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Everything posted by Teancum

  1. So the caveat is everything the BEGINS to exist has a cause and since God has no beginning God does not need a cause.
  2. If God knows the outcome as you describe what difference does it make? And why put sentient thinking beings through a mortality that for much of humanity is pretty awful? Just send everyone to their reward and be done with it.
  3. Well there are a lot of Calvinists out there. If God knows our future but does not interfere can we change the outcome? If not what is the difference between predestination and foreordination?
  4. Or God in God's omniscience foresaw and knew of the person's future existence and ordained them to some future thing.
  5. Ummm yea I think in Mormonism you do make covenants with the Church. And even the covenants with God and Christ are really considered with the Church because as ELder Kevin Hamilton noted(See my thread on his talk) Jesus and his Church (meaning The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) are inseparable.
  6. I see the Hafen reference is to a book not an article so I was in error to state I had read it.
  7. There could be many analogies. So I guess this one works. And the points above are good options as to why someone may stay in a marriage that is less than fulfilling. And at times that works for a life time. At times it doesn't. Some marriage should come to an end. Both parties might be better off to end a marriage in some cases. But a marriage is not a church that claims to be God's only true and living church. So there is a difference I think. Other faith traditions seem to manage this. As I have noted, I live in an area where they are a lot of Catholics. I have a number of partners who are believing and participating Catholics. Yet they have ideas and beliefs that diverge with their church. And they seem to be able to discuss these things openly and remain in good standing. See above. I suppose these passages can be used as a hammer to drive the point of the nail home that if you are not "fully" in or committed you are somehow less than others who are. Being fully in I guess can vary based on your faith tradition. I have noted many times that it seems pretty clear that The Church of Jesus Christ is a very high demand religion. I think it ranks amongst the highest demand religions that I know of. Maybe. But so what. What if that is the best way someone can make things work for them? What if it is that or exit? I can tell you that for me, were I to go back it would never be in the same sense or to the same level it was before I stopped participating. To much has changed for me. I can't put the genie back in the bottle. I doubt I would want to hold a temple recommend. I would likely not tithe. I may be willing to hold a nominal calling but not one that takes a lot of time. I doubt I could even be literal as far as most if not all the truth claims of the church. I am highly skeptical that the BoM is historical and the BoA seems an invention of Joseph Smith. WIth religion in general I doubt I could ever grasp abe believe in a theistic God and certainly not the God that was once a man god or Mormonism. Were I to go back I just don't see these things changing for me. I would attend in order to have some sort of spiritual connection in my life as well as being part of such a community. I do not know. I am not a therapist. Well I have not explored Kimball's position all that much and if he is promoting that rather than writing about how he makes it work for him and how others may make it work for them if they are in a similar position I think that is not good. I would not do that. Yes. And when I expressed doubts about those but was able to answer the practice ones properly I was given a temple recommend. Twice. I was shocked. Well I am happy that you could accept a PIMO of all out. I understand what the all in would be preferably to you. All I would like to see is if someone is open about their PIMO position and they still want to participate that they are accepted and loved But there should be proper behavior from the person who is PIMO. They should not be strident or proselyte their positions. Though it would be nice if they could discuss their ideas respectfully in an open setting and I think this is still tough. I have read the Hafen article in the past. I will take a look again. I do not recall much of it. Everyone reaches different conclusions that may puzzle those who have an opposite conclusion.
  8. Sure. I am fairly confident that what I said is accurate. You are confident that your beliefs are accurate. As are billions of other believers. Meh. Everyone is doing guess work even those who think they aren't. You think the BoM is true and historical with not one shred of archeological evidence. You disaraged Arminius, a real historical person as less than am imagined "prophet" from the BoM. So yea you are doing total guesswork. You guess that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint is God's chosen path and think you have a metaphysical confirmation of that. So do hundred of millions of others. Yet a handful of humans that believe like you do are supposedly correct and all others have it wrong. You disparaged a man's beliefs and baptism because you believe a being that is powerful enough to create this universe really worries about rituals and some supposed authority to perform them. ALl guesswork. No. You believe there is a God that requires this. Did he tell you this in person? Or did you read it and hear it from those who claim this being told them that? Of course it is the latter.
  9. Navidad I am sure has been baptized. And if there is a god out there my guess is that being will accept that baptism as much as that being would yours. If there is such a being I am fairly confident that being really is not worried much about all these human made rituals.
  10. I have not been insulting at all. And really your entire post is not one that I want to spend time picking apart. I understand the intent of the message. Why do we need a church? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is Jesus's church and you cannot separate the two. The church administers ordinances "required" for salvation and exaltation. And in it the talk, IMO, and based on the accurate quotes I provided, there is a message that one really ought not to oppose and question the church leaders and whether you like it or not, he does equate such actions as opposing and questioning Jesus. You can talk all day long about being able to question and get your own revelation. I listened to this message as an active member for 52 years. I did not say members cannot ask question. The point is that if you have a position that opposes the leaders you really need to adjust your thinking and pray to get a confirmation that they are correct. As for critical thinking, sorry but I think the high demand aspect of the church, the messages repeatedly delivered, the passage in the scriptures that talk about tota devotion and so on, all of these discourage critical thinking about the church and its claims. If that offends you and you think I am insulting I guess you will just have to feel that way. Last of all you accused me of misquoting Kevin Hamilton and I asked you to demonstrate where I did that. Your post failed in that. You don't have to bother. This thread seems to have pretty much worn the topic out and it was what I expected for the believers here.
