Teancum

I dunno....comparing the priesthood ban to a bad military order to take a hill that turns out strategically worthless is a stretch. Yes blacks could be baptized but they were restricted from the "blessings" of temple covenants and holding the priesthood. Unless you are arguing that those things really don't mean that much in mortality (because yes I know that the come back is they would have those "blessings" somehow in the afterlife) that seems to be simply brushing it aside. These really do impact salvation. And then there are all the "wonderful" attempts to explain the ban and justify it. And now it is "well never mind, we got it wrong." Wrong for over a hundred years. It doesn't generate much faith in the ability of the LDS leaders to get things right if they can be so wrong on something that is more than a copywrite issue.

You really think one must follow policy even if the top leaders are wrong? Do you really think the comparison to the military is a proper one. And as you note, a member of the military is obligated to disobey illegal orders. Certainly wrong orders may still be legal so yes a member of the military should obey a wrong order. Still I do not like the comparison. Church membership is not the military. The old teaching from I thon Heber J Grant that one will be blessed for following the prophet even if he is wrong, but don't worry, the lord would take a prophet before allowing him to lead us astray. How did that work for the priesthood ban? You admit it was wrong so I guess leader can lead us astray right?

Man you have pretty thin skin. It is simply factually true that the church is only having significant growth in demographics where people are poorer. That has nothing to do with race at all. And you said ignorant not me. So take a hard look in the mirror.

Why? It is factually true.

If you think your world wide activity rate is all hunky dory more power to you. The only one bringing up regions is you.

Whatever happened to @smac97?

Sloppy? Do you have more than one example?

I do not know if you are referring to me. I simply noted my friends experience in Chili and an MP. Feel free to enlighten us on activity rates in other areas.

Fair enough.

Meh. I think he and RFM are pretty bright and knowledgeable about things LDS. I did not expect you or any other LDS apologist to agree. That is quite the stretch of a casual relationship. Is that the criteria of a strong critic now? Interesting take.

So if there is one false revelation how can you trust the others are not false as well?

If this is the case how can it be trusted?

Wow! That is a lot of I do and I do not believe. It is a tough issue to get one's head around and still believe this nonsense was somehow divinely commanded. Ocam's razor seems useful here.

I think this is spot on and I think Dehlin and others have experienced this when they have tried to build a sustainable community of ex and disaffected members. I do not think any have had much success. I could be wrong as I do not follow such groups and where I live there is not a lot of LDS people-active, ex or disaffected so a community is tough to sustain with those low numbers.

A close friend of mine who served as a mission president in one of the Santiago Chile missions focused much of his missionaries time on finding and activating the inactive. Stakes in his mission had many wards that had 1000 members on the list with around 100 members attending. The strength of the wards and stakes were decimated by this and activation seemed a higher purpose than new converts.

I am not sure there is exact data. But the Church has about 17.5 million members of record. Rough estimates put active members at about 30% to 40%. If that is accurate, adding in former members to 60% to 70% inactivity then you have much more in the former inactive camp. I recall Elder Marlin Jensen giving a priesthood leadership training around 2010 to my stake. He said there were 1 million members in the lost members file, meaning they are on the records but they cannot be found. When I was active we periodically would work on the lost member list in our ward to see if we could find address information for the church records. It was hard work with little success.

I am not sure there is exact data. But the Church has about 17.5 million members of record. Rough estimates put active members at about 30% to 40%. If that is accurate, adding in former members to 60% to 70% inactivity then you have much more in the former inactive camp. I recall Elder Marlin Jensen giving a priesthood leadership training around 2010 to my stake. He said there were 1 million members in the lost members file, meaning they are on the records but they cannot be found. When I was active we periodically would work on the lost member list in our ward to see if we could find address information for the church records. It was hard work with little success.

He and Bill Reel can be somewhat strident at times. But I don't think it excessive. But is has been almost a year since I listened to an entire episode.

Who refused to debate RFM.

Well according to @Pyreauxand others who suffer great indignation over the activities of MS or Mormon Discussions it must mean they and us are somehow broken if we support or listen to or interact with such a community because if we had moved on we would not be sucked into such a negative platform as MS or Mormon Discussion. We should just forget about Mormonism and be quiet. This is spite of the fact that most of us devoted our entire lives to the church and most still have a lot of ties to the church. Our friends and family can try to save our benighted souls and such but we apparently have a character flaw by seeking support, community, honest and open transparency about things LDS and so on. The idea is really ludicrous.

I am carious. How many episodes of MS have you watched and listened to?

I looked at the MS website and did not fine and merchandise. Mormon Discussions sales merchandise but non of it Mocks the church.

I am not surprised at all on this. My understand is Michelle Stone, as you noted, took her material down and was basically threatened into silence on the issue and was not given the boot. As for their position, it is total bunk and easily refuted. Bill Reel and RFM did a series on Michelle Stone's stuff and she even may have been on their show. But they destroyed her arguments.

