Advice on a recent family experience

[california boy]

I know that quite a few of you know my struggles with my family over the years.  For 13 years they wanted nothing to do with me.  Never invited to a baptism or ordination, or family reunion, or family dinner.  Nothing.  That all changed when my father finally met my partner.  It seemed like he was giving permission for my siblings to have some kind of relationship with me.  And for the past number of years, I have been invited to family events.  Sadly my father passed away at 100.  

Recently my siblings organized a sibling/spouse trip to Florida.  They rented a. big house and all stayed together for a week doing various activities around the area.  Every single sibling and their spouses went.  I was not invited, nor was my partner.  Some, not all, really objected to me being included.  Now I know that these past 10 years that I have been invited to family events, there were some who really didn't want me there.  

So knowing that not all my siblings want me around, I feel like I don't really want to go to family events.  I am exhausted trying to make them happy.  I really can't live my life trying to make other people happy with who they want me to be rather than who I actually am.  And I have plenty of friends in my life who actually like me the way I am.  They aren't looking for me to change before they can have me a part of their lives.

Maybe my situation will help others see how we on the outside feel.  Maybe you have some suggestions on how I should handle my siblings.  Cause I got no more answers to that question,.

 

[MustardSeed]

5 minutes ago, california boy said:

I know that quite a few of you know my struggles with my family over the years.  For 13 years they wanted nothing to do with me.  Never invited to a baptism or ordination, or family reunion, or family dinner.  Nothing.  That all changed when my father finally met my partner.  It seemed like he was giving permission for my siblings to have some kind of relationship with me.  And for the past number of years, I have been invited to family events.  Sadly my father passed away at 100.  

Recently my siblings organized a sibling/spouse trip to Florida.  They rented a. big house and all stayed together for a week doing various activities around the area.  Every single sibling and their spouses went.  I was not invited, nor was my partner.  Some, not all, really objected to me being included.  Now I know that these past 10 years that I have been invited to family events, there were some who really didn't want me there.  

So knowing that not all my siblings want me around, I feel like I don't really want to go to family events.  I am exhausted trying to make them happy.  I really can't live my life trying to make other people happy with who they want me to be rather than who I actually am.  And I have plenty of friends in my life who actually like me the way I am.  They aren't looking for me to change before they can have me a part of their lives.

Maybe my situation will help others see how we on the outside feel.  Maybe you have some suggestions on how I should handle my siblings.  Cause I got no more answers to that question,.

 

I’m so sad. You’re welcome to join my family at the beach in July- Hilton Head.   You would fit right in with us. 

[Chum]

6 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

How much of what they are saying comes from what we are doing and saying, and how much is their own perceptions or interpretations based on their situation.

We faithful tend to interject our perspective into the ordinary. We can be unmindful of perspectives that aren't LDS or Protestant or Christian or Theist or Supernatural.  Based on your daughters' reactions, I suspect your LDSness is pervasive in a way that it constantly highlights itself. If this is so, it will color your relationship with your kids. Your faith would be a presence that they continually have to process when they interact with you.  If their feelings aren't positive then it's a lot to process. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

7 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

• Is it wrong that we ask them not to drink in our home - we don't care or comment if they drink at restaurants or at home when we are present? (The girls said they are upset they can't have a glass of wine at Thanksgiving dinner etc.)

•  

 

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Why gift them a BOM?   That kind of seems like giving a vegetarian a steak dinner, a Jewish person a beautiful cross necklace, or an ex-member giving a bottle of wine to their active latter-day saint parents.

I do think this juxtaposition is revealing. OP is “gifting” religious art and testimony for their kids to take to their homes but draws a firm line at alcohol consumption in their own home??

[Buckeye]

14 minutes ago, california boy said:

I know that quite a few of you know my struggles with my family over the years.  For 13 years they wanted nothing to do with me.  Never invited to a baptism or ordination, or family reunion, or family dinner.  Nothing.  That all changed when my father finally met my partner.  It seemed like he was giving permission for my siblings to have some kind of relationship with me.  And for the past number of years, I have been invited to family events.  Sadly my father passed away at 100.  

Recently my siblings organized a sibling/spouse trip to Florida.  They rented a. big house and all stayed together for a week doing various activities around the area.  Every single sibling and their spouses went.  I was not invited, nor was my partner.  Some, not all, really objected to me being included.  Now I know that these past 10 years that I have been invited to family events, there were some who really didn't want me there.  

So knowing that not all my siblings want me around, I feel like I don't really want to go to family events.  I am exhausted trying to make them happy.  I really can't live my life trying to make other people happy with who they want me to be rather than who I actually am.  And I have plenty of friends in my life who actually like me the way I am.  They aren't looking for me to change before they can have me a part of their lives.

Maybe my situation will help others see how we on the outside feel.  Maybe you have some suggestions on how I should handle my siblings.  Cause I got no more answers to that question,.

 

This is really rough. I’m sorry you’re still being excluded. Have you asked your supportive siblings for their thoughts? They likely know the answer even if it’s not pleasant.
 

Consider counseling with the supportive siblings on how to include you. It sounds like they’ve found ways to include you in other settings. If the issue here is concern by some with sleeping in the same house with a same sex couple, could there be a resolution where your partnership (and maybe supportive siblings) stay in an adjacent home? I know that’s not ideal and shouldn’t be required of you.
 

