How to answer/address a comment made by my Daughter-in-law

[Maestrophil]

20 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I was born and raised in California, so did not have much liking for Utah culture.  I always considered Utah backward and stuffy, and have generally agreed with those who argued that the real Church can only be found outside Utah.  Back in the 80s when I was living in Utah for a few years before returning to California, a friend and I visited an unfamiliar LDS ward on fast Sunday.  I chuckled when one female member of that ward got up and asked those of us not from Utah not to allow the Utah members to drive them out of the Church -- a very perceptive comment.  We need to fully respect cultural differences.  They are real.

She is wrong, of course.  There is nothing for her to regret.  For most of human history there was no marriage ceremony.  A man would pay the bride-price to the father and the two would begin living together.  They have the strongest pair-bond of all:  Love.  It is several years too late to start worrying about modern rules.  The horse got out of the barn years ago.

However, a person can be a member in good standing without ever going to a temple or even paying tithing.  These are actually only options.  We ought to be happy just to see our children go to Church each Sunday, where they will have a chance to hear the Gospel preached.

That is a great insight - thank you.

[Maestrophil]

10 minutes ago, pogi said:

Lets say they grew up in the church, and were baptized members (which sounds like is the case we are talking about).  Is repentance needed?  If not, why not?

My guess is that different bishops would approach this scenario very differently. 

Exactly my question(s)... 🙂  I found myself wnating to say somethign to my DIL like, "do you think the goal of getting a TR interview is to make you feel bad?"  and then discuss how many blessings could come into their marriage from a temple union - but I hesitated, because a part of me still through she should  feel bad about that choice.  

Is feeling bad just to lead us to change?  If we change circumstantially, such as getting married, and not from regeret or guilt, is that still repentance?  hmmm...

[mfbukowski]

40 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Read the Miracle of Forgiveness.  Then come back and talk to me.  Oh and the biannual interrogation for a temple recommend, and annual yout interviews, and the need to confess certain "grievous" sins.  As for what I care or don't care about you really don't know.  Nor do you know my intentions. You don't know me at all, I have been on this board much longer than you and transitioned through a number of phases in my life.  I was a full blown believer and apologist for most of my adult life. Been on both sides.  Have you?

 

 Sin is a man made concept anyway and is used by religion to control people.  And the LDS Church does that very well.  Your comment reflects.  But your eyes are not yet open so I actually feel bad for you.

Just fyi, Miracle of Forgiveness is harsh and virtually never recommended today, in my experience, and the recommend process you went through has largely changed, in my experience, and hope that holds for the church.

We had one young sister who nearly left the church after a bishop asked about masturbation.

Not cool.

Yet bishops are human and make mistakes like everyone else

They were raised in the past, and carry those events forward into the future.

We all need to be adult "converts" and forget childish ways.

[mfbukowski]

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

Lets say they grew up in the church, and were baptized members (which sounds like is the case we are talking about).  Is repentance needed?  If not, why not?

My guess is that different bishops would approach this scenario very differently. 

Probably other bishops did not then barely survive the '60's, and have no understanding of being a youth a "little" out of control, and without guidance.

Regardless of whether or not more repentance is required, it is up to the person, the bishop and God, not an internet board.

Yes, thank God there are bishops who understand that, and yes there are others who don't.

[bOObOO]

13 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

Exactly my question(s)... 🙂  I found myself wnating to say somethign to my DIL like, "do you think the goal of getting a TR interview is to make you feel bad?"  and then discuss how many blessings could come into their marriage from a temple union - but I hesitated, because a part of me still through she should  feel bad about that choice.  

Is feeling bad just to lead us to change?  If we change circumstantially, such as getting married, and not from regeret or guilt, is that still repentance?  hmmm...

All we need to do is the right thing, and the whole purpose of repentance is to stop doing something which is wrong so that instead we can do the right thing. 

Your DIL once did something which was wrong, which she ought not to have done, but now she is doing the right thing.  She started doing the right thing when she married your son.  Now there is no need for her to repent for what she did which was wrong.

She already has repented (turned away) from doing the wrong thing in that regard when she started to do the right thing instead..  Now we just need to stop talking about what she did which was wrong and instead recognize that she has done the right thing.

[Teancum]

40 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Just fyi, Miracle of Forgiveness is harsh and virtually never recommended today, in my experience, and the recommend process you went through has largely changed, in my experience, and hope that holds for the church.

We had one young sister who nearly left the church after a bishop asked about masturbation.

Not cool.

Yet bishops are human and make mistakes like everyone else

They were raised in the past, and carry those events forward into the future.

We all need to be adult "converts" and forget childish ways.