Where did I describe joy at getting under the skin of active members. You mean people here on this board? I guess we need to define what moving on means. I have moved on in some ways, and in other ways I have not. See my additional post. And I really will likely never move on entirely because as I noted in my other post, much of who and what I am is tied to Mormonism. I can't remove that from me anymore that I can change my sex, my last name, or my national citizenship even though I may be very disappointed with America currently. I am not sure what your point is here. Well I have not completely abandoned Mormonism so there is that. So in some ways I have not "left." An invested antagonist? Ok, maybe so but I am not sure what that means. But if posting on this board, giving financial support to two organizations critical of the church and following some social media groups for disaffected members then I guess you are correct. Ok I am game so long as we both keep it polite. I am not sure how this is relevant. Your leader pull in annually as much as Dehlin does with their salary and cushy perks, which I really do not nor ever have begrudged them and I think they should be paid more for what they do. To hire the equivalent would of GAs would likely cost much more. I applaud that but you and I both know that that amount is a pittance compared to the massive assets the church holds. They could and should do much much more IMO. Does MS claim to be The Church of Jesus Christ? Does John Dehlin demand I pay to listen to his podcasts? Does the MS mission statement include in its purpose humanitarian aid? Nope. As for counseling services I do not know that Dehlin does this anymore but it is irrelevant and this is really a big time false equivalency. But when John claims to be the Church of Jesus Christ and requires ten % for access to his best podcasts then you might have a point. Otherwise not so much. Nope. Your tithing does not go to welfare last I checked. Yes tithing does likely go for that. The church has soup kitchens? Where? Well now you really don't know where your money goes because the church does not tell you. And then there is that pesky read the fine print on your donation slip where your designation for say money for FO or humanitarian aid can be used wherever the church wants. And by the way I continued to give to fast offering and humanitarian aid fopr years after not participating till the church but that little qualifier. After that I decided to give to organization that I knew would put the money to work helping to save lives and such. I never said the church is greedy not did I. And I never said that the church does not sped $ on worthy causes at all now did I? That does not negate the fact that the church hoars its wealth in spite of the good it does. A few billion a year for an organization with hundreds of billions is a small amount of its resources to relieve suffering even though the $ amount is large. And I do not imagine my $75 per month for MS is a make ore break thing, I support a number of podcasters and independent media sources that I enjoy. I also give a ton to other organizations that do work to relieve human suffering, This is the case for some charities and for some not so much. But so what. The church still needs about $6 to $7 billion a year just to operate. That is pretty hefty overhead, so yea, you really don't know how much of your donation goes to all that you are thumping your chest about now do you? By the way I support a couple of charities where almost 100% of it goes to relieve human suffering. They are out there if you look for them. Maybe. Maybe not. You don't know because they keep it a secret from you. Ummm no. Some do and some don't. My guess is you don't donate much outside your tithe and other church contributions because that is a pretty hefty sum for most members and does not leave much for most to give to other groups. It didn't for me when I was a full tithe payer. Once again, I never said the church does not do good not did I? I have always said the the FO program is brilliant. I would still give to that if I could be sure that my $ would go to where I want it to. Same for humanitarian aid. But since the church won't be transparent and since it is still increasing its substantial wealth, I decided to give where I know it does the most good. That in a way makes me rather sad. But I have no plans to help make one of the most wealthy organizations in the world richer. Bill Gates plans to give all his $ away before he dies. He does far more than the church to relieve suffering than the church does. And I have not argued that the church should give every damn dime away. In fact I have said on this board many times over that the Church needs a reserve fund and have suggested that maybe three times its annual revenue needs is similar to what other organizations like it does. So this argument is really a straw man. It is a combinations of cash, securities and property. And I support the church having its own endowment fund. Just not to the extent of about 20 to 25 times its annual operating needs. This is a common excuse. One would think the The Church of Jesus Christ would have relieving human suffering to be a larger part of its mission. The Jesus I read about seemed pretty concerned about reliving human suffering and it was not just a small part of hi directives. And the EPA fund is not being used to do any of that and I think you know that. It just grows and grows and grows. Yes and so what? This is really rather facetious of you to try to compare MS to a church. And as I have noted, you don't get to tell people what the feel and what they don't about things LDS so we can simply just chalk this up to your opinion and a rather poor one at that. Maybe. Maybe not, There is no doubt the church excels at amassing wealth and that on the back of its members while providing no transparency and that on the backs of many who likely really can't afford that 10%. And they do it based on claims that are clearly false and call it a commandment. I find that far more unethical than anything you want the heap on Dehlin's head. If his salary bothers my me I can quit my $75 per month any time I please with no repercussion. If you stop tithing you lose your ticket the the temple and also have the threat of disobeying a non god that does not exist. But like you said, you do you.

I have a few additional thoughts. Why is it that active members, and especially apologist, want to gripe and complain when disaffected or Ex Mos still are interested in as well as critical of, things LDS. Why the hell is it an issue if I, even after 20 years, an still periodically interested in MS or Mormonism Live with Bill Reel and RFM? My heritage is tied to the Church. I have ancestors on all sides that either converted in Europe or joined in New England and moved west with the church. I gave my whole life to the church for my first 52 years or so. I have family and friends that are still strongly involved in the church. The fact that I support MS and Mormonism live is not some odd tick that I am looking to satisfied. I think they are worth supporting for a variety of reasons but the main two are I do think they assist people that are where I was at years ago and I find some of their content interesting. I also think they are far more honest about things LDS than the church is as well as its defenders. It is not some flaw nor something that is emotionally broken that keeps me on an endless rage loop or anything like that. My heritage, my friends, and some family are the main reasons I have not removed my name from the church records. My wife, a convert, has talked about name removal and my response was that is up to her if she wants, but I have no desire to do so. So much of what I am for good or ill is because of Mormonism. It is still somewhat my tribe. And I have even considered maybe attending here and there. I do at times miss my ward community. Any way, I just find it peculiar that you and others just expect someone to simply move on. How I or others interact with Mormonism is after our departure and there is not a clock on when we decide not to interact with it anymore. My interaction now is very limited but it is still there and there is nothing wrong with me for that fact.