JVW

I think the point in which you speak your mind and intervene is the point at which you believe that they are hurting themselves or being stupid. Speaking the truth as you see it will always result in a good decision. And how many times have you heard someone say "I prefer people who are jerks but are straight up with me. I wish I knew what people really thought about me instead of pretending to be nice while gossiping about me behind my back." that sort of thing. The most loving way to treat people is to be honest with them. I read something in City Weekly 20 years ago that has always stuck with me. I don't know how true it is, but I like the idea behind it. The greek word for meekness was praus which was also the word used to describe a warhorse. The warhorse represented an incredible amount of power kept under rigorous control. In our church we believe that we contain God's authority and power. Having the power of God is very risky because power corrupts. This is where meekness comes in and why God has such strict requirements in order to enter covenants with Him. If we can't prove that we are meek, then gaining power will hurt us instead of help. And if we aren't meek, then that's where the condescending attitude comes in that puts people off. Also, Penn of Penn and Teller is an arrogant jerk (he is prideful, which is whatever, but I wouldn't want him as my neighbor). I think he is a fantastic entertainer, and they've performed some of the best magic that I've ever seen. But dude's comment about people trying to help him save his soul is anti-Christ, because He was literally describing what Christ spends every waking moment doing to help each of us.

Here's how I have it worked out, and it works pretty well for me. My beliefs are the best beliefs, they are better than everyone else's. If they weren't then I would believe something else. I think everyone believes that what they believe is the best, because if they didn't, or they believed that their beliefs were equal to someone else, then they would be flip-flopping often about what they choose to believe and their life would lack stability. We will all default to using our best judgment about what we think is best, and all feel like we make the best decisions and the best choices about what to believe. Keeping that in mind, here is the flipside that leads me to be tolerant. We all deserve to go to hell. We all suck. We're all full of crap. The line that determines good and evil runs through the center of every human heart. And nobody has any idea what's going on (this last point is especially easy to believe as a parent). So I may think that my beliefs are the best beliefs, but that doesn't mean that I'm better than you. Regardless of what someone believes we are all going to hell and/or many of us already live there. And we all have a bunch of self-deception piled on internally that's getting in the way of our own happiness. I promise I'm a cheerful kind of guy offline. I am so offended right now!

The thing that needs to be removed from the conversation is fear. LDS members need to lose their fear of feeling like they'll be going to hell forever if they join another church, and Christians need to let go of their fear of reading other scriptures besides the Bible. Love him or hate him, Pastor Jeff of Hello Saints has moved past the fear. I don't doubt that he has a deep seeded patronizing view of us and hopes to save as many LDS as he can, but dude has read the Book of Mormon and attended General Conference. He's secure in his faith, not afraid, and is super friendly to our community. But something that is interesting to think about is how I would behave if someone I loved joined an actual cult? I would probably have the same feelings "I know better than you do. What you're doing is dangerous and will hurt you. Please come back." that sort of thing. But I wouldn't have control over their decisions, and in many cases the harder I would push the more resistance I would be met with. I wouldn't feel like I was being patronizing. But I would be aching with worry and praying a lot for God to help them snap out of their brainwashing. However, unlike my Christian brothers, I wouldn't cite Bible passages to threaten my loved one. And I would be willing to attend their cult meetings and meet the leadership there in order to better understand, and equip myself against, the dangers presented by my loved one's situation. Yet it could be said that I was being patronizing and insincere in my desire to understand their cult group.

I will say this. If people told me I was part of a church that was playing pretend I'd prefer that much more than "your church is a cult, you preach a different gospel, and you're going to hell". What others may describe as a condescending or equal attitude from the LDS church I would describe as "your church is probably helping you, but we can help you more". Which is an entirely different tone. As far as other churches go I think there is a distinction to be made between the ones attending, and the ones running it at various levels. Any person, anywhere in the world, who is humble, penitent, worshipful, seeking truth, etc. Can be aided by any sort of organization encouraging them to read from sacred texts, even texts that are not the Holy Bible. The more a text ventures into the realm of trying to encourage devotion to deity the more easy it will be for the sincere seeker of truth to gain something from it, in my opinion. So if I told someone "you are playing pretend" then that is very inappropriate and offensive. If I told someone, "your church is playing pretend, you may want to consider one that's taking things more seriously." That's a different conversation to have. If you haven't checked out the YT channel Atheist Church Audit, I think now's a good time to direct your attention there. He's called out many churches for playing pretend, but has never criticized any believers, just the pastors. See this video as an example. But that isn't to say that everyone leading the church is as equally pure, and the intentions of the leaders can kneecap the worshippers in their own personal faith journey. Church is a big business. It's so big that even Blackrock is involved in it. Prosperity Gospel runs rampant. Spreading fear in order to motivate attendance is common. And spreading prejudice against other sects in order to preserve one's own flock is very common. Even Protestantism has infighting because of this. Why is the LDS so nice to other churches? Because we aren't scared of them. I can read any religious text I want, and if I like it better than the Book of Mormon I can leave. I know how to pray about things and work stuff out with God. I think the LDS have this openness because we've already broken the taboo of having additional scripture.

