Advice on a recent family experience

[JVW]

1 hour ago, Autonomous said:

Has anyone else here experienced a change in belief? 

Yes. I was a hardcore Nihilist-Atheist and then God introduced Himself to me and I started a journey to become one with Him. So far my journey is mapped around the God of Israel and so far it's been a good one, but if that doesn't pan out I'll still know there's a God and seek from other sources on my quest to become one with God.

1 hour ago, Autonomous said:

new piece of info can often change everything.  Best to be agnostic, open to new info, really listen to other groups - better research, deeper understanding and appreciation of all. -  closer more meaningful relashionships with all.

I disagree that it's best to be agnostic, but I think we have some overlap here. I do think it's best to be very aware of what one truly "knows" teased apart from what one "believes". This is a huge thing that people lie to themselves about whether it's "I know the church is true" or "I know that climate change is going to submerge Florida". Being agnostic in the sense of being aware of what I believe is great, but if I decide to start doubting what I know from my own personal experiences than I am a fool.

[JVW]

On 5/14/2025 at 3:05 PM, Autonomous said:

 

Love has many meanings.  

When you are at the pearly gates, according to your beliefs, will you leave all the others behind and waltz into your limited, incomplete heaven without all those other non-believers?  

 

Limited heaven beliefs = limited love, shallow bonds, love of church >love of people.  

 

If you loved people more than your church, you would reject the Mormon version of heaven.  

 

Heaven isn't heaven unless everyone is there.  Mormon heaven sounds more like he'll to me - split families, such a small little group who turns their nose up at everyone else   - sounds like hell.

I guess you weren't aware... As far as I know the LDS are the only ones who believe that all will be going to heaven and receiving God's glory forever except sons of perdition, of whom the only person (I think) that the LDS can definitively say is a son of perdition is Cain. Christianity arbitrarily throws a bunch of people into the bucket of going to hell forever if they didn't hear about and accept Jesus while they were alive, a very narrow scope. LDS believe that those who suffer in hell are the wicked who will be paying the penalty for their own sins during the millenial reign of Jesus Christ on the Earth before they get resurrected in time for final judgment.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Not saying that dynamic maps neatly onto this specific situation but the person doing the hurtful thing should be the one getting the correction. The reality is only the victim will ever take the advice.

Which may be why people don’t bother to give bullies this advice.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No one would write that ‘I respect your choices BUT’ suggestion into a gift to a ‘faithful’ child.

I beg to differ here.  Perfectionist parents may keep trying to help their child improve even faithfully behavior, just as parents of children who get As may push a child to get A+.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Autonomous said:

Best to be agnostic, open to new info, really listen to other groups - better research, deeper understanding and appreciation of all. -  closer more meaningful relashionships with all.

So never make a decision based on evidence?  Does it actually lead to deeper relationships if you never choose to trust, to commit?

How would that work in every other aspect of your life?  Always choose to be agnostic about love would lead to never choosing to commit to loving someone enough to have that closer, more meaningful relationship.

As far as not limiting your source of truth to one person, one institution…LDS scripture teaches us to look for truth everywhere.  To study out of the best books.  Now some may limit that to only books by LDS authors, but the Church itself does not.

”118 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best bookswords of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.”

Iirc, over the door of the BYU Provo library is one of my favorite scriptures:

”The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.”

A faithful Saint who is paying attention will not end up limiting their search for truth to one source, imo, because our doctrine pushes us to do more, even if they start from a limited position.

Edited May 15, 2025 by Calm

[CV75]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is strange how victims are often given this advice but it is rarely given to bullies.

Not saying that dynamic maps neatly onto this specific situation but the person doing the hurtful thing should be the one getting the correction. The reality is only the victim will ever take the advice.

Bullies typically don't ask for this kind of advice, and I don't take the OP to be an exception to that. But however you might judge or misjudge the person, if they ask for advice I give it to them.

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Oh, come on. No one would write that ‘I respect your choices BUT’ suggestion into a gift to a ‘faithful’ child. If that truly is our language of love we have much bigger problems.

Whatever your language of love, I don't see where your quote was written into the gifts. Why assume the givers' respect and praise of their children's' path and journeys aren't genuine? The girls indicated they take it that way; let's believe them, and take the parents' comments at face value also. Since the scenario is laid out already, ther resolution of feelings is not about who is right or wrong in the transaction, but grace.