Ultimately the burden may stay with you to keep reaching out to maintain the sibling relationship. Only you can make the decision whether doing so is worth the cost. I wish you the best. I’m so glad you have a supportive partner. 

[Chum]

7 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

How can we be better as parents in making them feel loved (other than never talking about our faith)?

Talk. Find ways to meet them on their terms.

Dialing back expressions of faith gets demonized (by us) a lot. But kids need to know that they can be first, when they need to be. The more they know they have that,  the less they'll need it.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, manol said:

you and your wife genuinely accept your kids and their life decisions without judgment and without conditions or agendas (hidden or not-so-hidden), I think that will naturally come through without your needing to carefully pick and choose your behavior towards them.

Speaking from experience, even if this is one’s choice and a wholehearted choice, if one has ever felt disappointed or sorrowful in the past, that feeling still exists within because at the very least you still have the ‘person’, the mindset that made those judgments as a memory and memories get revisited in familiar settings.  So your face might end up looking disappointed when all you are doing is remembering when you felt disappointed in the past.  We are also not one dimensional personalities and we can even feel contradictory feelings (love/hate) at the same time.  It’s the dominant feeling, the one we choose to nurture that matters the most to us, but that doesn’t mean our loved ones won’t pick up signs of those other old or less dominant feelings we might not want to have. 

Depending on circumstances and relationships, it might be helpful to be honest and ask for understanding on their part by explaining to our children that it was true in the past when we didn’t have as good of an understanding of them and their desires and needs or the way they thought about things, especially their own life, that we felt disappointment, etc and sometimes the memory of those feelings pop up again just like one can remember something we said in similar situations, but remembering an emotion is not the same as nurturing it, even if it might look the same on our faces for a time.  We don’t easily forget emotions, especially negative ones, even when our response will no longer be that emotion.***

And if it’s not true that it’s in the past and we still feel disappointed, then hopefully children will be able to accept that if we are open that we are trying to do better at not imposing our ideas of what life should be like on our children (or anyone else) because we realize they are not extensions of ourselves and they are not there to fulfill the dreams we have, but their own dreams and for that they need to find their own way.  And if we can honestly say we trust that they will find the right destination for them even if we lack the ability to see how that will happen and we won’t stop trying to understand their choices rather than judge them as wrong, our children can accept that even if we aren’t there yet we are trying and intend to keep trying.

Though saying these things if one is not actually invested in them will backfire imo.  You have to actually deeply mean it.  Just apologizing or trying to smooth the waters without investing in trying to understand is a message that you don’t care that much about them as an individual and instead are just trying to avoid conflict, imo.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/science-choice/201510/why-do-we-remember-certain-things-forget-others

***As a more concrete example….

I can remember as a kid gagging on any kind of bean (except green beans which was a neutral) and even though I actually like black beans now, when I anticipate eating blacks beans, sometimes it feels like I am going to gag again until I actually taste them and enjoyment replaces the memory.  The remembered negative emotion is more ‘felt’ than my current knowledge or positive emotion towards them (it’s a minor like vs a massive repugnance).  I know my face at times may show a bit of that old disgust because seeing beans often triggers a walk down memory lane into that very strong memory (thankfully they rarely cooked such and did not push me to eat them, I think the fact I threw up one time my dad did insist I eat the canned pork and beans he had cooked probably helped there).  If anyone used my facial expressions to judge my current opinion of black or refried beans, they have a good chance of getting it wrong.

Otoh, if one presents me with a plate of canned pork and beans these days, it’s no longer a memory of disgust, but pure repugnance on my face to be clearly read I am guessing.  Thankfully it’s been decades since my control of my facial muscles have been tested in this fashion though it’s come close with homemade baked beans or pork and beans a few times (mostly at family or ward gatherings which are self serve or I can at least dump the paper plate without anyone commenting on not clearing it off completely, thank goodness, one of the perks of being an adult).

Edited May 13, 2025 by Calm

[let’s roll]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

As a non-believer, can I ask why you thought this would be an appropriate gift? Or why you are calling it a gift? My parents (who are as devout as its possible to be), watched my kids while my wife and I went to Spain for business / pleasure. We bought them a hand made expensive nativity music box as a gift and thank you. I want nothing to do with Christianity, but they love it. So I bought it and gave it to them. As a gift. My parents on the other hand routinely gave me nativity ornaments, Christian children books etc (I'm using the past tense here because I'm currently taking a break from them!). Are these "gifts" or not so subtle attempts to fulfill their missionary obligations as taught by your church? Are they attempting to manipulate me (I'm sure they would say hoping that the spirit moves me)? I sure think so. A gift should be something that the giver wants and appreciates. Not an attempt to manipulate. 

There is wisdom here.  Thanks for your insight.  As the giver of a gift recognizing the importance of the need for the receiver to value the gift, I might have said something like…my dear children, you know how I use my art for both self expression and as expressions of my love.  I’m giving you this art which was created with the love you have given me since your birth in mind in an effort to return that love so you will always have a part of me with you, even after I’m gone, and hope you will think of me and how much I love you each time you see it.

As the receiver of the art I hope I would recognize the love and effort that went into the creation of the art, take at face value the words and sentiments of the artist and let those thoughts and feelings outweigh any discomfort about the religious context of the art.

[let’s roll]

51 minutes ago, california boy said:

I know that quite a few of you know my struggles with my family over the years.  For 13 years they wanted nothing to do with me.  Never invited to a baptism or ordination, or family reunion, or family dinner.  Nothing.  That all changed when my father finally met my partner.  It seemed like he was giving permission for my siblings to have some kind of relationship with me.  And for the past number of years, I have been invited to family events.  Sadly my father passed away at 100.  

