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How to answer/address a comment made by my Daughter-in-law


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Posted
4 hours ago, bOObOO said:

A would-be rapist can easily become an accepted sex partner simply by the would-be victim becoming a willing participant in the would-be sex encounter.  A rapist isn't considered a rapist if the sex partner consents to the sex encounter.

None of the labels can be applied correctly until whatever will happen happens and is over and done with.

 

Posted
5 hours ago, california boy said:

Interesting that modern apostles and prophets have a 36 year expiration and their beliefs were a reflection of the times they lived in..  Do you feel the same about apostles who wrote 2000 years ago?  If not, why not.

Yes, I feel the same. A lot of obsolete stuff out there.

“Each of you must have a spade as part of your equipment. Whenever you relieve yourself, dig a hole with the spade and cover the excrement.” - Deuteronomy 23:13

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet." - 1 Timothy 2:12

"If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity." - Deuteronomy 25:12

 

And there are some that are more controversial. For example I think 99.9% of the members of the church would not follow this verse. Ahab might be an exception and still believe it is a fine idea.

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." - Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Posted
5 hours ago, bOObOO said:

A would-be rapist can easily become an accepted sex partner simply by the would-be victim becoming a willing participant in the would-be sex encounter.  A rapist isn't considered a rapist if the sex partner consents to the sex encounter.

None of the labels can be applied correctly until whatever will happen happens and is over and done with.


2024305E-E973-4A6B-9065-648D1225C16D.jpeg.22442b359570d1fc2bc102d3ff6b77ff.jpeg

Posted
5 hours ago, bOObOO said:

A would-be rapist can easily become an accepted sex partner simply by the would-be victim becoming a willing participant in the would-be sex encounter.  A rapist isn't considered a rapist if the sex partner consents to the sex encounter.

None of the labels can be applied correctly until whatever will happen happens and is over and done with.


2024305E-E973-4A6B-9065-648D1225C16D.jpeg.22442b359570d1fc2bc102d3ff6b77ff.jpeg

Posted
12 hours ago, Fether said:

It’s not about how current it is. It’s about the source it comes from. Your claim was that the church has built in shame into the repentance process they teach. Find a church spur e that supports this claim and we can talk.

What is the church?  You seem to have a position that  the church is not its people. I totally disagree.  The body of the church it its people. Event the top leaders are part of the people.

12 hours ago, Fether said:

 

I agree that there are major issues in the church. But it is come almost entirely from culture. The church today does not teach these polluted things, they teach the exact opposite.

Numerous examples of shame culture have been given to you that are current. Walking porn,andso on.

12 hours ago, Fether said:

No need to. I actually agree with these sentiments. I’ve chosen not to date girls because they swear, drink alcohol, actively break the LOC, and other reasons. Not saying such people are not worthy of dating… it’s just an “equally yoked thing”.

Two ear rings is a lot different than breaking the LOC or not keeping the WoW.

12 hours ago, Fether said:

I’m not ignoring these awful teachings. My point is that The Church, as the organization I was baptized into and made covenants in, did not recommend these books

A book written by an apostle and then president of the church and recommend by bishops is the CHurch you were baptized into.  

12 hours ago, Fether said:

I can sympathize with you on this point (minus the “control” part). I do think there needs to be more training for leaders.

 

And the Church is responsible if they don't nip it in the bud.  There is NOT this separate  ethereal entity called the church that is apart from its people and culture.  It is nonsensical to promote otherwise.

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Numerous examples of shame culture have been given to you that are current. Walking porn,andso on.

Can you define shame for me? I think our definitions are different.

 

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Two ear rings is a lot different than breaking the LOC or not keeping the WoW.

I agree, but again, this is more about being equally yoked. I wouldn’t suggest my sister marry a stalwart Latter-day Saint who loves the gospel and obeys it to the letter. Why? Because she is the exact opposite. She does not follow the gospel at all. She doesn’t want to. 
 

similarly, if the prophet makes a simple directive that is easy to follow and has little consequences, I am going to follow it. But I am not going to tie myself for eternity to a person who won’t. Not saying that that person is worthy of it, but I am not on the same level as that person.

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

A book written by an apostle and then president of the church and recommend by bishops is the CHurch you were baptized into.  

This is where we deviate in understanding, and is likely the core of our disagreement.
 

You see every word spoken and written by any leader of the church at any time as being representative of the church.

I only count the content published and accepted by the church as being representative of the church.

Edited by Fether
Posted
18 minutes ago, Fether said:

Can you define shame for me? I think our definitions are different.

I would define it this way: a painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior.....but with a twist.  I would say by perceived, taught or indoctrinated wrong behavior.

18 minutes ago, Fether said:

 

I agree, but again, this is more about being equally yoked. I wouldn’t suggest my sister marry a stalwart Latter-day Saint who loves the gospel and obeys it to the letter. Why? Because she is the exact opposite. She does not follow the gospel at all. She doesn’t want to. 
 

similarly, if the prophet makes a simple directive that is easy to follow and has little consequences, I am going to follow it. But I am not going to tie myself for eternity to a person who won’t. Not saying that that person is worthy of it, but I am not on the same level as that person.

Ok. I would suggest you are part of the shame culture of the church.

18 minutes ago, Fether said:

This is where we deviate in understanding, and is likely the core of our disagreement.
 

You see every word spoken and written by any leader of the church at any time as being representative of the church.

I only count the content published and accepted by the church as being representative of the church.

Yea that is a cop out.  Totally.  And I never saw every word written by a leader as representative. But again using Kimball's book as an example, when it is sold by the church, oft quoted in GC talks and quoted in manuals like it was, recommended by bishops, approved reading when I was a missionary, it represents the church. And honestly given the devotion and worship most members give GAs their words carry a lot of weight and influence regardless of where they say it. You know, walking porn...

