Advice on a recent family experience

[The Nehor]

30 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

To be fair - I am sure they read and perceived out comments as "we love you BUT" but that is not at all what was said.  Again, I am trying to mend what I recognize was hurtful, even though it was not meant to be.  Our message was.  We love you for who you are, here is a list of great qualities we love about you (list follows custom for each kids).  This book is decorated by mom with scenery that reminds us of you.  We have found a lot of peace through Jesus, and if you ever find yourself needing help or searching, we are always here for you, and we believe God is too.  But regardless of what you believe or what you do, we are in your corner and your value has nothing to do with your beliefs."

Again, I can see how that could be received badly, because it does incorporate our testimony, but I feel it is a far cry from 'we love you BUT'. 

As I have said, when I have been given a Quran, or the CES letter etc by family or friends, I have always thanked them, and always read it - and those were given in an obvious attempt to convert me, no decorations, or loving dedication inside - No offense taken on my part.  I dislike the CES letter very much, but the giver didn't need to know that - Or that I had already read it several times.  I just took it out of respect for what they feel is right.  

Now I don't expect everything to be like me, but of course, I see things how I see them, and I am working on seeing things from other perspectives.  

I have rough drafted an apology with my wife to the kids that I will post for feedback.

I believe you didn’t mean to say that but it probably comes across that way. And actions can convey things we secretly feel but would never say.

I got called out on this once. It wasn’t pleasant when I realized why I was acting the way I was.

[Maestrophil]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

I believe you didn’t mean to say that but it probably comes across that way. And actions can convey things we secretly feel but would never say.

I got called out on this once. It wasn’t pleasant when I realized why I was acting the way I was.

For sure - it did lead to an uncomfortable but needed conversation.

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, CV75 said:

To address your question first, punching the bully (is there one in the OP?) lacks grace.

Doesn’t have to. You can punch gracefully.

9 hours ago, CV75 said:

Everyone has a right to and "every reason" for their interpretation of gifts offered them.

Yeah, but some are obvious.

9 hours ago, CV75 said:

I wouldn’t have a problem receiving a gift such as you described, but the OP isn’t seeking advice on the right way to interpret gifts and motives, but on how to improve family relationships. Pretty much the same thing as the happy wife thread.

I would if it came from someone close to me.

[Maestrophil]

Here is our draft of an apology for the kiddos:

We want to reach out and sincerely apologize for the gift we gave you — the decorated Book of Mormon. At the time, we saw it as a heartfelt gesture, especially with your mom’s beautiful artwork. But we’ve come to realize that it may have carried a different message than we intended — one that made some of you feel unseen, hurt, or pressured to return to something you’ve chosen to step away from.

That was never our intention, and we’re truly sorry.

We also recognize that some of you have experienced real pain and harm connected to the Church. We want to acknowledge that, and we’re sorry for not being more sensitive to it. Your experiences are valid, and your feelings matter deeply to us. We don’t want to minimize that pain or give the impression that we haven’t heard or understood it.

Please know that we love you unconditionally. Our relationship with you is not based on belief or membership — it’s based on who you are, and that is enough. You don’t have to change for us to love you fully. We want each of you to feel free to be your true self, and to know that you are accepted just as you are.

We’re always learning and trying to do better. Thank you for being honest with us, even when it’s hard. That honesty helps us grow and strengthens our connection as a family.

We love you — always and no matter what.

[Peacefully]

On 5/13/2025 at 4:14 PM, california boy said:

I have to say, some members are so clueless as to what is appropriate to "give as a gift" to those that have no interest in the Church.  You really think that inviting someone to church who no longer wants anything to do with the Church is a good idea and can't figure out why that is pretty offensive?  What would you think if your sibling gave you a needle and drugs in hopes that you would get high with them?  Or a Book of Mormon as a "gift" as if the person receiving it has never heard of the Book of Mormon or how to get one if they want it.  Would you be grateful if those that left the church in your family told you how much they love you and have offered to you the CES letter in hopes that you will pray over it and find the real truth about Mormonism?   Would you feel loved if everything your children visited you they brought up points they felt would help you from the CES letter?  Would you like it if they testified of the truthfulness of the things contained in the CES letter?  How about constantly asking if you were still going to that looser church or if you have finally seen the light and it is all made up.

My dad used to send me letters when I first came out to him quoting scriptures and hoping that by writing these letters that basically said I was going to hell would entice me back into the Church.  He would always sign the letter with Love from Dad.  Not feeling any love there, just a strong message of judgement and total lack of understanding about who I actually am.  He even suggested that maybe I should find some woman and that would straighten me out.  As if the reason why I am gay is because of my wife????  And not considering that I taught seminary for 6 years and probably could quote way more scriptures than he could.