Recently my siblings organized a sibling/spouse trip to Florida.  They rented a. big house and all stayed together for a week doing various activities around the area.  Every single sibling and their spouses went.  I was not invited, nor was my partner.  Some, not all, really objected to me being included.  Now I know that these past 10 years that I have been invited to family events, there were some who really didn't want me there.  

So knowing that not all my siblings want me around, I feel like I don't really want to go to family events.  I am exhausted trying to make them happy.  I really can't live my life trying to make other people happy with who they want me to be rather than who I actually am.  And I have plenty of friends in my life who actually like me the way I am.  They aren't looking for me to change before they can have me a part of their lives.

Maybe my situation will help others see how we on the outside feel.  Maybe you have some suggestions on how I should handle my siblings.  Cause I got no more answers to that question,.

 

Thanks for sharing.  A thought to consider…if there is a sibling that you think enjoys socializing with you and your partner, find ways to spend more time with them.  Since your understanding is that some of your siblings wanted you two to be invited to Florida, plan something with them.  No need to explicitly exclude the others, but no reason not to share time and grow closer to those who want to spend time and grow closer to you.  Best wishes.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I know that quite a few of you know my struggles with my family over the years.  For 13 years they wanted nothing to do with me.  Never invited to a baptism or ordination, or family reunion, or family dinner.  Nothing.  That all changed when my father finally met my partner.  It seemed like he was giving permission for my siblings to have some kind of relationship with me.  And for the past number of years, I have been invited to family events.  Sadly my father passed away at 100.  

Recently my siblings organized a sibling/spouse trip to Florida.  They rented a. big house and all stayed together for a week doing various activities around the area.  Every single sibling and their spouses went.  I was not invited, nor was my partner.  Some, not all, really objected to me being included.  Now I know that these past 10 years that I have been invited to family events, there were some who really didn't want me there.  

So knowing that not all my siblings want me around, I feel like I don't really want to go to family events.  I am exhausted trying to make them happy.  I really can't live my life trying to make other people happy with who they want me to be rather than who I actually am.  And I have plenty of friends in my life who actually like me the way I am.  They aren't looking for me to change before they can have me a part of their lives.

Maybe my situation will help others see how we on the outside feel.  Maybe you have some suggestions on how I should handle my siblings.  Cause I got no more answers to that question,.

 

Hugs.  This all has been so hard on you.   I hope you find some peace. 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

(in one ward I was a member of, the topic of all the talks one Father's day was pornagraphy, and though it was a really weird/inappropriate topic for that day in my opinion--which was mentioned by a few men my husband and I were friends with--none seemed to be angered or destroyed by it.  If the talks on Mother's Day were ever on a sin that women struggled with, the responses by the women would not have been similar)

I think part of the difference is men in general (I know some exceptions) are better able typically to ignore criticism or at least not rate it as so important ***, but also they are typically ‘better’ (based on personal experience, I may be wrong) at not expressing verbally hurt or discomfort (it’s not actually a good thing, imo, in many cases, to ignore such feelings) than women.  What I would like to see is faces when first hearing criticism rather than self reports as they may downplay their reactions (and the downplaying level is what they will remember later on in many cases rather than the at the moment experience imo based on my personal experience plus studies on how memory works in general).  This is an interesting study that suggest men are not as good at controlling expression of negative feelings as they think they are.

https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation?paperid=133875

Quote

For both the suppress face and the suppress thoughts and face groups, men believed they were better at suppressing their faces for sad videos than women. However, there were no actual differences in the sad facial displays of men and women in any of the groups. Men were not more likely to suppress emotion overall than women when instructed to do so, or when not instructed to do so. It also appears that men have a particularly difficult time suppressing emotions when they are explicitly told to suppress both their thoughts and their faces. These findings suggest that self-report measures of suppression may not be the most accurate.

***women are more concerned with relationships in the American culture while men are pushed to be more independent.  This may lead to less internalization of criticism by men, but reactions are highly dependent on the context of the criticism and what type of criticism it is. 

 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8663792/#:~:text=Moreover%2C perceptions of non-hostile,differently for men and women.

The focus on relationships is less differentiated in collectivist cultures, btw.

https://stockton.edu/social-behavioral-sciences/documents/yang1.pdf

Edited May 14, 2025 by Calm

[Calm]

3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

It's fine if you want to believe this. But this belief will have consequences in your relationships. Assuming bad faith on those you interact with, especially those close to you is a quick way to end said relationships.

This.  Assuming people really know there is a God and are intentionally or unintentionally suppressing that knowledge or even not suppressing, but lying about their own beliefs for whatever reason is going to have a massive effect, imo, on our decisions on how to deal with someone as well as what we feel about them and those feelings are not going to be hidden from someone who knows you well, like children and spouses.

While I believe the Light of Christ is there for everyone, I don’t believe that everyone can automatically feel it (I know I lost it for several years due to medication) or understand what it is when they do feel it (I believe people are taught how to interpret feelings and sensations, even love, and some may for some reason attach the wrong interpretation onto their experience of the Light of Christ, often through no fault of their own).  If they don’t understand what they feel, how can they truly know something from that feeling?