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

They often do this by disconnecting and getting some distance and then get to deal with complaints about not ever showing up. This reinforces the idea that the reason for the chasm is their disaffection from religion. The being if they weren’t disaffected they would be around more. Quite possibly true but the disaffection isn’t the reason they are withdrawing.

Absolutely, which is dysfunctional and not the kind of advice the OP or his children should follow. I would say the reason for the withdrawal (or the rejection, as the case may be) is a lack of grace.

[Doctor Steuss]

Hi Maestrophil,

Please keep in mind that this is from solely *my* perspective, and if *my* parents had given *me* something similar (and just imagining it... if the actual situation happened, I might feel/react differently).

I’d absolutely love and cherish the art, and the personalized note, but it would be like someone really loving football, knowing full well that I don’t like football at all (they invite me to games, and I decline, they want me to watch with them, and I decline, they try to talk to me about it, and I have no interest to, etc., etc.), and despite knowing what my feelings are about football, they give me a football jersey that they customized as a gift, and include with it a letter of how they respect that I don’t like football.

It'd be weird (for lack of a better descriptive).  I wouldn’t see it as judgy necessarily, but it would be like a passive-aggressive way of reminding me how much they like football, and that they are somewhat consumed by the fact that I don’t also like football.

Obviously, I am in no way equating religious devotion to being a sports fan, but this is the metaphor than popped into my mind to best describe what my feelings about it would be.

It can be hard with gifts to remember that it is supposed to be something that will be meaningful to the other person, and not necessarily what is meaningful to us (I'm really bad at this, and a terrible gift-giver).

[Autonomous]

3 hours ago, JVW said:

...if I decide to start doubting what I know from my own personal experiences than I am a fool.

 

Wise men describing an elephant parable - they all "know" from their own personal experience.  I'm not sure if you have experienced trauma?  where your mind dissociates?  Your prefrontal cortex shuts down, can't process language or what is being said, emotional detachment - literally numb, "Comfortably Numb" as Pink Floyd sings... anyways, I've learned not to trust my own mind, know it has and does lead me astray - have to rely on research, combining info from others (if I feel triggered, have to look around, should I really be triggered?)  LOL - we're all just people, to one extent or another, the "I experienced it" argument does not work for me.  Consensus through reproducible, independently verified - multiple groups, all in agreement, now that is something to pay attention to.  My own mind - or someone else's own mind - or just one group's groupthink going on -  not so much.

Serving Jury duty, we were asked interesting questions around what constitutes "beyond a reasonable doubt".  We were shown parts of images, where part of the image was missing and asked - do you "know" what this is a picture of?  Not “Beyond All Doubt”, but just reasonable doubt - we were judged based on when we thought we had enough of the picture to reasonably say what we thought it was a picture of.  They also asked us - a nun, a child, a police officer, and a hooker all testify - who do you believe more?  - the right answer, we're not supposed to judge anyone based on their background or their occupation - only judge on physical tangible evidence, does testimony match physical evidence?  Eyewitness accounts tend to be unreliable in court cases.  It is not uncommon to hear false memories, biased feedback.... in his court case, without the videos he took of the kids, he would have never been convicted - everyone "testified" what a wonderful high priest - called of god - respected church leader he was.  

A good book - autobiography of Ben Franklyn, he was a good writer, scientist and politician.  I can't find the page but there's a paragraph where he discusses  avoiding saying things like ‘certainly,’ or ‘undoubtedly,’ etc.,  and instead saying "it seems like" - or ‘I imagine a thing to be so or so, it appears to me at present,’   - that it is less embarrassing if one is wrong, and provides more open dialogue to leave room for - further light and knowledge - as it were.

 

My God, why hast thou forsaken me? - I mean even Jesus had questions, wasn't certain... forsaken, abandoned - free, independent - the final struggle, breaking free from God, independence.  

 

  a celebrity - anyone who "converts".  It is always interesting to try the experiment, for a time....

  

3 hours ago, JVW said:

I guess you weren't aware... As far as I know the LDS are the only ones who believe that all will be going to heaven and receiving God's glory forever except sons of perdition, of whom the only person (I think) that the LDS can definitively say is a son of perdition is Cain. Christianity arbitrarily throws a bunch of people into the bucket of going to hell forever if they didn't hear about and accept Jesus while they were alive, a very narrow scope. LDS believe that those who suffer in hell are the wicked who will be paying the penalty for their own sins during the millenial reign of Jesus Christ on the Earth before they get resurrected in time for final judgment.

