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Everything posted by mfbukowski

  1. Well also they are more likely to know the languages- we also have a sizable Polish collection
  2. Well also we have had a couple of Jewish and African American organizations donate their collections of records, primarily in book form, because they had no place to house them or train their people. We provided the space for them to safely store their records
  3. My wife is working on 16th century photographs of British parish records, hand written, and the hardest part is reading the script! But she sees it as a puzzle, and loves it!
  4. My wife volunteers at our local FH library, and the predominant groups who attend are Jewish people and African Americans who are not members! She gets a lot of questions about why "Mormons" do family history- it's a great missionary tool! We don't appreciate what we have!
  5. But was your BELIEF of your literal thought actually literal? And what about the literal understanding of others? Would that LITERALLY be literal or actually be real? Or was it simply symbolic of the literal understanding? Dude, you just haven't learned anything literal, though I have literally tried to teach you!
  6. Note no need for the word "literal". Jesus says it is about a spiritual rebirth
  7. Oh, not me! 🤪 I understand it so perfectly that we need to get on to a new topic!! LITERALLY.
  8. D&C 132 37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.
  9. So what was the verdict on this? Did my later post help any? Any new insights?
  10. Uh, no, that's ok I could say the same, but we have shown again and again that it doesn't work Families are not literal. You are talking about words and theories = abstractions - by using the word "literal". It's self contradictory
  11. Come on Ahab, get a dictionary This is ludicrous! lit·er·al /ˈlidərəl,ˈlitrəl/ Learn to pronounce adjective 1. taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory. "dreadful in its literal sense, full of dread" 2. (of a translation) representing the exact words of the original text. "a literal translation from the Spanish" People are not words If you are not speaking the language correctly, don't be surprised if no one understands you
  12. But wait a minute! How come we are children of God then BEFORE baptism? It's ok. We're literally imprisoning electrons here, against their will.
  13. This is why I see the that the church has a tremendous affinity for humanist converts if they could see us as theistic humanists! But no, we invent a cartoon version of humanism as "evil" and "relativistic", and postmodernism as incompatible with an idea of a rock solid temple of "TRVTH", while all along ignoring that we are all created by LOGOS, THE WORD. We LDS folks still have the need to come to a full understanding of our kinship with humanism, instead of seeing it as the enemy. We are losing members because we don't see it!! And I think that our notion that the "Fall" was part of God's plan, and a step forward for humanity, instead of a source of depravity, and "original sin" is also what sets us apart, in seeing humanity as innately having divine potential. That also then affects our notion of the role that baptism plays on our progression. And then also the importance of faith vs works. We come down more toward works and worthiness than you do, since, though we ARE saved by grace, "after all we can do" a lot of it is up to us But then also we can progress after death so there is less urgency to "get it done" there is no need for the idea that one can know the date and time that one was allegedly "saved", and no eternal hell to burn in. And on it goes. No need to explain how 3 persons can be one, we already naturally know what it is to be a family or team, unified in getting the job done. And on the doctrines go affecting every little nook and corner of the way we think and act, and ensuring that the creeds just don't work for us
  14. This official source backs up all I told you about becoming like God, and human potential. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/becoming-like-god?lang=eng
  15. Yes I see it now. Jehovah the Word- "by whom all things were made" suddenly learns little by little as a child? Pretty much the only explanation has to be something like "brain fog". I am old enough to experience that with names now- sometimes it takes a long time for them to come back to me! On the other hand, none of us remember the pre-existence! So the Veil was not exclusive
  16. Yes correct- I forgot about that! So yes perhaps that helped her learn about "symbols" after she had already seen water- just as a child learns that words "represent" an experience. The point of course is that that "proves" that symbols are NOT the experience- or as is mischaracterized here, the "thing" "Things" would not "exist"- in any relevant way to humans- in a world where no one experienced them. Take God for an example, The only way to know he "exists" is to experience him in one way or another
  17. Nope I am wrong- he was already divine - heck HE is Jehovah! So fergitabout that one! My bad!
  18. Yep, I can see both of those as possibilities
  19. OOO- good one! But then I might ask if that makes Him different than us in "nature"? That creates a loophole big enough to drive a chapel through.