PS:  I think parents are less likely to know children as well as children know their parents because they may have expectations from even before the child is born on what that child will be like that may cause them to misinterpret behaviour or even see things that aren’t there and miss stuff that is.  Of course, kids aren’t privy to all their parents’ thoughts, but they are also usually purely dependent on parents for their existence, so I think they are likely better at picking up on personality and predicting of behaviour, though they may not understand the reason behind it.  There is also the issue of both reacting to older versions of the individual they are more familiar with rather than really investing in figuring out what the individual is like currently.  There is also likely to be less change in the parent since they are first encountered as adults than there is in adult children from when they first ‘met’ their parents.  Parents typically have a lot less opportunity to see their children’s behaviour as adults than children have had even if those views are limited to home life (they will likely have seen their parents react to highs and lows at work and play and everything in between during the time they live at home).  Unless an adult child lives with their parent, the reverse isn’t true.

I also think both parents and adult children don’t know each other as well as they think they do.

This is personal speculation based on observation with some stuff thrown in from research over the years that I don’t have sources for.

Edited May 14, 2025 by Calm

[Autonomous]

10 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

 

Hopefully I can write this in a way that makes sense.I feel there is a lot of nuance here that could be lost, but I am hoping I can convey it enough for some helpful feedback.

I especially am interested in the perspective of non-active and/or ex-members. I would ask in the mormon reddit because I know there are many there, but they tend to be the ones who react with spite rather than kindness. I know there are those here that have great insights and tend the respond in a kinder way.

I have 6 adult children. All of them are disaffiliated with the Church to some extent. 3 are mine by birth, and three are my wife's, since we are a blended family. We married when the kids were between 6-14 years old. Both of their other birth parents are very vocally against the LDS faith.

Recently, my wife, sho is an artist, wanted to paint Books of Mormon with her art, and give them as gifts to each of our kids. I wrote my testimony in the ones that went to my birth kiddos, and she to hers. My testimony in each one stated that I loved my kids for the good people they are, and that I respect the paths they choose on their own journeys. I also testified that my strength in hard times comes from Jesus and told them that my belief was that if they ever needed to search for help in struggles, they could always turn to my, and to God. Then re-affirmed that I respected them regardless of if they ever feel that way or not. I believe my wife's testimony was similar.

My children all accepted the gift. My wife's oldest (who is just now at 33 trying to get sober and has always been very opposed to the church) said he would accept the book with an open heart.

Her two daughters, however got very upset and said they would not take the book - then went off on how much 'religious trauma' they have and how poorly they felt they were treated in the church, and how dumb the word of wisdom is, and most hurtfully, how 'greasy' and judged they feel when they come to our home. When my wife asked for examples of what makes them feel that way - they said they didn't have any, they just said things like 'the way you look at us like you are disappointed.' or, 'The way we can hear in your voice that you disapprove of us and think we would be better people if we were in the church." and similar things. My wife was relieved they finally talked about it, but understandably hurt and sad that her daughters feel that way. She is now searching very hard to see what she can do better.

Because of this reaction I reached out to my three kids and asked them to honestly tell me if they ever feel judged by me, and if the BOM we ge them was offensive, and how I can be better in making them feel loved and accepted. My two sons both enthusiastically told me that they never feel judged by me, they know I love and accept them, and they know my testimony comes from an honest place and not out of judgement. yay!

My youngest, a girl, like her sisters, said that while she could not think of specific examples either, that 'it’s just little comments, and i don’t even know if you realize you’re making them.. but like, bringing the aspect of god or religion into a lot of conversations in some way, like i know you probably don’t do that on purpose at all but it can sometimes feel like it’s kinda… passive aggressive i guess if that’s the right word? like it feels like a “i attribute everything to god so you should too” kind of thing?'

So my questions, especially for those who might be in the amenities boat as my (adult) kids are:

1. How much of what they are saying comes from what we are doing and saying, and how much is their own perceptions or interpretations based on their situation.

2. How can we be better as parents in making them feel loved (other than never talking about our faith)?

3. Is it wrong that we ask them not to drink in our home - we don't care or comment if they drink at restaurants or at home when we are present? (The girls said they are upset they can't have a glass of wine at Thanksgiving dinner etc.)

4. Any idea why it's the girls who are upset with us, while the boys seem less so?

Any other insights are welcome, and if you have read this far in this voluminous post - thank you!

We love our kids and want to do all we can to allow them and us to be our full selves around each other,

Ex-member here.  My parents are JWish, in-laws are Mormons, I have left both of these religious groups - so perspective from multiple demanding religious groups.

Walk a mile in their shoes - 

Imagine, if you can, that your parents/kids/loved ones are devout members of... Heaven's Gate / polygamous offshoot / Sunni Islam  - imagine a religious group you very much disagree with, feel is unhealthy for them, is oppressive and wrong on many levels.  If you have not experienced having a close family member in a different extremist religious faith this exercise might be difficult for you.  By extremist faith - I mean, the walls of their home are covered in pictures reflecting their beliefs, their clothes, their food, proselytizing tracts on every table, and their lives are so wrapped up in their religious beliefs that they have nothing else to talk about except what they have been doing at and for their religious group.  