 

I've been a member of multiple religious groups.  That belief isn't unique to LDS.  Different levels of glory isn't unique, and use of "chosen people" - to make members feel special, isn't unique.  It is a technique used to reinforce group cohesion and loyalty - telling someone they are chosen, highest degree of glory etc. to join and follow some group.  it works too - people "feel the spirit" in so many different groups, and just "know" god loves them soooo much and they are following the right leader etc.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevation_(emotion) - "a distinct feeling of warmth and expansion that is accompanied by... attachment to group or person.... herd instinct, animals experience elevation too, groupthink is a social herd construct - not testimony of "truth" - comes from the herd, keeps herds together - a cool thing that usually serves the individuals in that herd well... usually... 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2025 by Autonomous

[Autonomous]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

So never make a decision based on evidence?  Does it actually lead to deeper relationships if you never choose to trust, to commit?

How would that work in every other aspect of your life?  Always choose to be agnostic about love would lead to never choosing to commit to loving someone enough to have that closer, more meaningful relationship.

As far as not limiting your source of truth to one person, one institution…LDS scripture teaches us to look for truth everywhere.  To study out of the best books.  Now some may limit that to only books by LDS authors, but the Church itself does not.

”118 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best bookswords of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.”

Iirc, over the door of the BYU Provo library is one of my favorite scriptures:

”The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.”

A faithful Saint who is paying attention will not end up limiting their search for truth to one source, imo, because our doctrine pushes us to do more, even if they start from a limited position.

 

Limited evidence.  Always room to find new piece of info that changes everything.  

 

I am a fan of William G. Perry  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_G._Perry_(psychologist)

random google, many talk about the stages of intellectual development, 

https://www.jmu.edu/geology/_files/willperry.pdf

The highest stage is "commitment" - 

[Quote]

Position 6: Commitment Foreseen:
In this position the student begins to see the necessity of commitment. Having lived through the
plethora of choices available in multiplicity and relativism, Position 6 is seen as a “narrowing down” of
choices in preparation for the commitment of Position 7. There is also a newfound sense of inner strength
that comes of the autonomy of choosing; that is, the reality that the choice is his/hers grants the student
a confidence in himself, or at any rate, a realization that the choice is his/hers to make. The awareness
of Position 6 also makes the choices more personal and proactive instead of reactive: the choices are not
made because authorities have told her to think a certain way, but because s(he) has decided on his/her
own. This does not necessarily mean thats(he) has discounted the words of his/her former authorities, but
simply that they have now assumed a more reasonable place in our minds as fallible and human. The
student’ choices become his/her own instead of theirs, and his/her beliefs are distinctly individualized.
Commitment in Relativism
C Holds the same view of knowledge and authority but has chosen – in a deliberate, conscious way,
based on a close review of the situation – to adhere to a particular point of view, subscribe to a
particular school of thought, or stand up for a particular value.
C The difference between this person and the Dualist isthat the Committed Relativist has given thought
to the issue, and recognizes that the other perspectives have validity too; thus this person is
marked by a high degree of tolerance of the (differing) views of other people, so long as they are
willing to articulate the basis of their point of view and support it with evidence, sound reasoning,
etc.(This stage is characterized by:“This is right for me.”) [/Quote]

 

I've been married a looooong time (never divorced - been through quite a bit too.... ), have kids, have a long career - many years working at the same place, am on good terms with my parents.  I have demonstrated commitment in the face of uncertainty.  "Never meet your hero" - I've studied deeply enough to know the dark side of many I still learn from and look up to.  

 

Stage one - dualism, reliance on authority - to stage 6, the deepest kinds of relationships and commitment.  Many never reach the higher Perry stages.  I've reached commitment for some things.  

 

Edited May 16, 2025 by Autonomous
Evidence

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Which may be why people don’t bother to give bullies this advice.

They should punch the bullies instead.

5 hours ago, Calm said:

I beg to differ here.  Perfectionist parents may keep trying to help their child improve even faithfully behavior, just as parents of children who get As may push a child to get A+.

True, there are parents who can never be satisfied.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

Bullies typically don't ask for this kind of advice, and I don't take the OP to be an exception to that. But however you might judge or misjudge the person, if they ask for advice I give it to them.