My hope is, you will see this reply as aggressive and maybe even a bit judgmental towards you.  If I can get you to have those feelings, then you will start to see how your children/relatives see your actions.  Not a lot of love there, but lots of judgement.

 

I have to admit that I sometimes, selfishly, I want my kids and grandkids to come to church with me so I can show them off. I am a bit envious of people whose families come to church with them, even if it is just on holidays. However, I have to remind myself that it isn’t worth it if my kids are going to be miserable or uncomfortable. OTOH, when the grandkids stay overnight, no one minds if I take them to church so I get my fix that way, lol. 

Edited May 16, 2025 by Peacefully

[JVW]

13 minutes ago, Rain said:

Generally, yelling and screaming at people make them dig in and hold stronger to how they felt before. It gives them justification. It blocks logical thinking.  It's definitely good to be open and communicate, but when you start yelling, calling names and flipping the other person off it almost always harms the relationship instead.

So ... instead of them never wanting to speak to, or see, you again ... they just want to never want to do that ... more? What's the downside here? They may or may not be aware of the pain they are causing. They may or may not be aware that they are being idiots. But whether they are aware or not, the one who is hurt hasn't communicated it so even if they know, they don't really know the full extent of the pain caused. And if they are unaware then leaving them in the dark is doing a disservice because what if they think their behavior is good? That will color all sorts of relationships they are having.

When my mom passed away I was by her side, and I was in town for the weekend. So I went through all of her old paperwork, all of her junk around the house, and sorted through it all and tried to be as helpful as I could be for my siblings, especially my brother, who was living in her home at the time. I was in great mourning, and keeping myself busy was my way of coping with my grief. A few weeks later I get this nasty text from my brother and I remember when I read it I thought, "I can't even right now. I am in so much pain, I don't need this. I haven't been bothered by how he's been grieving, which is different from how I've been handling it. How dare he judge me." He thought everything I did while I was in town before, during, and after her passing was dishonoring my mother. Instead of responding to the incredibly nasty text, I thought it would be better, for both of us, if I called and heard what he thought from his own thoughts, not from anything passive aggressive, or potentially twisted as words can be.

During the call, as he went through the points he made in the text, but via speaking, I was responding in real time, and we ended up getting really heated, and I screamed at him, and he screamed at me. I told him I hoped his dog dies, even, I was really mean, but man I was hurting. My brother was being really really nasty to me. After like 30 minutes of yelling at each other, and over each other, and whatever. We got through everything and I told him that I was glad we could let it all out on each other and that I loved him. I personally feel like our relationship is a little better, because we both know that we can be brutally honest with each other and come out the other end of it still keeping in touch and being forgiving.

But even if it ended up causing our already tenuous relationship to crumble and me to lose a brother, at the end of the day I live with myself 24/7 and nobody cares about my own happiness more than I do. And I would be unhappy if I didn't express the pain that he caused me, and didn't have to cause me, if he kept his trap shut. So, at a bare minimum, I felt an obligation to myself to express myself honestly to him, although I also wanted him to understand that there can be consequences to running your mouth, so choose your words carefully.

Of course, there is a lot of nuance depending on the situation and the context. It is not always appropriate to be confrontational. I'm not always yelling at my wife every time she does something that upsets me. But if she does something really terrible, I'll confront her about it and try to resolve it, and I hope she would do the same courtesy to me. In californiaboy's situation, I say, heck yeah, confront the siblings. How dare they do what they're doing without consequence, they're being awful people (based on the .01% of context that I have from this thread).

[JVW]

4 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

Here is our draft of an apology for the kiddos:

We want to reach out and sincerely apologize for the gift we gave you — the decorated Book of Mormon. At the time, we saw it as a heartfelt gesture, especially with your mom’s beautiful artwork. But we’ve come to realize that it may have carried a different message than we intended — one that made some of you feel unseen, hurt, or pressured to return to something you’ve chosen to step away from.

That was never our intention, and we’re truly sorry.

We also recognize that some of you have experienced real pain and harm connected to the Church. We want to acknowledge that, and we’re sorry for not being more sensitive to it. Your experiences are valid, and your feelings matter deeply to us. We don’t want to minimize that pain or give the impression that we haven’t heard or understood it.

Please know that we love you unconditionally. Our relationship with you is not based on belief or membership — it’s based on who you are, and that is enough. You don’t have to change for us to love you fully. We want each of you to feel free to be your true self, and to know that you are accepted just as you are.

We’re always learning and trying to do better. Thank you for being honest with us, even when it’s hard. That honesty helps us grow and strengthens our connection as a family.

We love you — always and no matter what.