  20. OK, well I have given you a few quotes which I see as making my position 'legitimate" and hope you grow in your LDS journey to see them that way- at least for us as our beliefs- which of course you may accept or not. I like you and like to discuss things with you, so after 41 years in the church and having been in every calling for men "below" Stake Presidency including bishop and temple worker, they have not kicked me out yet, so I will do my best to be strictly "orthodox" in my explanations- and there are certainly enough folks here to point out my mistakes if I make any. I will go through all the questions one by one. A note on "doctrine" and its meaning for us- it is defined as what is "consistently taught" in church publications, conference etc.- and so that will also be my criteria Again, Mormon Doctrine by McConkie is NOT a good source, but the "Encyclopedia of Mormonism" seems to have become a quasi-official source. Man, you like to get into the tough ones huh? Well as a fully orthodox Wittgensteinian, let me say that the words just sometimes get in the way, and there is a whole slew of words here, maybe even two or three slews. So any sentence I say could become an entier thread if you want to show that we we do believe what I am telling you. I am willing if you are, and that way the board can verify the points I am making. In general LDS see "eternal progression" as just what the words say- a progression that goes on eternally. So that means that virtually all progression by all beings CAN go on forever, with no end. So EVERYTHING for us is a continuum without limits. There IS no end to progression, it's not something that eventually you "have" and now you're done. It's like getting your Phd- there is a point in time that you get it, but it doesn't stop there, now you get to write books and papers and make a reputation, and climb higher and higher in your discipline etc, but for eternity! So too with "divinity". It's not a switch you throw and in one second you go from having no divinity to having all possible divinity. So let's use another word for "divinity"- and the word "intelligence" is actually used in the scriptures nearly as a synonym for "divinity" or "glory", but it is a good word because one can grow forever in "intelligence" where "divinity" carries a connotation that either one has it or one does not. So do you understand our idea of the Pre-existence? We were all born of Heavenly Mother and Heavenly Father as spirits. AS on earth, some of us naturally had more "intelligence" about spiritual matters, but it is said that of ALL the spirits- all humans who were yet unborn, meaning all humans- ONE was the "most intelligent" of them all, and that was He who was to become Christ Let's start with Heavenly Father and Mother. It is scriptural that Christ has not done anything that he has not seen his father do. We take that as an implication that Father must also have lived on an earth like ours- in a different "eternity"- because of course there was no time reference in THIS eternity until Father created time for us, AFTER he reached exaltation himself- and of course we do not "know" much about either. Yet we do know scripturally that there are and were many many worlds before us and that will come after us. That is what exaltation IS, that we can become fathers and mothers of worlds- universes- etc after countless eons of progression. Remember- all humans are co-eternal with God, meaning eternal in one direction and that is forward- but also realize that for our Father, El, (let's say) since he created THIS eternity- it is in a sense HIS (and Mother's) eternity. We are talking here about HIS and his WIFE's "eternity", so language cannot handle the idea of "before eternity" BUT in this context where there can be multi-verses (scientifically justified paradigm) it IS possible. So in THIS eternity we can be "co-eternal" with God- since it is the only eternity we can possibly know about except of course what is revealed. So now let me answer the above quoted question! { Are you saying that Christ has no more divinity that any other human - just divinity in potential? He may have reached a higher potentiality that the rest of us, or the highest potential that a human is eternally capable of, but He is still on a continuum just like all of us? Christ throughout his existence has undergone exaltation? } I would say that Christ now has what we would call "infinite intelligence" in that there is no way to measure or even determine how much "intelligence-divinity" he has relative to us. It is a dead ended question EXCEPT to say simply, "Yes He is infinitely above us" No He has not "reached his limits" but yes is still on a continuum just like us. We are all on the same "elevator" but some are moving quicker than others- that is MY personal understanding, not church doctrine. I can't understand it any other way. Christ throughout his eternal existence- (but remember He co-eternal (in this "eternity") with Father AND all of we who are spirit children of El=Father )began as an "intelligence" as we all do (totally doctrinal) but he was already "more intelligent" spiritually than any of us but still had much to learn. Yes he was a God before he came to earth- known as "Jehovah" in the OT. There is no way of knowing "when"- as if when even makes sense in the eternities- he crossed the line of being "exalted" or not. I suspect he was always that way. No way of knowing but yes, we can all become like Him. Unknowable, but I cannot conceive how that could be the case. His progression and ours is continuous. This is not an Olympic sprint. Hopefully by now you can see how these questions are getting a little.... off base. Hopefully this has already been answered- if not let me know! In my opinion, I am quite sure that what I have said would be quite close to what President Nelson would have said. Let those who disagree, disagree!
  21. Yes you did- shown by your rep point- and I think you were the only one. It seems that happens fairly often around here. Except when I am being bad 🥲
  22. I also suggest you read this, from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, it is semi-official and well represents our beliefs https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/God_the_Father More later....
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