My advice is to punch the bully.

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

Whatever your language of love, I don't see where your quote was written into the gifts. Why assume the givers' respect and praise of their children's' path and journeys aren't genuine? The girls indicated they take it that way; let's believe them, and take the parents' comments at face value also. Since the scenario is laid out already, ther resolution of feelings is not about who is right or wrong in the transaction, but grace.

They might be genuine but the receiver has every reason to doubt it when it comes packaged like this.

Imagine if someone sent you a gift that clearly demonstrated they are atheist and it included a handwritten letter bearing testimony that your religion is false. It also included a bit about how you are a good person somehow in spite of your faith and they respect you even if you stay with your faith.

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

Absolutely, which is dysfunctional and not the kind of advice the OP or his children should follow. I would say the reason for the withdrawal (or the rejection, as the case may be) is a lack of grace.

Which would mean what exactly?

[MustardSeed]

45 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Imagine if someone sent you a gift that clearly demonstrated they are atheist and it included a handwritten letter bearing testimony that your religion is false. It also included a bit about how you are a good person somehow in spite of your faith and they respect you even if you stay with your faith.

My mom who is a devout member and has a hard time seeing points of view outside the faith might say, “but the church is actually true so it’s different.” 
 

But if I suggested that if my husband gave her a maga hat that he hand sewed, with a personal manifesto touting reasons why the neighbors should be sent back to their birth countries, she might be bothered by that even if he told her he loves her no matter who she voted for- she “might” get the premise. But she’d still lean hard in to “but the church is true so it’s different.”  I admire her deep devotion to her faith. But she can’t fathom anyone possibly being honestly happy without The Gospel.   
For the record she doesn’t preach at all to my non LDS siblings.  But she doesn’t hide the details of her life either. I think she handles it well.  It’s me and my sisters she preaches to- go figure 🤗

Edited May 16, 2025 by MustardSeed

[CV75]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

My advice is to punch the bully.

They might be genuine but the receiver has every reason to doubt it when it comes packaged like this.

Imagine if someone sent you a gift that clearly demonstrated they are atheist and it included a handwritten letter bearing testimony that your religion is false. It also included a bit about how you are a good person somehow in spite of your faith and they respect you even if you stay with your faith.

Which would mean what exactly?

To address your question first, punching the bully (is there one in the OP?) lacks grace.

Everyone has a right to and "every reason" for their interpretation of gifts offered them.

I wouldn’t have a problem receiving a gift such as you described, but the OP isn’t seeking advice on the right way to interpret gifts and motives, but on how to improve family relationships. Pretty much the same thing as the happy wife thread.

Edited May 16, 2025 by CV75

[Autonomous]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

... how to improve family relationships....

 

As someone in a mixed faith family (Catholics, Mormons, JW's, and atheists - LGBTQ and conservatives - the whole mix in there between my kids, parents, grandparents) what works for us is - don't talk about politics or religion haha.  I actually have a conversation starter card game, that I have studied, so if something religious or political comes up I am prepared with how to change the conversation to something else.  Find common ground - food, nature, hobbies, work - plenty of other things to talk about - watch inspiring documentaries together, catch up on everyone's news (health, etc.).  I always have stories of students - inspiring things, stories of our community making it through storms, interesting scientific breakthroughs, art, music - go to a concert together- talk about the new e-cars, or talk sports if anyone is into that.  

Prepare a list of safe topics that are fun and inspiring to people, and stick to those.  Do NOT talk politics or religion.

 

we wei - act in harmony with natural flow, stop trying to force outcomes, trust in natural unfolding (or put it in God's hands if that is a better imagery for you).  He who knows does not speak - He who speaks does not know - Do not try to shine, just be.  Be content to simply be yourself (and let everyone else be themselves) - don't compare or compete, let things take their course, each unfolding in its own rhythm.  

 

Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be - famous words of wisdom   Haha, come in here and rant if you must, but keep these conversations online - in-person, stay quiet, no lectures, let it be.

Edited May 16, 2025 by Autonomous

[Amulek]

15 hours ago, Doctor Steuss said:

I’d absolutely love and cherish the art, and the personalized note, but it would be like someone really loving football, knowing full well that I don’t like football at all (they invite me to games, and I decline, they want me to watch with them, and I decline, they try to talk to me about it, and I have no interest to, etc., etc.), and despite knowing what my feelings are about football, they give me a football jersey that they customized as a gift, and include with it a letter of how they respect that I don’t like football.