I would edit this by removing the apology for giving "a heartfelt gift". Nobody should ever apologize for giving a present, how entitled would the receiver need to be in order to demand or expect an apology for receiving something, for free, that took time and effort to make? But setting that aside, they could think something like "They are being facetious like 'oh, look at me, I gave a heartfelt gift that was so incredible and I'm sooo sorry about it." Am I making any sense?

Everything else sounds good, but I think would sound better coming in a one-on-one conversation in-person or via phone call. It's really beautiful how much you two care about your children.

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You can punch gracefully.

Especially if you do it in slow motion with a good action movie soundtrack playing.

[Calm]

30 minutes ago, JVW said:

would edit this by removing the apology for giving "a heartfelt gift". Nobody should ever apologize for giving a present, how entitled would the receiver need to be in order to demand or expect an apology for receiving something, for free, that took time and effort to make?

And shockingly I disagree.  Is it entitled to need to be understood by loved ones?  And giving an apology for misunderstanding or not paying close enough attention, not thinking things all the way through when it’s not demanded or expected but needed is very meaningful imo.

I do agree one on one in person is best if possible.  Some people like myself have difficulty with the phone and so may be better with writing as long as it’s presented as an open, ongoing conversation and not a one and done (it’s always good imo to state one may not be as clear in one’s writing as needed, so if something comes across poorly one would like to be told to be able to try and better express it).

Edited May 16, 2025 by Calm

[Maestrophil]

24 minutes ago, JVW said:

I would edit this by removing the apology for giving "a heartfelt gift". Nobody should ever apologize for giving a present, how entitled would the receiver need to be in order to demand or expect an apology for receiving something, for free, that took time and effort to make? But setting that aside, they could think something like "They are being facetious like 'oh, look at me, I gave a heartfelt gift that was so incredible and I'm sooo sorry about it." Am I making any sense?

Everything else sounds good, but I think would sound better coming in a one-on-one conversation in-person or via phone call. It's really beautiful how much you two care about your children.

Thank you for those suggestions - we are trying to see how to best do this - since not all of our kids are geographically close to us all the time - they were here for Mother's Day, but they are not all frequently available.  

And thank you for recognizing the love for our children, we have been a blended family for 15 years, and have worked very hard to better things for the kids. We are proud that they all chose to accept each other as siblings, even now as adults.  They are wonderful people

[MustardSeed]

54 minutes ago, JVW said:

I think would sound better coming in a one-on-one conversation

Definitely. 
much more personal and heartfelt one on one. The ones who weren’t bothered don’t need the letter. 

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Maestrophil said:

Here is our draft of an apology for the kiddos:

We want to reach out and sincerely apologize for the gift we gave you — the decorated Book of Mormon. At the time, we saw it as a heartfelt gesture, especially with your mom’s beautiful artwork. But we’ve come to realize that it may have carried a different message than we intended — one that made some of you feel unseen, hurt, or pressured to return to something you’ve chosen to step away from.

That was never our intention, and we’re truly sorry.

We also recognize that some of you have experienced real pain and harm connected to the Church. We want to acknowledge that, and we’re sorry for not being more sensitive to it. Your experiences are valid, and your feelings matter deeply to us. We don’t want to minimize that pain or give the impression that we haven’t heard or understood it.

Please know that we love you unconditionally. Our relationship with you is not based on belief or membership — it’s based on who you are, and that is enough. You don’t have to change for us to love you fully. We want each of you to feel free to be your true self, and to know that you are accepted just as you are.

We’re always learning and trying to do better. Thank you for being honest with us, even when it’s hard. That honesty helps us grow and strengthens our connection as a family.

We love you — always and no matter what.

I would feel heard, respected and loved if I received this.

[Calm]

Maestro, I can’t remember if you mentioned it or not, but has your wife given the kids art pieces in the past, especially recently? 

Maybe she could offer to do something the kids resonated more with.

My mother was an artist.  The pieces I appreciated most were the ones she asked me what I would like her to do.  In particular, she created two books for my children personalized to them when they were quite young, one original for my son and another adapted from a favorite book for my daughter (she became the main character).  They loved reading their own book.  I made copies and laminated and spiraled bound them so they could read them over and over and fall asleep with them.  (This was before they had the online services which would put books in a nice binding for you).  She also did a landscape set for my living room that was both a memory (a national park we went camping in a lot as kids) and was color coordinated because I am obsessive about that (which is her fault because I grew up in a very well composed home and now can’t relax if things clash).

Edited May 16, 2025 by Calm

[CV75]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

I'm not understanding what you're saying here.

Just a fancy way of saying the resolution to "Give them the bird and/or get into a screaming argument..." is the normal and even ideal way to resolve differences in some settings. Not for every setting, though.

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Nor am I. 