I'll use the BITE model:

• Behavior: from morning prayers and scripture study, to meals and dress, this beloved family member spends all day following strict rules - perhaps gender rules (imagine your daughter bowing down wearing a black hijab cowering, obeying husband, not allowed to work or do anything without approval - I know this is extreme, but please understand that your own views are seen as extreme by others.  No one thinks their own views are extreme....  imagine your daughter in a male hierarchy - she is not allowed to question, she is helper, server, a doormat - and imagine your sons acting in authoritarian manner, always calling shots, prideful, ordering women around, etc.  it might be "polite" but you clearly see chain of command, who is able to think and command, and who in family has to obey quickly without question.)
• Information:  They have not watched movies, TV shows, news stations that are not in-line with their own religious view.  You cannot have a conversation with them about anything outside the *approved* information from their religious group.  They do not understand current events, do not understand politics, cannot comment on simple things like fashion trends or music groups or local restaurants because their religious beliefs prevent them from listening to / reading / watching anything that disagrees with the religious views.  
• Thought control:  Anything - music, dress - food - culture - anything that does not conform to the religious group is foreign, looked down on, critiqued... image talking to someone with really different political views if different religion is difficult - imagine their face expressions around anything that does not conform to their beliefs.
• Emotion: Love-bombing, guilt, fear - I fear we will not be together forever - little sad face expressions, they do not see you going to heaven with them, grooming - showing affection not because they love you, but because they have been taught that love-grooming is a way to try and manipulate someone into their belief system.  Fake compliments, nervous smiles, overly sappy *trained* love techniques there as pretentious virtue signaling - "see how loving I am? how kind I am?" - when they are putting on a theatrical show to demonstrate how *amazing* their belief system is.
• Imagine you are there when they get a phone call from someone in their Muslim/polygamous/heaven's gate cult - you watch them get the phone call, see their face light up - how excited they are to talk with *one of their own*, you know they have never loved you, they only love their own belief system, you will never be one of their *tribe*, you are not really part of their family, not *covenant bond* - they are not bonded to you (this is not just a Mormon thing, JW - you are not *called* etc..  They only really love those in their group - you can hear it in their voice, see it on their face.  You feel their guarded conversations around you, like talking with a stranger you know disagrees with you, guarded conversations - that is all you get, not genuine connected - like you see when they interact with others in their group.

Try to walk a mile in their shoes.

Have you seriously read any other scripture outside your own?  If you are set in your beliefs, would you appreciate manipulative religious *gifts* from someone trying to convert you to their belief system?  Do you believe them when they say something like *they respect your belief* - you know that is not real.

 

The unaffiliated are the only people I have seen who have healthy relationships.  Religious people only love their religion, only love people as much as they conform to the religious group (no matter JW, Mormon, Muslim, Jew) ... Until you have left a group, you cannot see or understand what it is like... 

 

Plato's cave.  

They will not be close to you, and visa versa.  Plato's cave.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2025 by Autonomous

[bluebell]

13 hours ago, Autonomous said:

 

 

The unaffiliated are the only people I have seen who have healthy relationships.  Religious people only love their religion, only love people as much as they conform to the religious group (no matter JW, Mormon, Muslim, Jew) ... Until you have left a group, you cannot see or understand what it is like... 

 

 

 

I struggle with this idea. I have a friend who is ex-mormon, not at all religious, and very liberal, and she won't be friends with anyone who supported Trump, for example.  I have another friend (not a close friend, facebook only) who told everyone in her friend group that if they didn't support SSM they needed to unfriend her right then.  She is also very anti-religious due to her upbringing in the Catholic church. 

Is it really only religious people who sometimes only love people as much as they conform to their beliefs?

[Rain]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I struggle with this idea. I have a friend who is ex-mormon, not at all religious, and very liberal, and she won't be friends with anyone who supported Trump, for example.  I have another friend (not a close friend, facebook only) who told everyone in her friend group that if they didn't support SSM they needed to unfriend her right then.  She is also very anti-religious due to her upbringing in the Catholic church. 

Is it really only religious people who sometimes only love people as much as they conform to their beliefs?

Nope.

 

Religious people can and do love other people.  They do it imperfectly...like everyone else does. Some will love better than others and it's good to learn from them how to do it better.

[bluebell]

35 minutes ago, Rain said:

Nope.

 

Religious people can and do love other people.  They do it imperfectly...like everyone else does. Some will love better than others and it's good to learn from them how to do it better.

Perfectly said.

[Amulek]

23 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

So my questions, especially for those who might be in the amenities boat as my (adult) kids are:

1. How much of what they are saying comes from what we are doing and saying, and how much is their own perceptions or interpretations based on their situation.

   • Hard to say. I have seen what I consider to be microaggressions before, but I have also seen what I have come to refer to as macro-sensitivities as well. The two axioms I try to live by on this front are: (1) Try not to offend; and (2) Try not to take offense. If your children know you are genuinely not trying to offend them, intentionally or otherwise, that will hopefully give them the space they need to begin not seeing every little thing as being a dig against them. 

2. How can we be better as parents in making them feel loved (other than never talking about our faith)?

   • This is a tough one. I think the best way to approach it is to work on making sure they understand you love them. Period. Not "I love you (despite your bad choices)," which is the unstated premise that sometimes gets read into that sentiment. 

3. Is it wrong that we ask them not to drink in our home - we don't care or comment if they drink at restaurants or at home when we are present? (The girls said they are upset they can't have a glass of wine at Thanksgiving dinner etc.)

   • I would ask them if they would like a slice of cheese to go with that whine. Or maybe just hand them my phone to dial whine-1-1 for a waambulance.  