It'd be weird (for lack of a better descriptive).  I wouldn’t see it as judgy necessarily, but it would be like a passive-aggressive way of reminding me how much they like football, and that they are somewhat consumed by the fact that I don’t also like football.

Obviously, I am in no way equating religious devotion to being a sports fan, but this is the metaphor than popped into my mind to best describe what my feelings about it would be.

I have personally received plenty of gifts that were either unwanted or un/under-appreciated (e.g., lottery scratch-offs, bottles of alcohol (in varying degrees of quality), a DVD of Battlefield Earth, etc.). Somehow, I was able to accept all of those gifts without assuming sinister motives on the part of the gift givers. Is it nice when somebody knows you well enough to give a gift you really love - of course it is. But sometimes people give gifts that are meaningful to them. That's just how people are. If you get something you don't care for, then feel free to return, re-gift, recycle, or do whatever you want with it, and then move on with your life. The world won't end.

 

[CV75]

54 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

 

As someone in a mixed faith family (Catholics, Mormons, JW's, and atheists - LGBTQ and conservatives - the whole mix in there between my kids, parents, grandparents) what works for us is - don't talk about politics or religion haha.  I actually have a conversation starter card game, that I have studied, so if something religious or political comes up I am prepared with how to change the conversation to something else.  Find common ground - food, nature, hobbies, work - plenty of other things to talk about - watch inspiring documentaries together, catch up on everyone's news (health, etc.).  I always have stories of students - inspiring things, stories of our community making it through storms, interesting scientific breakthroughs, art, music - go to a concert together- talk about the new e-cars, or talk sports if anyone is into that.  

Prepare a list of safe topics that are fun and inspiring to people, and stick to those.  Do NOT talk politics or religion.

 

we wei - act in harmony with natural flow, stop trying to force outcomes, trust in natural unfolding (or put it in God's hands if that is a better imagery for you).  He who knows does not speak - He who speaks does not know - Do not try to shine, just be.  Be content to simply be yourself (and let everyone else be themselves) - don't compare or compete, let things take their course, each unfolding in its own rhythm.  

 

Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be - famous words of wisdom   Haha, come in here and rant if you must, but keep these conversations online - in-person, stay quiet, no lectures, let it be.

I would say this underlying attitude is supported by Ecclesiastes 3:11-13, where grace benefits the interplay between timing, gifting and kinds of gifts. It can be shown whenever conflict, in our weakness, is not averted.

[MustardSeed]

33 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I have personally received plenty of gifts that were either unwanted or un/under-appreciated (e.g., lottery scratch-offs, bottles of alcohol (in varying degrees of quality), a DVD of Battlefield Earth, etc.). Somehow, I was able to accept all of those gifts without assuming sinister motives on the part of the gift givers. Is it nice when somebody knows you well enough to give a gift you really love - of course it is. But sometimes people give gifts that are meaningful to them. That's just how people are. If you get something you don't care for, then feel free to return, re-gift, recycle, or do whatever you want with it, and then move on with your life. The world won't end.

 

I agree. It’s a skill to accept a gift of any kind.  I personally think that especially if someone has left the family religion, a relic of that religion as a gift can certainly come across as tone deaf or as manipulative though imo. 

One can certainly graciously thank and toss and act polite- but imo it’s a missed opportunity to talk more deeply about what is really happening. 

[Analytics]

On 5/13/2025 at 10:07 AM, Maestrophil said:

So my questions, especially for those who might be in the amenities boat as my (adult) kids are:

1. How much of what they are saying comes from what we are doing and saying, and how much is their own perceptions or interpretations based on their situation.

2. How can we be better as parents in making them feel loved (other than never talking about our faith)?

3. Is it wrong that we ask them not to drink in our home - we don't care or comment if they drink at restaurants or at home when we are present? (The girls said they are upset they can't have a glass of wine at Thanksgiving dinner etc.)

4. Any idea why it's the girls who are upset with us, while the boys seem less so?

Any other insights are welcome, and if you have read this far in this voluminous post - thank you!

