Notatbm

Agreed… just saying the church doesn’t explicitly teach the missionaries NOT to do it except for the baptism part.. baseball baptisms were a messy gift that keeps on giving.

Missionaries are not instructed to subvert parents authority. BUT by not mandating parent approval prior to discussions the church takes away that parent’s choice as to whether their child receives religious lessons from missionaries. By taking that choice away…. That subverts the parent’s ability to object until they find out the missionaries are trying to convince their kiddo to join their church. “carefully worded denials” comes to mind

I think California boy’s point is that Mormon missionaries and other Mormons engage in proselytizing to kids without parental permission. You keep emphasizing no baptism without parental consent. Two different things. both of those things missionaries and other members have no business doing unless they have parental permission. Iirc, church policy only says minors can’t be baptized without parental permission. Teaching the discussions without parental permission?? Have at it it seems.

I think the main issue with this is the contradiction. The trademark deal with bad Mormon the church says that phrase will confuse people. Jordan gets in front of a camera and says no one would be confused by “bad Mormon.” maybe the church lied in its filing about what it actually believes and was just trying to shut down a very public figure? Even though no one would be confused. Wouldn’t be the first time church leaders lied and had others carry their water for them… as directed

This is interesting. I watched Jordan’s interview and caught his comment re bad Mormon. I thought it was a dumb thing to say. This can’t help the church’s case i imagine: https://www.abc4.com/news/wasatch-front/new-filing-mormon-stories-lawsuit-rhoslc-lds-church/amp/

If one applies it to the use of meth or bath salts…. Perfect. Mj, opiates etc not so much. prescriptions?? I can’t recall what my wife was given but I had to take a leave of absence from work as it made her certifiably … out there

This commercial was a good one

When did I say this? Doesnt sound like anything I would have said… mebbe I was hitting the crack pipe rhst day.

I don’t think Nemo would have a problem speaking at his parent’s funeral (s) when the time comes. Precedence has already been set in Utah where a gang member of the Tongan crip gang spoke at a funeral of another Tongan crip gang member at an lds church. The speaker was wearing gang -specific identifying colors, a balaclava and was drinking a beer while he gave the talk. Nemo has nothing to worry about.

Apparently it’s a thing to do baptism pics in front of the temple. Kids in white clothing clutching a bom. this is just one of a dozen or so I found with one google search: https://gilmorestudios.com/gilbert-arizona-temple-lds-baptism-photographer/

Yes… he knows who butters his bread. It would be the end of him if he admitted it. He said the dominant narrative is not true… who is the one teaching the dominant narrative??? The church and by extension the q15 besides in the quote you provided look at what he said: “Similarly, we now have assimilated seer stones into the translation story. A picture of a seer stone now appears in the Church History Museum display. That would not have happened even five years ago. The list goes on and on.” why would that bot have happened five years ago??? The church had the seer stone the whole time and they knew it. It is because the part of the dominant narrative they were teaching our kids (and me) didn’t include that even though they knew it. They lied.

Perhaps to you and me the detachment would be reasonable… can you think of any general authority back then (1980s) allowing thst as an excuse to distance oneself from the church? I can’t and I knew most the q12 back then personally. the pov they were exposed to is literally the apostles. At the time my family entertained many of them at the house… on numerous occasions. In fact Packer was a regular and he and my father got along famously. Here’s a quote of what the guys mindset is in testimonies and missionaries: “It is not unusual to have a missionary say, “How can I bear testimony until I get one? How can I testify that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, and that the gospel is true? If I do not have such a testimony, would that not be dishonest?” Oh, if I could teach you this one principle. A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it! Somewhere in your quest for spiritual knowledge, there is that “leap of faith,” as the philosophers call it. It is the moment when you have gone to the edge of the light and stepped into the darkness to discover that the way is lighted ahead for just a footstep or two. “The spirit of man,” as the scripture says, indeed “is the candle of the Lord.”” Boyd k Packer https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teaching-seminary-preservice-readings-religion-370-471-and-475/the-candle-of-the-lord?lang=eng in context this can be explained away, but Mormonism is a religion of one-liners and this one is still around. Remember this is my parents buddy and his pov. how bout the one about coming home with honor or in a pine box? Yep that one got used on me as well. I don’t recall who said it, but that one still is being tossed around as well. my point is the church and its leaders created this culture. I agree that was the theory. Oddly enough when I presented this lack of testimony and called the behavior lying, my bishop told me… he was talking about the consequences with lds girls after not going on a mission. Oh man I still can’t believe this. “ you think you have integrity by not bearing your testimony thinking it’s a lie, but I can tell tell you that by not going you will never be considered by any good lds girl to have any integrity at all. In fact you will just be looked at as another faithless apostate who isn’t worth the time and you will get the wife you deserve.” Im guessing he was saying I’d marry a non Mormon hooker or something. He was right about one thing though.. I am an apostate as it relates to the Mormon church but I can sleep well knowing I didn’t trick anyone into joining the church. the wife on the other hand… boy did I marry up. I have to add. Looks like we still have church leaders putting the verbal beat down on kids https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZP8KCnpq8/