Thanks for sharing this. I've already started reading it. Already I'm having some questions so the book is helping me develop my critical thinking.

I have never read, or heard, of any member make disparaging remarks about anyone who is not of our faith, or anyone who has left our faith. I'm sure there have been cases of that, but I haven't seen it. I know there are people in the church who may feel like ex-members are going to hell, who may judge and assume they left because they wanted to break God's commandments without feeling bad, or who may view ex-members out of pity. I know of many who have a lot of anxiety around trying to help people learn about the church because they are worried about their souls. People have a lot of these feelings whether it's related to the church or not, about a lot of different aspects of life. If you're not part of the club that someone is passionate about then you want them to be part of the club. With all that being said, even if the conference talk was overtly talking about those who've left the church as being only worth "firewood" if they aren't replanted in the church, that really ... isn't a very offensive analogy. If someone came up to me at work and was chewing me out for not being as passionate about my career anymore and made that comparison to me, I would be hard pressed to be offended enough to go to HR about it, as an example. But I will say this. Christians are nasty to LDS. So nasty. Some denominations are better than others, but when it comes to displaying kindness I think the LDS church members are probably the kindest on a general level, when engaging with others in society around sensitive topics. Whether their motivation is to save someone from hell, or to try to get their brownie points in heaven, or they're being secretly judgmental and just ticking off a box, or it's out of Christlike charity. Regardless of the motivation, LDS are super nice and gentle in conversations with other Christians or ex-members while the entire conversation goes "You believe in a different Jesus. You're part of a cult. There is no God and you're an idiot. Joseph was a liar. How dare you assume that I was a sinner before I left the faith. Etc." I say all this to just bring a temperature check. I don't feel like this topic is necessarily about how LDS can be nicer to people. I think it's more like "how can we, as members, be more Christlike".

I'm considering having a passover meal as dinner on Easter sunday. idk when passover actually is and I didn't start considering it until after the week before it started so I'm not going to get rid of yeast in my house this year.

What doctrines are you referring to? Original Sin? Creationism?

I'm curious about whether Catholics regard the canon as closed with the Bible. Is the pope regarded like how a prophet is and are his words regarded as scripture? Does the Catholic church have additional text that they regard as being the word of God besides the Bible?

I just read this in a passover guide written by OneForIsrael. I thought this little speech was very interesting as it implies that God actually uses apostasies as a tool to build His people. KARPAS (PARSLEY) AND MA’IM MEH-LUCHIM (SALT WATER) (Leader holds up a piece of parsley.) LEADER: This represents life, and the produce of the earth that gives us life. A vegetable begins its life as a seed planted in the ground, then it sprouts and grows until ready for the harvest. This is a beautiful picture of the nation of Israel. When she was just a “seed”—a tiny group of 70 people—God brought her to Egypt where He planted her; there she grew. When God brought her out of egypt, she was a nation 2 million people strong. However, life is not always sweet. So, we dip this parsley into salt water as a reminder of the tears that were shed by the slaves in Egypt (and which many of us shed through our own struggles in life). The salt water can also represent the salty water of the Red Sea that God parted and allowed His people to pass through on dry ground to safety. To your question. Why did God plant the seed of Israel in Egypt and raise them as slaves in a heathen nation? Why not just leave them where Jacob lived and let them multiply there, in freedom? All of the seeds of the restoration were planted in historical Christianity. God performed many mighty miracles during the Great Apostasy and raised up some mighty men who accomplished miraculous things through their faith in Jesus Christ.

Thanks for keeping us all in the loop. I really have enjoyed following this saga and I'm inspired by how plugged in you are as a citizen in your community.

I would say that this has happened to me many times. The most obvious example of this in my life is the time that God told me to "forgive the government". I had never before considered the possibility of a group of people needing forgiveness, and I would argue that "the government" is more like a nebulous entity that is widely open for interpretation on what it means. Even more surprising to me was considering the thought of forgiving "someone" with whom I don't have a choice of being in a relationship with, who I will be in a relationship with the rest of my life, and who perpetually abuses me with taxes on taxes on taxes. In addition to that, because the idea had never occurred to me, I had no idea how to forgive "someone" who didn't even know I exists, didn't know how they were hurting me, and would never apologize. So ... yeah ... even without going into "how did I know this was from God" which I'm not going to go into here, the context of the situation and where my mind was definitely indicates that the source of the idea was not internal.

Oh actually, now that I think about it. I think there was a scandal with Elder Uchtdorf when some of his kids or someone took a bunch of his money and donated it into politics and people found out about it and thought that he was donating to politics. It was like a million dollars or something. I also think some people got all butthurt once cause he was wearing a really expensive watch. ... but I'm pretty sure all of the Apostles wear super nice suits and watches and stuff because they're missionaries to kings and high end world government officials.

It could flip though, like a coin.

Yes, and I'll be the last one laughing in 2045. I started a thread awhile back asking about this rumor, maybe 6 months ago? I don't think it's a real thing that is being piloted. The closest I've read is someone saying "someone I know knows someone who..."