Hi Maestrophil,

I've personally been dealing with issues like these since I was born into a part-member family 50+ years ago. Over that time period, I've been on both sides of the divide, and I've watched other family members cross the divide, as well. I've seen both believers and apostates behave towards others with love, grace, and understanding, and I've seen both believers and apostates do and say some boneheaded things. For what its worth:

Is it their fault or your fault? I'd suggest you are both at fault. What you need to realize is that from their perspective, for some people the Church isn't a particularly healthy thing. You love it; good for you. They don't. You need to accept that. Giving somebody who has decided that the Church isn't for them a Book of Mormon painting would be like them giving you a painting of Hillary Clinton to hang on your living room wall (or if you happen to like Hillary Clinton, then a painting of Donald Trump). Even if they hand painted this themselves and included a note that they gave it to you because they love you and accept you, it would still come across as extremely tone-deaf and passive aggressive. 

That said, we all need grace.  

Here are a few stories that happened to me this last Christmas in Utah that illustrate good and bad cross-religion family behaviors.

Good Example: Alta Bombs
I live in the Midwest, and once a year, go skiing with a group of friends. We usually go to Utah, and when there always ski at Alta at least one day. A tradition we have is to always drink an "Alta Bomb" there. An Alta Bomb is a small glass of cold beer with a shot of espresso (coffee) poured in. The cold beer and hot coffee make a lukewarm concoction of beer and coffee that is every bit as nasty as it sounds. But for whatever reason, it's a tradition for us to drink those there. It suits the experience somehow.

My daughter married one of my ski-friend's sons, and this last Christmas I was in Utah for Christmas with the extended family, and a group of us went skiing--me, my sister, her husband (who is a bishop), a couple of their kids, my daughter, and me. My daughter is a new skier and this was her first time at Alta. Near the end of day when half of us were done and some were still skiing, I sheepishly asked my sister if she could drive my daughter and me from the Albion lodge where we were parked down to the Goldminer's Daughter lodge where they serve the Alta Bombs. It would be an initiation ritual to talk about with her husband. My sister graciously agreed, took us down there, dropped us off, and then picked us up 15 minutes later after we had our shot. My bishop brother-in-law asked about the Alta Bombs on the way down the canyon, and was extraordinarily gracious and non-judgmental in talking about it. The good-will points they earned that day were off the charts.

Bad Example: Wine
On Christmas day, the extended family was over at my dad's house. My dad was never a member, but married one. Perhaps 20% of the guests were non-members. One of my nephews decided this would be a good time to signal to his mother that he had left the Church, so he casually poured himself a glass of wine and started drinking it in front of everyone. His mother freaked out when she saw her son with a glass of wine. After thinking about it overnight, his mother went to my dad's (her father-in-law's) house to confront him. She announced: "I don't care if you drink, but my [30-year-old] son is not allowed to drink in front of his cousins, and if you dare allow him to drink in front of his cousins, you are going to have a problem with me! I don't care what you think or say about that. That's just the way it is." As she lectured him for about 10 minutes about how it was wrong for him to serve a glass of wine to an adult grandchild, she literally had some sort of panic attack and went to the E.R. 

Good Example: Gracious Hosting
After she left and the rest of the family were processing this spectacle, somebody asked my father what he was going to do. Everybody was braced for him to say, "It's my house, my grandson is an adult, and if I want to offer him a drink in my own home I'm going to do that, that is my right." But he didn't say that. Rather, he said, "You know what? My father always told me that it's very, very, important to be a gracious host and do whatever you can to make your guests feel welcome. From now on, I'm going to make sure my daughter-in-law feels welcome here, and I won't drink or serve alcohol in front of her." My dad had been serving alcohol in his home for 60 years, and everyone in the family knew that some wine being poured was part of the package of going there. But hearing him say he would stop serving it because he wanted to be a good host and make his guests feel comfortable won him an infinite amount of good will from everyone.

My Advice on Making Your Kids Feel Welcome
Is it wrong of you to ask your kids not to drink in your home? No. Of course not. It's your home. Your rules. But here is what you should ask yourself. What's more important, keeping wine out of my home, or making my kids feel loved? 

If I were in your shoes, making my kids feel loved is what I would choose. If you want to do that in a huge way, here is what you should do. If you don't have any wine glasses, go buy some. Buy a single bottle of inexpensive but classy wine (a bottle of Woodbridge Cabernet Sauvignon might cost $8.00. That is exactly what I'd get if I were you). And a $2.00 cork screw. The next time they come over for Sunday Dinner or whatever, have the wine bottle and glasses out. Then tell them, "We are as dedicated to the Church as ever, but we want to let you guys know how much we love you and accept you just the way you are. Would you like a glass of wine?" (If you wanted style points, you could say that while you opened the bottle and poured it.)