There are still far to many invasive interview questions.  My youngest daughter went through a very unseemly interview with her college bishop when she and her RM boyfriend got a bit to frisky even to the point of her being asked if she had been molested as a child.  What he heck.  Had I known about this at the time ( I was still active then but more nuanced) I would have had some words with this student ward bishop.  This was one of a number of things that led to her leaving the church.  Bishops need more training.

[2BizE]

I would not address it.  They are adults and can figure it out…that is how we learn.

[pogi]

54 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

All we need to do is the right thing, and the whole purpose of repentance is to stop doing something which is wrong so that instead we can do the right thing. 

Your DIL once did something which was wrong, which she ought not to have done, but now she is doing the right thing.  She started doing the right thing when she married your son.  Now there is no need for her to repent for what she did which was wrong.

She already has repented (turned away) from doing the wrong thing in that regard when she started to do the right thing instead..  Now we just need to stop talking about what she did which was wrong and instead recognize that she has done the right thing.

Do you think that being penitent and asking forgiveness is not required for repentance?

 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Maestrophil said:

.........................

Is feeling bad just to lead us to change?  If we change circumstantially, such as getting married, and not from regeret or guilt, is that still repentance?  hmmm...

Exactly.  Brilliant observation.

[Maestrophil]

30 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Exactly.  Brilliant observation.

Just sorry my spelling was so poor on that post!!  😛

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Maestrophil said:

Is feeling bad just to lead us to change?  If we change circumstantially, such as getting married, and not from regeret or guilt, is that still repentance?  hmmm...

Yes. You stop doing the behavior that makes you feel bad.

You are saved by grace after all you can ACTUALLY do.

All you can do for what is past, in this case is change the situation by getting married.  Today the percentage of newly marrieds who are not virgins must be very high.

But that is not a free pass to sin.

Time machines are not necessary.

You can't change the past, and mutual restitution has been made by marrying each other. Seems to me to be all one can do.

Self flagellation not required 

[Fether]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Read the Miracle of Forgiveness.  Then come back and talk to me.  Oh and the biannual interrogation for a temple recommend, and annual yout interviews, and the need to confess certain "grievous" sins. 

The burden of proof is on the accuser. You have yet to provide any. Please show me where shame is systematically built into the church. All your examples are either “go look it up” or just plain anecdotal.

Please help me open my eyes. Show me where the church is encouraging shame and I would love to follow you out of the church.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Fether

[Fether]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

So we should carry guilt for things we had no idea were wrong?

In today's world outside of religious beliefs, sexual "sins" don't exist, except  for rape.  People kill babies not knowing that is "wrong", except for wacko religionists.

So yes we must know we did wrong, and have repented.

But "carrying guilt" for sins taken away by the atonement is not part of the gospel of Jesus Christ 

I’m happy we agree on this. If this were the case with his son and DIL, I would say it applies.

It seems, however, both had some understanding that it was a sin prior to engaging in it, and neither seem to feel guilt for this. My comment reflected the situation in the OP.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Fether

[Fether]

2 hours ago, Mike Drop said:

That’s a pretty bold statement. Are you saying someone who finds the church later in life needs to feel guilty about the way they lived prior to finding the gospel? If so, only sexual sin or all sin. For instance, cussing, tattoos, drinking, smoking, gambling, etc? 

Nope 👍 not what I’m saying at all. What I’m saying is that someone who grew up in the church and understands the LOC and breaks it is not worthy of the temple. Should they get married, but still hold to the belief that their breaking of the LOC was fine is not ready for the temple. This, from what I read, seems to be the situation. I may be wrong though

[bOObOO]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Do you think that being penitent and asking forgiveness is not required for repentance?

 

If by feeling penitent you mean feeling like we should improve our performance, and if by asking forgiveness you mean pleading with God within the most innermost part of our soul to not hold our past performances against us as we strive to improve our performances... and if by required you mean improving our performances is required to improve our performances otherwise our performances will not improve, then yes, of course we must improve our performances if our performances are ever actually going to improve.

Improving our performances, i.e. our behaviors and actions and attitudes while we strive to be better people than we are, to become as good as we can possibly become, is what all of the hokey pokey is supposed to be all about.  

[Maestrophil]

23 minutes ago, Fether said:

Nope 👍 not what I’m saying at all. What I’m saying is that someone who grew up in the church and understands the LOC and breaks it is not worthy of the temple. Should they get married, but still hold to the belief that their breaking of the LOC was fine is not ready for the temple. This, from what I read, seems to be the situation. I may be wrong though

That is indeed the situation. It almost seems like a "If I had to do it over, I would choose the same thing" type attitude, and I have never equated that with repentance - but I have also been told I am wrong for thinking that since "all our experiences are for our good" so we should not wish anything to be different.