  11. Thank you and you are welcome. I do not think it would have altered my conclusion about the truth claims of the church but it may have help guide me towards a way to be successfully active without being a full believer. Interestingly in my last two temple recommend interviews I was very candid about my doubt on every question that dealt with belief but I was still obeying the questions related to practice and I was given a temple recommend. I was actually quite shocked As notes I think it could have helped me participate and be happier about it than I was when I was trying to do that without suggestions or guidance. Perhaps I should read the book. Maybe it would prompt me to attend and participate again.
  12. So if something is egregiously wrong one just ignores it because of stewardship? You will likely get fired. But if the company's polices are egregious, illegal etc one should do so anyway.
  13. Well from my standpoint I think a book like this might have been helpful while I tried to navigate the middle way.
  14. I have seen the military comparison quite often. My son is a 17 year Marine so I understand the culture and it is cult like. If you want a religion that is like the military in the chain of command more power to you.
  15. Well you say that but when I read your posts on this thread it does seem like it. Why? What if you are wrong. And Kimball is right? Or Dehlin? Or Teancum? Bad comparison. Religion is not essential for life. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not essential for religion, faith or life. Ok. Great. We agree. See this is where I think you cannot really understand this nor do you really see any good reason to not be a middle was Latter-day Saint or to leave the church. I understand that. I have been there. I am not sure how someone who seems to be where you are at can understand or have much empathy for those in the middle way or who leave. Ummm no. I did not chose to not believe. The evidence led me to the conclusions that would no longer allow me to believe nor pretend to and hold on to my personal integrity. And what if I said there are few circumstances or sufficient grounds to remain a believing Latter-day Saint. I believe the evidence it overwhelming that the church is not what it claims. Yet I would never say what you just said to an active member. Clearly. But many have. I have. Yet in your eyes we are flawed and wrong and even those who want to stay like Kimball you seem to disparage to some extent. Yea ok so what? And if there were similar compelling evidence like access to the gold plates, scientific evidence they were an authentic ancient record and an analysis of the text on the plates that correlate to what is in the Book of Mormon then I would believe again. Works both ways. Your bar is pretty high for this as is mine for reversing my current stance. Sure. Some people are. People are in all sorts of situations where they may be less than fully committed. So what? Should someone in a marriage who is part in and out but maybe wanting it to work abandon the marriage? Is no then why can't Kimball or Reiss remain on their terms? Who are you to judge them and disparage them. You disparage Reiss quite often. But see I did. Leaving it behind and the process behind it was one of the most painful experiences of my life. If I could have made it work I would have. But it would maybe have been like Kimball and you (and many others) demonstrate that is not really welcome. Why is that? I have said before I know many Catholics that participate on their terms and are not fully on board with Catholicism but they don't get a vibe like you and others are demonstrating on this. I presuppose the person has to figure it out for themselves and make their own decision and if they can stay and make it work then great. If not then I hope they have a wonderful life after Mormonism. Thanks for demonstrating my point. I think there are those who have departed that are very objective when talking to someone still in but doubting and trying to work it out. But see I really would not try to force my choice on someone who is considering leaving. I think they are quite candid. It just disagrees with your view. Bully for you. Pat yourself on the back. I did. I don't anymore. Both sides of in and out of the church. I was as devoted as you are now. So I have the perspective of both sides. You don't/ Great! Could you be objective? I don't think you could. Yep. I would like to think I could be impartial and listen and tell them to search and ask from both sides of the issue. And pray if they still believe in prayer and then decide because I cannot presume to recommend a path. I could share my path and why I personally feel better off for where I am now but I would also say not everyone is. I would tell them to council with a bishop sure. A blessing? Maybe. Attend the temple and read scripture. Yes I think I would but I would not recommend they limit it to just that. I do deem it correct. For me. See above for how I would want to approach it. I was not offended. Good discussion. Thanks
  16. Yes that was my experience as well. It is your journey. Ignore the noise from both sides along the way. Best wishes to you.
  17. Ok I asked you what you thought. I did not say I was owed a reason. I don't donate any more though I imagine some of my hundreds of thousands of $ is at work at EPA. The church could run off the interest from EPA. There could be a plan on how much to put to work based on Pogi's plan. It would not draw down the entire funds because nobody would be that stupid. It is not an all or nothing idea.
  18. I think life without such an authoritarian approach and submission to such things is healthier at least for me. As I said it borders on cult like obedience.
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