Ur right I should have put quotes around the part he did say… I added the lies part in keeping with the ending of some of my other bullet points. Here’s the quote from his fireside: "I think that for the Church to remain strong, it has to reconstruct its narrative. The dominant narrative is not true; it can't be sustained. The Church has to absorb all this new information or it will be on very shaky grounds and that's what it is trying to do and it will be a strain for a lot of people, older people especially. But I think it has to change." [1] I know he walked back the comment, but I’m inclined to believe something a guy like him says when they say something the first time. It’s more likely what they really think. this dominant narrative being not true thing reminds me of the mitt Romney talk at byu… “It is an honor to be here today and to address you. It seems like only a few years ago that I sat where you are sitting—actually, it was in the Wilkinson Center. Things were different then: the Beatles were the only boy band, Bell Telephone was the only telephone company in the country, BYU cafeteria food was all they served in the Cougareat, and Emma was Joseph Smith’s only wife.” https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/mitt-romney/life-lessons-front/

I have not read the book, but I just ordered it from Amazon... that said, I'll share why I left for anyone who cares: BIC and raised in household of father who was in bishopric and stake presidency and ultimately THE stake pres by the time i graduated HS. I never wanted to go on a mission. It just never appealed to me. May have been because one of my siblings was very free about sharing how much he hated his mission. He went in the late '70s and I recently (within 90 days) have found out he has now left the church along with the rest of his family Parents, bishop, seminary teacher, priesthood leaders made full court press on me to compel me to serve a mission. This started the week after I joined the military while a senior in high school. This whole thing devolved into public call outs in both seminary, priesthood and MIA. Also my bishop engaged in name calling over the whole episode. Family put serious pressure on me,,, yelling, screaming, throwing things etc. Six months of pure hell before I went to bootcamp. I was openly called the worst thing that ever happened to our family and what a disappointment I was and always would be for not going on a mission we have an extended family member who is extremely popular and was by all accounts a stellar missionary in his youth. He was much older than me. His reputation was used against me and how i definitely didnt want to disappoint him. He was our family version of Paul H Dunn ...more later on this guy I even said I didnt have a testimony and didnt want to lie to investigators. Family and bishop didnt care and said well just go lie anyway. We know its the truth and it doesnt matter what you think.... go on your mission or else. We will pay for your college, a car etc if you go... bla bla bla I didn't go on a mission and made a career out of the military. I stayed active, married in the temple and all that good stuff. Stayed active until my early fifties. This early experience at 18 taught me.... 1- my church leaders advocated lying in order to convert people. Sure they believed it all to be true, but they wanted me so testify on a mission as to the truthfulness of the gospel...even if I didnt believe it. I was actually suprised by this push to go anyway and just regurgitate a fake testimony and 2- question everything because if my leaders will openly tell me to lie about a testimony, what else do they approve of lying about? or what will they lie about in order to keep people in-line? And moving on: I also learned all these years later that the stud missionary guy the whole family adored actually had sex with a couple of women on his mission. He got caught, but they didnt send him home and he got no discipline. It helps to have GA friends apparently.... I mean I guess thats the favor that got pulled. My family knows tons of them. This happened before I was born and the whole family knew, but kept it a secret. They used his stellar "example" to try and leverage me into going on a mission because I wouldn't want to disappoint him. He ended up being excommunicated near the end of his life lol... I learned that the Sealer who sealed my wife and I had previously been involved in a sexual tryst close in proximity to our marriage. So.... he wasn't worthy to be there in the temple doing that... more lies... No discernment on the part of the temple presidency. I understand the first presidency approves sealers??? If true, no discernment there either.... lies lies lies I was active in the scouting program and frankly I was stunned by the award fraud that went on there in multiple wards and stakes. It pretrty much seemed to be the thing to do. Much easier than enforcing standards. Lies Lies Lies Gospel Topics Essays come out. Doing a dive there it is obvious the church lied about its history. That pretty much got me. Much of what I was taught growing up and what I was teaching out of manuals at church turned out to be shades of truth...., but not really true. Richard Bushman said it perfectly. The dominant narrative of church history wasnt true. Lots of lies about church history SEC scandal pops up... Reading the SEC decision was the final straw.... more lies and deception. Bottom line for me. The church leaders have lied, will lie, and they encouraged me to lie to convert investigators and the discerment they say they have is fake. End of story. Now My wife, me and nearly all our kids are out. The end.

Thanks.. I have not read the ms response yet. You are right.. we will see