[bOObOO]

36 minutes ago, Fether said:

I’m happy we agree on this. If this were the case with his son and DIL, I would say it applies.

It seems, however, both had some understanding that it was a sin prior to engaging in it, and neither seem to feel guilt for this. My comment reflected the situation in the OP.

The way I see this, if they did not feel guilty about having sexual relations without being married, they would have felt totally comfortable staying unmarried while having sexual relations.  The fact that they were later married, because they felt they should be married, tells me they wanted to improve their situation in life, from doing something they weren't totally comfortable with to doing what they felt was the best situation for them to be in. Otherwise they easily could have remained unmarried forever.

[mfbukowski]

45 minutes ago, Fether said:

I’m happy we agree on this. If this were the case with his son and DIL, I would say it applies.

It seems, however, both had some understanding that it was a sin prior to engaging in it, and neither seem to feel guilt for this. My comment reflected the situation in the OP.

So what then is still required for repentance?

What more can they do?

You want them to feel guilt?

You are the bishop. Do you sign the reccomend or not?

[Teancum]

49 minutes ago, Fether said:

The burden of proof is on the accuser. You have yet to provide any. Please show me where shame is systematically built into the church. All your examples are either “go look it up” or just plain anecdotal.

Please help me open my eyes. Show me where the church is encouraging shame and I would love to follow you out of the church.

Not worth my time.

[pogi]

29 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

if by asking forgiveness you mean pleading with God within the most innermost part of our soul to not hold our past performances against us as we strive to improve our performances...

This sounds like an acknowledgment that what they did in this specific situation was wrong.  It sounds an acknowledgement of guilt.  Would you disagree?  If you are suggesting that we need to acknowledge guilt and ask forgiveness, than I agree.  Acknowledgment of guilt and a plea to forgive us for specific sins that we are aware of is required to receive forgiveness.  We also must change performance as you say and have a change of heart - but that is not all that is needed. 

 

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Surprised at your response.

It's none of our business, and maybe it was a good thing.

Remember Eve and her fortunate Fall?  Who knows God's plan for someone else.

 

Why would you be surprised?  The OP asked the same question:  Can someone gain a temple recommend if they are not repentant for past sins. 

I'm surprised that a former bishop would think that the answer to such a question is irrelevant.  Even though Eve's choice was ultimately for good, she still repented of it.  Repentance is a blessing for us, as a change of heart is necessary when working to become like Christ.  Without repentance we can't progress.   

[bOObOO]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

This sounds like an acknowledgment that what they did in this specific situation was wrong.  It sounds an acknowledgement of guilt.  Would you disagree?  If you are suggesting that we need to acknowledge guilt and ask forgiveness, than I agree.  Acknowledgment of guilt and a plea to forgive us for specific sins that we are aware of is required to receive forgiveness.  We also must change performance as you say and have a change of heart - but that is not all that is needed. 

 

Yes I think it does or would count as an acknowledgment of guilt, even if they both said they would make the same choice if given the same situation again. They would feel guilty about it and yet they would still do it, hoping to improve the situation later by getting married. I worship a God who can empathize with them in their situation.  They loved each other, or at least believed they did, and they both wanted to be together and as close as possible.  They understood that they should be married before they could feel totally comfortable with having sexual relations together, and yet they still wanted to be that close to each other even though they were not married.  So they did it while hoping and expecting that they would get married later, which they did, and now it is totally acceptable for them to have sexual relations with each other because they are now married.  And I suppose they are pretty happy about that, because now they can be totally righteous while having sexual relations together.  The discomfort they once felt spiritually about having sex before marriage has pretty much all disappeared, as it should when people can righteously have sexual relations together.  It is a wonderful thing and they have nothing to feel bad about anymore, at least regarding them having sexual relations together. God is great and merciful to all who try to do the right thing.

[The Nehor]

24 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

So what then is still required for repentance?

What more can they do?

You want them to feel guilt?

You are the bishop. Do you sign the reccomend or not?

I wouldn’t care much about the guilt. Emotions are not the important part. I would care whether they identified the action as a sin.

[bOObOO]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I wouldn’t care much about the guilt. Emotions are not the important part. I would care whether they identified the action as a sin.

Would it matter to you if the word sin was not in their vocabulary, and they did not want it to be?  I'm considering removing it from my vocabulary.  Hardly anyone says that anymore in everyday life.  I just consider ways I can make more self improvements.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

Would it matter to you if the word sin was not in their vocabulary, and they did not want it to be?  I'm considering removing it from my vocabulary.  Hardly anyone says that anymore in everyday life.  I just consider ways I can make more self improvements.

I wish you luck with your private version of “Newspeak”. May you remove all the ungood from your vocabulary.