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Islander

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  1. Again, you are skirting the argument. Religion frequently degrades over time, and often ends up in corrupted practices rejected by the Lord again and again. I sustain that ANY practice not explicitly revealed by the Lord (like missa pro defunctis) is outside revelation and thus a human invention. When it comes to the worship of God man does not decide and since there is no prescription for such prayers in revelation (ancient or modern), I suggest it finds itself outside of the will of God and thus useless.
  2. You did not offer ANY scriptural support for your argument.
  3. One thing I've noted in this forum is that everyone seems quite set in their ways and no matter what the point argued is there is no true intent or ability to actually discuss the subject in a cogent way. If we can all do whatever we like based on preference or feeling, just because it is not explicitly prohibited in the scriptures, we all soon will be rolling around on the floor "slayed in the spirit" handling snakes or speaking gibberish languages like charismatics down the streets. How about drinking oil from the Temple? It is consecrated and ought to purify us internally and promote health and well being? The reason why a person has to be COMPLETELY immersed during the ordinance of baptism, for example, is because the LORD has said so. No matter how many times it HAS to be repeated, it will be so because the LORD has commanded and prescribed how it HAS to be performed. When an ordinance is not observed with precision, over time small changes are introduced and eventually it will no longer resemble the original. You can see that in the apocope that occurs in language over time. There are some 600 prayers in the bible and none of them are in reference to the dead. Prayer being the primary means of communication with our Heavenly Father, if prayer for the dead was important or necessary, God would have said so. I guess some of you believe improvement in that area is needed when the Lord did not deemed it necessary. The traditions of men are irrelevant when it comes to worship. God decides how He wants to be worshiped and thus anything not prescribed by Him is outside of His approval and blessing. I quoted scripture on the previous post that point to the displeasure of God with strange practices outside of His revelation. But EVERYBODY, conveniently, avoided discussing it and digressed in favor of human commentary and historical anecdotes. But, have at it.
  4. You digressed. Still, there is NO scriptural support for praying for the dead.
  5. The philosophies of men mingled with scriptures. Still, there is absolutely NO scriptural support for the practice
  6. On condition of repentance, faith and obedience. Salvation is freely give by it was not free. We were bought from eternal slavery, death and hell by the precious blood of Christ. We are washed clean when we surrender the natural man and our sinful nature to the control of the Spirit, to walk in newness of life, reborn and part of the new covenant.
  7. Talk about moving the goal post. The issue was political pressure. Prayer is offered in humility and submission. We plead with our Heavenly Father that all things be according to HIS will and pray that our petition would be in sync with HIS plan and will for us. But He is sovereign and will do according to the holy counsel of HIS will. We can't pressure the Almighty God into anything.
  8. That is a rather generic prayer for the work at large. It is not the same as praying for specific people as the OP described. Te line is not that fine but rather bold. The issue here is the proverbial slippery slope into strange and unorthodox forms of worship, as it is often the case. Pretty soon, why not pray with the deceased in the coffin at Church (as the Catholics do)? Why wait until it is buried and out of sight? There is noting new and there is long history of worship to the dead in human history. Again, I understand the sentiment but I maintain that the practice is not supported in scripture and outside of what God has revealed and ordained. Preserving the integrity of the ordinance is one of the responsibilities of the priesthood. This is why we repeat the Sacrament prayer as many times as we need to get it "right" even if ONE word is out of place. It is that important.
  9. We don't decide how to worship God. God decides how He wants to be worshipped. Invariably, departing from the prescribed way of worship leads to idolatry and superstition. Again, I cited Lev 10:1 as an example of God taking issue with a way of worship that was not the prescribed one. The sons of Aaron thought they were in the clear. After all, fire is fire, they thought. Not so when it comes to the things of God. Intent is not substitute for obedience. 1 Sam 13 is another example. Saul made a sacrifice and was rebuked by the Lord and prophet. The Lord, our God is a God of order. No room for improvisation, no matter the good intentions.
  10. People are free to do what they will and often do. There are many things that are expressly prescribed or prohibited in scripture. But, it is precisely scripture which point to and describes for us the character, atributes, history and promises of God. However, the argument relates to: is such a practice outside of God's revealed truth and thus, in fact, contrary to the will of God? God is not fond of people improvising on what He has decreed. "Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the Lord, which He had not commanded them. And fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord. Then Moses said to Aaron, “It is what the Lord spoke, saying, ‘By those who come near Me I will be treated as holy, And before all the people I will be honored.’So Aaron, therefore, kept silent. Lev. 10:1-3
  11. Wild speculations and baseless inferences. The first clear reference to a catalog of scriptures accepted in antiquity by the early church fathers that later became the New Testament writings is found in the so-called Muratorian Canon, a rather unsophisticated Latin 8th-century manuscript translated from a Greek list written in Rome c. 170–180, named for its discoverer and publisher Lodovica Antonio Muratori (1672–1750). The first few lines are lost, Luke is referred to as “the third book of the Gospel,” and the canon thus contains [Matthew, Mark] Luke, John, Acts, 13 Pauline letters, Jude, two letters of John, and Revelation. By the 4th century, Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria and a significant theologian, delimited the canon and settled the strife between East and West. Both, Revelation and Hebrews (as part of the Pauline writings) were accepted. TOnly the 27 books of the New Testament were declared canonical and not others. In the Greek churches there was still controversy about Revelation, but in the Latin Church, under the influence of Jerome, Athanasius’ decision was accepted
  12. The idea that we, broken, sinful, fallen, puny humans can "pressure" the God of the universe into anything is simply delusional, to say the least.
  13. By the 1st century AD, Judaism has descended into a decadent pit of superstition, empty ritual and a morass of rabbinical traditions that the Savior thoroughly condemned in the Sermon of the Mount. The idolatry of Israel is legendary and every prophet chastised Israel for it. Ezekiel 16 is a scathing rebuke of Israel for her harlotry and abominations with idol worship and going after other gods. My point is that nowhere in scripture God commanded or allowed prayer to or for the dead. The dead are not part of our religious realm. The temple work avails those to whom God offers the opportunity to achieve redemption beyond the vail. Out part in that ordinance ends there. Anything else is shooting beyond the mark.
  14. Again, there is no scriptural support for that practice. We pray for each other every day. There is absolutely no mention anywhere in scripture of praying to God for the dead. That is a Roman practice with no root in historical Christianity or modern revelation.
  15. And, I always contended, is one of the issues that the Church has never explained with any degree of theological certainty. That is why I maintain that if such a thing happens again it will be the end of it. No amount of political or religious justification would do. I welcome the opportunity of seeing whether the Church will stand and endure the wrath of government and men or if it breaks under pressure. Too long have we enjoyed health, wealth and leisure when none was promised by the Savior. The worth of soldier is not proven but in battle. So, we'll see.
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