set of items, with only those items in the list being applicable. In the Revised Code of Washington (state), in the Title dealing with Fish and Wildlife, Section 77.08.030 creates a term of art called "Big game". The section lists the 11 species that are covered in the F&W law as "big game." Raccoons are not included in the list, so are not "big game." I point this out because in D&C 19 the Lord explains "eternal" and/or "endless" as terms of art, as follows: 6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. 10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore— 11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment. 12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment. Alma was getting a "taste" of the eternal/God's punishment that could be meted out to him if he did not repent. But sometimes "eternal" does mean without end. In D&C 76:112 concerning those who obtain the Telestial Kingdom: And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. The term "worlds without end" seems to mean "eternal" in the sense of never ending. Above my pay grade as well. I only know what the scriptures and revelation say. The only persons you can forgive are those who have done wrong to you, or trespassed against you (as stated in the Lord's Prayer).

LOL! Thank you! I just finished reading that chapter online, and it was very enlightening. But the bit you quoted isn't there. I tried to track down the print version of the manual here at the house, but we don't have it. I'm not saying that your quote is spurious -- I think that they must have left that part out in the online version. I was a convert at age 14 (the only one in my family at the time - my brother joined four years later), and attended church for only 6 months before we moved across the country, where I didn't know where church was. It wasn't until we moved again after 2 1/2 years, this time to England, that I started attending again. So I missed out entirely on Primary, and most of the youth program, what was called Mutual Improvement Association (MIA). There was much I didn't hear!

You say you understand this, but if you think Moses 1:39 overcomes the rest of scripture, you are definitely not thinking straight. How can you imagine that everyone will eventually be exalted, no matter what they did? That sounds exactly like what Lucifer told Father, that if He let Lucifer do the job, he would get everyone back, and none would be lost. Because Lucifer would send them to earth, take away their agency, and force them to obey at all times, with no need for a Savior. This is what God told Moses: 1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor. 3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down; [Moses 4:1-3] Doctrine and Covenants 76 spends 119 verses describing the degrees of glory, and what it takes to get into each degree. Why bother, if both the Telestial and Terrestrial glories will eventually be empty, with all their denizens moving to the Celestial? It sounds as if you have been studying the Book of Nehor. Not the one here calling himself The Nehor, but the actual Nehor, who during the first year of Alma as the chief judge of the Nephites, was brought before Alma for murder. He had been teaching exactly what you have taught here. Alma 1:2-15 tells the story, but here's the pertinent verse: 4 And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life. This is false doctrine. The Father's mission is indeed to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. And all will receive immortality through the grace of Christ. But some will refuse to be redeemed by the blood of Christ (D&C 76:82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus). These will therefore suffer for their own sins and obtain the glory of the Telestial. Some will be redeemed by faith and repentance through the blood of the Lamb, but having not been valiant in the testimony of Jesus, will obtain the glory of the Terrestrial (D&C 76:79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God). And some, having been valiant in the testimony of Jesus, will obtain the glory of the Celestial. How can someone in the Telestial Kingdom, who refused to be redeemed by the blood of Christ, be raised to the Terrestrial Kingdom, with those who accepted that redemption?

The potential is not still there. In D&C 76:28-38 it is made very clear. One cannot change one's mind about it. One can never be trusted ever again. 33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity; 34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come

I wanted to quickly address something else about this. The thing is, we find ourselves sometimes handicapped by the otherwise useful language we use day to day. Consider Matthew 25:46... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. What is rendered here as "punishment" in English covers a lot of ground, but the original koine Greek has two words for the concept, one of which might be felt to be far less harsh. The Greek word Matthew doesn't use here is τιμωρία (timōria). It means retributive, vindicatory punishment. Punishment whose purpose is to satisfy the grievance or honor of the one wronged. The benefit flows to the punisher. The word Matthew does use is κόλασις (kolasis). It means corrective, disciplinary punishment. Punishment whose purpose is the improvement, reform, or correction of the one being punished. The benefit flows to the recipient. As I see it, for what it's worth, kolasis seems to correspond more closely to the Lord's intent -- even if the punishment is still something not to be desired.