   • For a more mature approach, I would just try to acknowledge their feelings and say something like, "Look, we understand this feels frustrating for you, especially when it’s just a single glass at a holiday meal. We’re not trying to judge or control your life - you are all grow-up adults, who we love - this is just something that matters to us in our home." 

4. Any idea why it's the girls who are upset with us, while the boys seem less so?

   • Your sons may be more able to compartmentalize your beliefs from their relationship with you (e.g., “Dad is religious, I’m not, and that’s fine"), whereas your daughters may feel more emotionally entangled in whether or not they feel fully seen or accepted the way they are. And they may sense a stronger hope or expectation (even if unstated) that they ought to come back to Church. 

   • Also, and I believe somebody else may have said something along these lines already, but girls and women are often socialized from a young age to be more emotionally attuned - both to themselves and to others - so they may be picking up on tone, subtext, or perceived pressure in a way your boys are not. And this emotional attunement also means they may carry emotional memory more deeply - feeling past hurts or discomfort even if they can’t pinpoint specific events.

 

[Autonomous]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I struggle with this idea. I have a friend who is ex-mormon, not at all religious, and very liberal, and she won't be friends with anyone who supported Trump, for example.  I have another friend (not a close friend, facebook only) who told everyone in her friend group that if they didn't support SSM they needed to unfriend her right then.  She is also very anti-religious due to her upbringing in the Catholic church. 

Is it really only religious people who sometimes only love people as much as they conform to their beliefs?

 

I should have said politically and religiously unaffiliated - independent.  The degree to which anyone is confident or certain in the belief of their group is the degree of their intolerance, and inability to be united with any other group or outsider.  There was a good quote from the movie Conclave - something like - Certainty in one group destroys unity and tolerance with others.  

 

I believe in Mormon theology, there is some kind of agreement members make about... bowing their heads and saying their president is "the only person on Earth" with authority kind of a thing?  Certainty in one person means not trusting or really listening to other people.  "Do you support or promote any teachings, practices, or doctrine contrary to those of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?" - not allowed to be united with anyone or anything outside of the group.  

 

Mormons are not the only ones like that, many different groups like loyal followers, reward rote obedience, which destroys the ability to form meaningful relationships with anyone outside the group.  Agreeing to only follow one person or one group, is an agreement to not listen to or follow anyone or anything else.  It gets worse - perceived close relationships within any of the groups isn't friendships between people, it is friendship to the organization.  You might think you have close friends in your church - until you question something - then you find what you thought was a close friendship was smoke and mirrors, people are loyal to group, love the group, not one another.  

 

Just animal instinct - herd instinct, herd mentality, groupthink, tribalism - a real psychological phenomenon to conform, follow, protect... lose yourself to find yourself???? no no - lose yourself to groupthink and you have also lost yourself.  Everyone easily sees groupthink in others, but has difficulty seeing it within ourselves, we want to belong, we want security, "not my group" - I think independently - I can have friends outside my group - haha - I don't believe it.  

 

Follow the crowd and lose your soul.  Follow your soul and lose the crowd.... but do not fear the process of isolation, for soon your soul tribe will appear :).  dependent/codependent - independent - autonomous - is the first step to having healthy family and friends.  I've experienced it all, in various different groups, outside of groups - different on the outside, different type of bond - not covenant bond, not promises to follow kind of bond, but a love of freedom, enjoyment of mystery, humble embracing of the unknown - not controlling, have to enjoy learning and digging into things that are different 

"You are only free when you realize you belong no place—you belong every place—no place at all."  - Maya Angelou

Edited May 14, 2025 by Autonomous

[MustardSeed]

I never got an answer to my question around agenda, so I’d like to answer today with my limited understanding of your motivations (which would shape my offering here) 

First, it’s important that I identify what MY motive is so if our motives don’t match you can take my offering for what it’s worth to you.

My motive is connection with my family members over all else.  I see the trend of being “cut off” and I’m sad about that because it’s avoidable IMO. 

 

I have three adult kids, one is a very involved member,  two are not at all.  Both my husband and I are, callings, cards, the whole deal. I would describe us a being very close and happy as a family. As far as I know, there are no complaints about pressure and everyone feels emotionally safe enough to be appropriately open and to desire each other‘s company. 
 

The reason for this is I believe goes way back- our philosophy and parenting has always been “get out of the way,” allow them to “do dangerous things safely” , and emphasize leadership skills over parent involvement.  IMO this is built confidence in themselves and has helped them to trust that we trust them to make decisions for themselves. 
And we honestly do.

(I have rewritten this three times- it always gets too long.)

I will just skip to answering each question hopefully briefly.
 

1. without question it’s a little bit of both. Trust that you have work to do to mend this, and eliminate the need to figure out their hang ups. You don’t have control over them. You can make a change by just changing yourself (if your motive can allow for that.)

2. Find new ways to talk about your faith if that’s a requirement for you. Be honest with yourself about your motive. If you need them to change, they will pick up on that and will not feel safe.

If you believe you need to please God by expecting your kids to change, then that is your choice and it will have an impact on your relationship with your kids. Hard choice isn’t it? I will share with you that I don’t believe I need to please God by hoping my kids will become members of the LDS church. I trust God that my good children will be taken care of, as will I if I do my best to keep the commandments and love God.   It’s hard because throughout my life, I have been given the Messaging that says I won’t have my family the way I would otherwise.  98% of the time I can tell myself that such Messaging is damaging and I reject the premise. 

(I want to tell a story that explains this, but I’m gonna keep it short)

3. You’re not required to have anything in your home that you don’t want to have. There will be consequences for that as well.