Of course you aren't morally obligated to do that. Your home. Your rules. I'm just saying that if you want to make your kids feel unconditional love, pouring them a glass of win will do it. It would be an incredibly powerful symbol that you love them. You accept them. Just the way they are. If you showed them that much grace, I'm confident they would reciprocate. 

Jesus served wine at parties. Are you willing to follow the example of Jesus and be Christlike in this way?

Edited May 16, 2025 by Analytics

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I agree. It’s a skill to accept a gift of any kind.  I personally think that especially if someone has left the family religion, a relic of that religion as a gift can certainly come across as tone deaf or as manipulative though imo. 

One can certainly graciously thank and toss and act polite- but imo it’s a missed opportunity to talk more deeply about what is really happening. 

I see where you are coming from, and I kind of agree. However, I’m not sure I’d go so far as to call it manipulative.

If a gift is an expression of someone’s talent or has personal meaning, even if it carries a religious tone, it can come more from a place of connection than control.

Sometimes it's just a way of saying, "You're still important to me, and this is part of who I am." I think intent matters a lot, and labeling it manipulative might overlook the nuance or sincerity behind the gesture.

 

[MustardSeed]

5 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I see where you are coming from, and I kind of agree. However, I’m not sure I’d go so far as to call it manipulative.

If a gift is an expression of someone’s talent or has personal meaning, even if it carries a religious tone, it can come more from a place of connection than control.

Sometimes it's just a way of saying, "You're still important to me, and this is part of who I am." I think intent matters a lot, and labeling it manipulative might overlook the nuance or sincerity behind the gesture.

 

I wish there were other nuanced versions of the word manipulative, because the word to me can suggest malintent or even evil cause.  
 

I don’t suspect maestro is that.  But any even subconscious ulterior motives are manipulative- 

“Youre still important to me” so I’ll give you a BoM comes off to me personally in a way of “you’re important to me so you need this item to relieve my concerns about you” which might not be loving. 
 

I can best say “you’re important to me” by giving a gift that is deeply meaningful the receiver , especially if it costs me something- time, effort, money, thought, risk etc

[Notatbm]

On 5/13/2025 at 8:07 AM, Maestrophil said:

• How much of what they are saying comes from what we are doing and saying, and how much is their own perceptions or interpretations based on their situation.

• How can we be better as parents in making them feel loved (other than never talking about our faith)?

• Is it wrong that we ask them not to drink in our home - we don't care or comment if they drink at restaurants or at home when we are present? (The girls said they are upset they can't have a glass of wine at Thanksgiving dinner etc.)

• Any idea why it's the girls who are upset with us, while the boys seem less so?

1- I’m coming from the inactive kid side of things. Parents are gone now, but for a good twenty years or so we (wife and I) would get church books (name any book from deseret and we got it) for all our birthdays and Christmas etc. I didn’t read one of em and we easily had  a couple thousand dollars worth of them before we ended up tossing them out after my parents died. They couldn’t check our bookshelf anymore. Also the continuous dialog about church stuff was true for them too. I grew up hearing incessant church talk. Church was their entire life. I didn’t really care to hear it but understood this was literally their life. They didn’t even have any non Mormon friends.

2- can’t help you there other than find something interesting in their lives to talk about. If you can’t find anything interesting other than church stuff. Well that’s a problem.

3- it is your house. As I’m the parent and I drink on occasion, I don’t do it when my kids are over so as not to influence the grand kiddos. I’m always happy to buy a beer if they want one tho. My kids are all on the way out so they really don’t care. They don’t drink anyway. 
 

4- no idea

 

 

 

 

 

[Notatbm]

On 5/13/2025 at 3:19 PM, california boy said:

Recently my siblings organized a sibling/spouse trip to Florida.  They rented a. big house and all stayed together for a week doing various activities around the area.  Every single sibling and their spouses went.  I was not invited, nor was my partner.  Some, not all, really objected to me being included.  Now I know that these past 10 years that I have been invited to family events, there were some who really didn't want me there.  