No, but in desperation I used them at the last. What the heck were you using for search terms? Or maybe I was using Bing and Google works better? You wouldn't mind telling me where you found this? JoD perhaps? I'd like to read the entire piece this comes from. Since I'm clearly incapable of creating a usable Google search on the matter. And I do thank you for showing this to me -- I find this passage profound and hopeful. Mainly because I have thought about what those of us who are to be exalted might be doing before we reach that level. Or even what those of us who are not counted among those to be exalted, but inherit the Terrestrial kingdom might be doing for their work. When I, as an amateur astrophysicist, look upon what is going on in the universe, I wonder if Father's more advanced children are out there guiding the expansion of the universe, shepherding the stars along their paths, or ensuring that nebulas are coalescing in their proper form so as to form earths upon which other of our Father's children may dwell during their mortal probations. As written in the Book of Moses 1:33-39: 33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. 34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many. 35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them. 37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine. 38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words. 39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

You don't think it does? Maybe it doesn't explain anything to you, as a unique individual. But could a mathematical definition do so? Any ideas on that? Sometimes I write a lot of words trying to explain things. I was trying to keep the infinite infinite, but oh, well. We had a skeptic come on board MDDB once upon a time who threw out a bunch of questions that seemed designed to trip up theists. One of those questions was "Can God count to infinity instantaneously?" I answered "God can't count to infinity because infinity can't be reached. Even by God." I know you know what a parable is. I don't know if I have a favorite parable, but one I like is the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard. The owner of the vineyard hires workers at various points in the day, promising each of them 1 denarius for pay. At the end, he queued up the later workers ahead of the earlier workers, but when the earlier ones received a denarius for their short duration of labor, the ones who worked all day were expecting more than one denarius. But they all got the same pay, and of course the earlier workers complained. The vineyard owner told them that one denarius is what he contracted with them to receive for the day, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what belongs to you and go; I choose to give to this last the same as I give to you. Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or are you envious because I am generous?’ There are plenty of interpretations of this parable out there. I've even heard it used to justify being anti-labor union. But I feel that the best way to use it in LDS-land is say that whether you were born in the Church and worked in it all your life, or you were baptized at the end of a long life one hour before you died, you would inherit the same reward befitting your valiance in the testimony of Jesus. Or, for that matter, even if you never so much as heard of Jesus Christ until you were in the Spirit World and were one of the last ones reached by the missionaries there, and were baptized by proxy one hour before the end of the Millennium. Ultimately, it's a lot of words that can be meaningless to one person, and profoundly meaningful to another. If you thought my pseudo-mathematical analogy meaningless, so it goes. As for the infinite atonement, we are ill-equipped to understand it at the best of times. Maybe God should have consulted with you for the best way to express it, sans the word "infinite." As for myself, I feel the use of the word "infinite" is appropriate, given the majesty and importance of the Atonement. Does it bother you that God tries to scare you? Why don't you read D&C 19 over again, and tell me if the suffering that Christ describes, that made even HIM want to shrink away from, is something that you should consider lightly? Should you not be scared of it? 15 Therefore I command you to repent — repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore — how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not. 16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; 17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; 18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit — and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink As you know, this is the same section in which the Lord reveals that "Eternal" and "Endless" punishment doesn't mean it doesn't end, but that it is the punishment that He, as The Eternal or The Endless, must mete out absent repentance. Jesus suffered the same punishment that the unrepentant will have to suffer ("they must suffer even as I"), and it didn't last forever for Him, nor will it for them. But you better believe "your sufferings [will] be sore." Is that not to be avoided? Is it perhaps worth fearing? Or of being scared of? I'd say so, and the warning and the 'scare word' is not at all unjustified. In my humble opinion. Your mileage may differ. But despite the Lord being careful to say that the suffering will not be without end, in one important way the consequences of the suffering will definitely never end. The consequence is that they will have reached the end of their eternal progression. And that end will never end. I know that some have theorized that eventually even those inheriting the telestial kingdom will be able to advance to the terrestrial, and even to the celestial. I believe they are not thinking straight.

He did? Thank you. Snow is well-known for "As Man Now Is, God Once Was; As Now God Is, Man May Be." However, an online search for quotations, or even discussions about quotations regarding "planetary construction and ruling over them" yields nothing. Which seems odd to me, since it seems to me that anti-LDS sites would be happy to showcase such, if they were available. But I can't find any. Perhaps in the Journal of Discourses? Do you have any advice for locating this kind of thing from him? As to "moving the goal posts," what goal posts?