I can insist that everybody wears a clown suit on Thursdays in my house. That’s my right as a homeowner. Other adult adults get to choose if they don’t want to come around on Thursdays.  I have to live with that.  
 

At my house, I have a coffee maker. I have a lot of guests in my home who drink coffee. They know that I’ve never tasted it. They appreciate the convenience of not having to drive 20 minutes to the nearest coffee stand. No skin off my nose at all to provide a normal basic human experience. 
I never buy alcohol and my kids know I never want to see them intoxicated. But I do want them to share their stories with me. I make it safe for them to do that.
 

4. Girls are more sensitive. We love it and we don’t.  We can’t have it both ways, insisting that girls are sensitive and nurturing in the ways that benefit us but shutting it down when meeting their own sensitive needs is inconvenient for us. Boys can be quite conflict avoidant family members. There’s pros and cons to both ways. 
 

I am a wildly imperfect parent. There are a lot of things that I do incorrectly. My past is riddled with flaws.  That said, I believe I do know how to foster trust with our adult kids.  
 

1 . my ideals are not theirs.  I need to get out of their way. If they want my help, they will ask. 
 

2. The older I get the more apparent to me that I know very little. Best to stay curious about the changing world and be open to learning from my kids. They have a better pulse on a large section of society than I do anyway.

3. Do I want to be right, or do I want to be connected?

4.  Hold my boundaries, but stay in my own lane. Holding boundary has nothing to do with what anybody else is doing. It only has what I am doing and what I will allow for me to be exposed to. 
 

5. Two people will experience the same event very differently. Work to be less defensive if somebody else’s narrative is different than mine of the same event. Be curious instead. 
 

6. The kids will turn out completely differently from what I imagined. (Thank goodness) - enjoy the ride.  
 

These philosophies work well for me. You will not see me offering religious texts as gifts, maga hats, gluten free recipe files or beachwear coverups  .  You will see me in a mumu taking pics of you in your bikini, telling you that I taught Sunday school today, listening to you tell me about the party you attended last night. I’ll be eating my cottage cheese while you enjoy your steak and we will all hopefully walk away feeling seen and loved. 


 

 

Edited May 14, 2025 by MustardSeed

[Rain]

41 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I never got an answer to my question around agenda, so I’d like to answer today with my limited understanding of your motivations (which would shape my offering here) 

First, it’s important that I identify what MY motive is so if our motives don’t match you can take my offering for what it’s worth to you.

My motive is connection with my family members over all else.  I see the trend of being “cut off” and I’m sad about that because it’s avoidable IMO. 

 

I have three adult kids, one is a very involved member,  two are not at all.  Both my husband and I are, callings, cards, the whole deal. I would describe us a being very close and happy as a family. As far as I know, there are no complaints about pressure and everyone feels emotionally safe enough to be appropriately open and to desire each other‘s company. 
 

The reason for this is I believe goes way back- our philosophy and parenting has always been “get out of the way,” allow them to “do dangerous things safely” , and emphasize leadership skills over parent involvement.  IMO this is built confidence in themselves and has helped them to trust that we trust them to make decisions for themselves. 
And we honestly do.

(I have rewritten this three times- it always gets too long.)

I will just skip to answering each question hopefully briefly.
 

1. without question it’s a little bit of both. Trust that you have work to do to mend this, and eliminate the need to figure out their hang ups. You don’t have control over them. You can make a change by just changing yourself (if your motive can allow for that.)

2. Find new ways to talk about your faith if that’s a requirement for you. Be honest with yourself about your motive. If you need them to change, they will pick up on that and will not feel safe.

If you believe you need to please God by expecting your kids to change, then that is your choice and it will have an impact on your relationship with your kids. Hard choice isn’t it? I will share with you that I don’t believe I need to please God by hoping my kids will become members of the LDS church. I trust God that my good children will be taken care of, as will I if I do my best to keep the commandments and love God.   It’s hard because throughout my life, I have been given the Messaging that says I won’t have my family the way I would otherwise.  98% of the time I can tell myself that such Messaging is damaging and I reject the premise. 

(I want to tell a story that explains this, but I’m gonna keep it short)

3. You’re not required to have anything in your home that you don’t want to have. There will be consequences for that as well.

I can insist that everybody wears a clown suit on Thursdays in my house. That’s my right as a homeowner. Other adult adults get to choose if they don’t want to come around on Thursdays.  I have to live with that.  
 

At my house, I have a coffee maker. I have a lot of guests in my home who drink coffee. They know that I’ve never tasted it. They appreciate the convenience of not having to drive 20 minutes to the nearest coffee stand. No skin off my nose at all to provide a normal basic human experience. 
I never buy alcohol and my kids know I never want to see them intoxicated. But I do want them to share their stories with me. I make it safe for them to do that.
 

4. Girls are more sensitive. We love it and we don’t.  We can’t have it both ways, insisting that girls are sensitive and nurturing in the ways that benefit us but shutting it down when meeting their own sensitive needs is inconvenient for us. Boys can be quite conflict avoidant family members. There’s pros and cons to both ways. 
 

I am a wildly imperfect parent. There are a lot of things that I do incorrectly. My past is riddled with flaws.  That said, I believe I do know how to foster trust with our adult kids.  
 

1 . my ideals are not theirs.  I need to get out of their way. If they want my help, they will ask. 
 