So knowing that not all my siblings want me around, I feel like I don't really want to go to family events.  I am exhausted trying to make them happy.  I really can't live my life trying to make other people happy with who they want me to be rather than who I actually am.  And I have plenty of friends in my life who actually like me the way I am.”

 

I have not experienced the same shunning as you have, but starting with my refusal to serve a mission I have been sort of an outcast with my family. Definitely not to the same level as you apparently but we have been excluded from lots of stuff. 
 

perhaps your family took Pres Oaks commentary (if even aware of it) about not being seen in public or allowing staying overnight to heart. You likely know the comment I’m talking about. If not, here it is:

“I can also imagine some circumstances in which it might be possible to say, ‘Yes, come, but don’t expect to stay overnight. Don’t expect to be a lengthy house guest. Don’t expect us to take you out and introduce you to our friends, or to deal with you in a public situation that would imply our approval of your “partnership.””

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/interview-oaks-wickman-same-gender-attraction

 

 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Autonomous said:

actually have a conversation starter card game, that I have studied, so if something religious or political comes up

Why not just pull out those cards?

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Autonomous said:

He who knows does not speak - He who speaks does not know

I get and agree with the rest of your post, but don’t understand this part.  First, it doesn’t make sense with you actually speaking in your post (I assume you are offering your advice/experience because you believe you do know something of value for others) and second, how will anyone learn anything of value from others through teaching if the ones who know don’t attempt to pass it on.  Sure, there is great value in being examples, but people can’t observe what is going on inside us and maybe that is what they need to know to learn what they  need to know.

So is this part meant generally or are you applying it to some specific behavior or situation?

Edited May 16, 2025 by Calm

[california boy]

On 5/13/2025 at 3:27 PM, MustardSeed said:

I’m so sad. You’re welcome to join my family at the beach in July- Hilton Head.   You would fit right in with us. 

 

On 5/13/2025 at 3:41 PM, Buckeye said:

This is really rough. I’m sorry you’re still being excluded. Have you asked your supportive siblings for their thoughts? They likely know the answer even if it’s not pleasant.
 

Consider counseling with the supportive siblings on how to include you. It sounds like they’ve found ways to include you in other settings. If the issue here is concern by some with sleeping in the same house with a same sex couple, could there be a resolution where your partnership (and maybe supportive siblings) stay in an adjacent home? I know that’s not ideal and shouldn’t be required of you.
 

Ultimately the burden may stay with you to keep reaching out to maintain the sibling relationship. Only you can make the decision whether doing so is worth the cost. I wish you the best. I’m so glad you have a supportive partner. 

 

On 5/13/2025 at 4:21 PM, let’s roll said:

Thanks for sharing.  A thought to consider…if there is a sibling that you think enjoys socializing with you and your partner, find ways to spend more time with them.  Since your understanding is that some of your siblings wanted you two to be invited to Florida, plan something with them.  No need to explicitly exclude the others, but no reason not to share time and grow closer to those who want to spend time and grow closer to you.  Best wishes.

 

On 5/13/2025 at 4:36 PM, Rain said:

Hugs.  This all has been so hard on you.   I hope you find some peace. 

I just want to thank you all for your words of love, encouragement and advice.  (sorry I didn't include each and everyone of you that replied.  I haven't figured out how to add quotes from multiple pages) But I just want you to know that I read every single one of your posts multiple times these past days and I appreciate so much this community that we have here.  It is very special.  Partly the reason I didn't respond quicker is I really needed to take some time and think about this.  I guess where I am right now is I believe the only behavior I can control is my own.  I will continue to live my life as I have been, with honesty and love.  Even if that love is something they can not accept.  It is still what brings me happiness and joy.  Their approval is never going to do that for me even if I tried to change my life to fit their expectations.  It is just too exhausting.  I tried that for many years.  It just depressed me and made me make decisions that were very wrong for me.  

So I guess I will continue as I have been doing for the past 25 years.  When invited to family activities, I will show up and try to show love to each and every one of my siblings.  But I probably won't initiate anything with those that really don't want me around. When I am excluded from family events, while it hurts, it is not nearly as big of hurt as it would be to give up everything about my life as it is.  I can live with that.

I know I have responded in a very personal and honest way.  But maybe in some way, it will help others to understand that pressuring your children into doing what might very well be right for you and your life is not always the best for them and their lives.  

Hugs to all of you, especially those that are struggling with this issue.