Posted
27 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I would define it this way: a painful feeling of humiliation or distress caused by the consciousness of wrong or foolish behavior.....but with a twist.  I would say by perceived, taught or indoctrinated wrong behavior.

And how would you define guilt? And do you think feeling guilty for wrongs you have committed is a good thing?

And lastly, how would you suppose the church better teach and distinguish between these two

Posted
28 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Ok. I would suggest you are part of the shame culture of the church.

This is asinine!
Why is that shame culture? Because I want to marry somebody who has the same values as me? How is that shame? Would it be better that I just ignore my own values, and decide who I marry by rolling some dice or spinning a bottle?

How do you suppose we pick a spouse?

Posted
11 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

Self explanatory. Sold by Deseret Book. Which is owned by the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints.

I didn’t realize DB was directly run by the church

Posted
1 hour ago, Fether said:

This is asinine!
Why is that shame culture? Because I want to marry somebody who has the same values as me? How is that shame? Would it be better that I just ignore my own values, and decide who I marry by rolling some dice or spinning a bottle?

How do you suppose we pick a spouse?

I feel sorry for your future spouse.

Posted
1 hour ago, Fether said:

And how would you define guilt? And do you think feeling guilty for wrongs you have committed is a good thing?

And lastly, how would you suppose the church better teach and distinguish between these two

You seem like a young and rather immature person. Talk to me in 20 or 30 years.

Posted
2 hours ago, Fether said:

This is asinine!
Why is that shame culture? Because I want to marry somebody who has the same values as me? How is that shame? Would it be better that I just ignore my own values, and decide who I marry by rolling some dice or spinning a bottle?

How do you suppose we pick a spouse?

I think he is referring to the fact that you would totally dismiss someone as a possible spouse simply because she has two ear rings.  That seems pretty judgmental.

Posted
On 10/18/2021 at 1:16 PM, Maestrophil said:

 

I know that they are faithful to each other, so chastity is not a current issue, but it got me to thinking - how would a bishop respond if such ayoung woman came in asking for a recommend, admitted that she lived with her husband before they married, but have now been married for a few years.  Would the issue of regret come up if she didn't bring it up?  What if it did and she said she didn't regret the choice?  I'm glad I am not a bishop. 😉  Of course, I know the mantle and the spirit are with bishops so they are fit for the task.

So, is there any advice I could or should offer my son and DIL?  Should I not follow up on the conversation at all?  It's hard with adult kids to know where to draw the line between being a parent and giving them a wide enough birth to be free-agents and adults.  

 

 

The larger issue, from where I stand, is why does she want to attend the temple? It seems a "socially normative" event from a LDS perspective rather than a heart-felt one. They do not attend church, do not like the culture (I can absolutely relate to that one) and struggle with issues that are central to LDS living (WOW, dressing, etc). Given the issues above, I believe that the temple will not do much in general for them. The divorce rate in the church is fast approaching the norm "out there" so the temple is not going to do much if they struggle with other issues in their walk with God.

Posted
2 hours ago, Teancum said:

I feel sorry for your future spouse.

Please answer the questions. If not values, what do we look for when dating and a spouse?

Posted
1 hour ago, california boy said:

I think he is referring to the fact that you would totally dismiss someone as a possible spouse simply because she has two ear rings.  That seems pretty judgmental.

It definitely is. If someone swears regularly, drinks coffee, not go to church, and ignoring basic directives from the person I believe to speak for God… for my sake and hers, I am not going to date her

Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Teancum said:

You seem like a young and rather immature person. Talk to me in 20 or 30 years.

I too find the best response to difficult questions to be ad hominem.

Im genuinely learning things in this conversation and hearing things I did not know. Can you please define for me shame, guilt, and whether one is good or not?

Edited by Fether
Posted
11 minutes ago, Fether said:

It definitely is. If someone swears regularly, drinks coffee, not go to church, and ignoring basic directives from the person I believe to speak for God… for my sake and hers, I am not going to date her

The fact that you see wearing two earrings the same as swearing, drinking coffee and not going to church is comparable is astounding to me.  Follow the prophet in lock step, or you are not worthy of my consideration.  wow.  I can certainly see why so many feel unwelcomed at Church.  This is exactly the type of judgmental attitude that many really hate about Church members.

Posted
4 minutes ago, california boy said:

The fact that you see wearing two earrings the same as swearing, drinking coffee and not going to church is comparable is astounding to me.  Follow the prophet in lock step, or you are not worthy of my consideration.  wow.  I can certainly see why so many feel unwelcomed at Church.  This is exactly the type of judgmental attitude that many really hate about Church members.

It’s all about assimilation really. That’s why there’s such a big emphasis on unity nowadays. 
 

 

 

Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, california boy said:

The fact that you see wearing two earrings the same as swearing, drinking coffee and not going to church is comparable is astounding to me. 

I definitely don’t and I didn’t intend on portraying that. This is a conversation that is completely outside the realm of religion, this is basic relationship development. It’s about finding similar values, not to what level is someone sinning.
 

There may be people out there who drink, by hate marijuana. Those people shouldn’t date people who smoke marijuana.

There may be people who view pornography on occasion, but find piercings to be a disgrace to one’s body. Those people shouldnt date people with piercings.

To drive home my point. I wouldn’t date a KKK clans(wo)man that calls for the burning of black men. I also wouldn’t date a girl who can’t help but gossip all the time. I don’t view those as equally bad, it is just that neither align with my values.

Edited by Fether
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