Not quite. There are two aspects of the Atonement: resurrection and justification/sanctification. Resurrection applies to all, both repentant and unrepentant (1 Corinthians 15:22 -> "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."). But jusitification/sanctification applies only to the repentant. I have to disagree with you as to the spirits who remained bodiless (i.e. they who rebelled against Father in preferring Lucifer over Jesus). They are NOT covered by the Atonement, and there is no forgiveness for them, worlds without end. This is because they sinned against knowledge, as if they denied the sun at noonday. But I certainly agree with your language as to the extent of the Atonement.

I don't think the term "infinite" in respect of the Atonement of Jesus Christ can be related to the mathematical term "infinite." Mathematically, infinity is very interesting (and incomprehensible). But the mathematicians stab at it, like in the song "Hotel California, where "They stab it with their steely knives, But they just can't kill the beast." Infinity nearly drove mathematician Georg Cantor insane. He managed to prove some very provocative things about infinity, including that the while the sets of real and natural numbers are both infinite, nevertheless real numbers are more numerous than the natural numbers. But the infinity of Christ's Atonement has nothing to do with mathematical infinity, though I can use it as a teaching tool regarding how it can cover sins infinitely. In my 60 years as a member I have sought to understand the Atonement of Christ. I'm sure I will never reach full understanding in this life. But trying to explain what I feel I do understand takes up a lot of verbiage, and if I were to fully develop the topic here, it would be just a wall of text, and who would actually read it? I've written about this extensively and posted it on my personal website here: The Mathematics of the Atonement of Jesus Christ - Reflections upon Christ's Atonement The Roles of Justice, Sacrifice and Mercy in the Atonement of Christ - Further reflections upon Christ's Atonement But here's a quick pseudo-mathematical explanation. Amulek taught: "For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, all are hardened; yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made. For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice." [Alma 34:9-10 (emphasis added)] There's a special import attached to the word eternal here. In Doctrine and Covenants section 19 the Lord gives a definition of eternal, one which applies especially to Himself and His works. See where the Lord uses the word eternal in the sense that pertains to Himself, in verse 11: "Eternal punishment is God’s punishment." So when it is written in Alma that "it must be an ... eternal sacrifice", we can replace eternal with God's. In other words, the great and last sacrifice must be the sacrifice of a God. And so Christ stands in our place to receive the punishment that we would have received without His intervention and without our repentance. While Christ's Atonement applies to every repentant soul who has or will ever live, each unrepentant soul must atone for his own sins, as stated in D&C 19: 16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; 17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; Christ's Atonement is capable of applying to as many souls as Christ wishes it to apply. Because there is no sin in him, his sacrifice is infinite. And no matter how large the number of those who have sinned may be, his single, infinite sacrifice is enough for all who have faith in him, repent, and sin no more. Mathematically, this might be expressed in this fashion: Because any amount of sin, whether one single act or a lifetime of wickedness, puts you irretrievably into the status of sinner, the number 1 may be used to quantify your sin. Because the suffering that you must endure to atone for yourself is the same for all quantities of sin, the number 1 may be used to quantify your suffering. When you divide your sin into your suffering, as in the mathematical operation of division, the formula looks like: 1 ÷ 1 = 1 In other words, your suffering covers your sin, and you are "at one". Therefore, your personal atonement covers you but no-one else. On the other hand, the amount of sin that is imputed to the Christ during his mortal lifetime was 0. But the suffering that the Christ endured in the act of atonement has the value of 1. When you divide the Christ's sin into Christ's suffering, the mathematical formula could look like: 1 ÷ 0 = Infinity In arithmetic, dividing any quantity by 0 yields a result typically called "undefined", because there is no way for nothing to divide into anything. But if one were to try to divide progressively smaller and smaller values into 1, the result gets mathematically larger and larger. Since one can never progressively reach the calculated value of infinity by making the divisor progressively smaller and smaller, you will never reach the end of the attempt. But in our imagination, we must infer that if we could take it far enough, effectively to zero, then the result would be infinity. Since this is mathematically meaningless, our example breaks down under close scrutiny. But because we not dealing with mathematics, strictly speaking, the example suffices to show what it means to have an infinite atonement. It means that Christ's atonement is sufficient to cover ALL sinners who will repent, regardless of how many that is. And because Christ's suffering was something he could have ended at any time he wished to, without personal impact upon his own status, he demonstrated love beyond measure, both for the Father's plan and for his brothers and sisters. For that he deserves all glory for ever and ever.