2. The older I get the more apparent to me that I know very little. Best to stay curious about the changing world and be open to learning from my kids. They have a better pulse on a large section of society than I do anyway.

3. Do I want to be right, or do I want to be connected?

4.  Hold my boundaries, but stay in my own lane. Holding boundary has nothing to do with what anybody else is doing. It only has what I am doing and what I will allow for me to be exposed to. 
 

5. Two people will experience the same event very differently. Work to be less defensive if somebody else’s narrative is different than mine of the same event. Be curious instead. 
 

6. The kids will turn out completely differently from what I imagined. (Thank goodness) - enjoy the ride.  
 

These philosophies work well for me. You will not see me offering religious texts as gifts, maga hats, gluten free recipe files or beachwear coverups  .  You will see me in a mumu taking pics of you in your bikini, telling you that I taught Sunday school today, listening to you tell me about the party you attended last night. I’ll be eating my cottage cheese while you enjoy your steak and we will all hopefully walk away feeling seen and loved. 


 

 

Beautiful.  I'm so glad I "know" you.  I just wish you were around when my kids were young!

[Autonomous]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

Nope.

 

Religious people can and do love other people.  They do it imperfectly...like everyone else does. Some will love better than others and it's good to learn from them how to do it better.

 

Love has many meanings.  

When you are at the pearly gates, according to your beliefs, will you leave all the others behind and waltz into your limited, incomplete heaven without all those other non-believers?  

 

Limited heaven beliefs = limited love, shallow bonds, love of church >love of people.  

 

If you loved people more than your church, you would reject the Mormon version of heaven.  

 

Heaven isn't heaven unless everyone is there.  Mormon heaven sounds more like he'll to me - split families, such a small little group who turns their nose up at everyone else   - sounds like hell.

[Rain]

Just now, Autonomous said:

 

Love has many meanings.  

When you are at the pearly gates, according to your beliefs, will you leave all the others behind and waltz into your limited, incomplete heaven without all those other non-believers?  

You are assuming I am a believer in the church.  I am not. 

Just now, Autonomous said:

 

Limited heaven beliefs = limited love, shallow bonds, love of church >love of people.  

 

If you loved people more than your church, you would reject the Mormon version of heaven.  

 

Just now, Autonomous said:

 

Heaven isn't heaven unless everyone is there.  Mormon heaven sounds more like he'll to me - split families, such a small little group who turns their nose up at everyone else   - sounds like hell.

 

[The Nehor]

23 hours ago, teddyaware said:

You allowed yourself to become instantly triggered by the mere mention of the name of Korihor, instead of carefully analyzing what it was that I actually said. The only reason why I brought Korihor into this discussion is because even though he was a hardened professed atheist, in the end he openly testified to the world that in his heart he always knew there was a God. I was pointing to a principle with universal application that’s powerfully exemplified in the story of Korihor, and did so without at all suggesting that Maestrophil’s unbelieving children had somehow morally degenerated to the point of becoming like the desperately evil Korihor. My intention was to instill hope that if even the hardened professed atheist Korihor always knew in his heart that there was a God, there’s great reason to believe that most anyone who becomes verbally hostile to the gospel also knows in his heart of hearts that the gospel is true. The very real hope is that eventually this unacknowledged belief of heart will gain the ascendancy in the end.

Generalizing a specific case to everyone alive? Sounds fun.

Why are you hiding your bisexuality from the world? You should get that ADHD treated. Also learn to pay attention in church meetings you easily distracted weirdo.

I love this.

23 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Your response amounts to a textbook example of what the prophet Isaiah calls making a man an offender for a word. Calmly employing critical thinking skills rather than succumbing to the temptation to instantly strike out in anger against someone you dislike will serve you well.

I talked to irony and he said he just can’t engage with this. It is just too blatant.

[Autonomous]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

You are assuming I am a believer in the church.  I am not. 

 

 

 

Sorry - religious people who believe in a limited heaven.  

I see anyone who believes in a limited heaven as loving their church more than people.  Difficult to have a meaningful relashionship with anyone who prioritizes and hopes for their particular dogma more than connection with real people.

 

Heaven/goals/greatest hope for some is to be one of the few chosen elect to rule and reign over other lesser individuals who refuse to agree with some dogma.

 

Heaven/goals/greatest hope for others is connection between everyone,  all humanity equally loved, equally united, together with everyone  - no heirarchy.  

 

Heaven for the athiest, tao, zen? It is -  Drop of water returns to ocean  idea.  Energy, information, matter, it is all just mixed together in the end - literally mixed in with everyone and everything - together foreverwith it all - have always been together.  That's what brings me peace.  "That's just me in a different life", or thinking it all gets mixed into the same bowl in the end.  Ultimate togetherness

[Calm]

10 hours ago, Autonomous said:

The degree to which anyone is confident or certain in the belief of their group is the degree of their intolerance, and inability to be united with any other group or outsider.

Since you appear to be quite certain about this, should I assume you are intolerant of me and we won’t be able to find shared POV because I think you are quite wrong in this opinion?

Especially since you appear to be telling me there is only one way to experience the Church according to Church standards….which isn’t anything like what is actually taught in Church, though there are probably some families like that (even my dad was kind of like that with a few things—nothing that had to do with the Church as our conflicts were over health choices and work/financial priorities that worked great for him but didn’t fit my individual needs, but I can extrapolate to what that could be like—with his “no need to reinvent the wheel”).

Edited May 15, 2025 by Calm