 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

I have found that often those who themselves have been hurt by the church or hold resentment feel a need to stand, perhaps a little too strongly, for those who are outside the church.  I agree the hurt can and does go both ways - for instance, our daughter that got the most offended believes in spiritualism, and knows my wife has had experiences with the other side that she can't deny happened, so now instead of the daughter saying, my mom has a spiritual gift, she says, "I didn't believe in witches until I saw my moms unexplainable experiences. Now calling her mom a 'withc' may be intended a cool thing to her, but to my wife it is hurtful and dismissive - we are all learning. 

I'm not sure the spiritual belief is at the root of the offense, but the management of the belief and conflict. The same thing happens with politics, sports, etc. I think grace would help your daughter and wife interact on the the most edifying principles their beliefs have to offer; presumably it is good faith by which they hold their beliefs in the first place. If not, that would be borne out in the long run, but that isn't the problem (the interaction is).

[CV75]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Doesn’t have to. You can punch gracefully.

Yeah, but some are obvious.

I would if it came from someone close to me.

It seems to me that you understand and love those who are close to you, and so you show them grace and give them space.

[JVW]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

And shockingly I disagree.  Is it entitled to need to be understood by loved ones?  And giving an apology for misunderstanding or not paying close enough attention, not thinking things all the way through when it’s not demanded or expected but needed is very meaningful imo.

I do agree one on one in person is best if possible.  Some people like myself have difficulty with the phone and so may be better with writing as long as it’s presented as an open, ongoing conversation and not a one and done (it’s always good imo to state one may not be as clear in one’s writing as needed, so if something comes across poorly one would like to be told to be able to try and better express it).

I agree with everything you've said here. You didn't say he should apologize for giving the gift. I don't think there's an issue for apologizing for misunderstanding, not paying enough attention, etc. 

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, JVW said:

You didn't say he should apologize for giving the gift.

When I said I disagreed, I meant I believe he should apologize for giving the wrong gift.

Edited May 16, 2025 by Calm

[Maestrophil]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

I would feel heard, respected and loved if I received this.

Thank you! 

[Maestrophil]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Maestro, I can’t remember if you mentioned it or not, but has your wife given the kids art pieces in the past, especially recently? 

Maybe she could offer to do something the kids resonated more with.

My mother was an artist.  The pieces I appreciated most were the ones she asked me what I would like her to do.  In particular, she created two books for my children personalized to them when they were quite young, one original for my son and another adapted from a favorite book for my daughter (she became the main character).  They loved reading their own book.  I made copies and laminated and spiraled bound them so they could read them over and over and fall asleep with them.  (This was before they had the online services which would put books in a nice binding for you).  She also did a landscape set for my living room that was both a memory (a national park we went camping in a lot as kids) and was color coordinated because I am obsessive about that (which is her fault because I grew up in a very well composed home and now can’t relax if things clash).

Yes.  She has and will continue to offer art to them - just not painted on religious tomes!  😜

[california boy]

4 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Here is our draft of an apology for the kiddos:

We want to reach out and sincerely apologize for the gift we gave you — the decorated Book of Mormon. At the time, we saw it as a heartfelt gesture, especially with your mom’s beautiful artwork. But we’ve come to realize that it may have carried a different message than we intended — one that made some of you feel unseen, hurt, or pressured to return to something you’ve chosen to step away from.

That was never our intention, and we’re truly sorry.

We also recognize that some of you have experienced real pain and harm connected to the Church. We want to acknowledge that, and we’re sorry for not being more sensitive to it. Your experiences are valid, and your feelings matter deeply to us. We don’t want to minimize that pain or give the impression that we haven’t heard or understood it.

Please know that we love you unconditionally. Our relationship with you is not based on belief or membership — it’s based on who you are, and that is enough. You don’t have to change for us to love you fully. We want each of you to feel free to be your true self, and to know that you are accepted just as you are.

We’re always learning and trying to do better. Thank you for being honest with us, even when it’s hard. That honesty helps us grow and strengthens our connection as a family.

We love you — always and no matter what.

I do like this a lot.  It does come across as you making a very sincere effort to try and correct the reasonable interpretation of your original intent.  I think something that you might consider is to have your wife paint something that is not directed at them from a religious perspective, but directed on something that would be special to each one of them, rather than a narritive that you wanted to direct at them.

I am not a big LGBT flag waiver, don't own anything that use any clothing or art or anything that uses the LGBT colors, but if I received something painted from one of my siblings that did incorporate those colors, it would truly be something I would cherish.  It could be something very simple like a painting of a box of crayons with 6 colors of the flag, or a vase with the flowers that are each of the colors or even a sunset of a city using the LGBT colors in the sky.  Just my thoughts.

ETA:  Looks like you have already done some of my suggestions.  I really feel the big effort you are making.  In the end that is really what is important. 

Edited May 17, 2025 by california boy

[Maestrophil]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I'm not sure the spiritual belief is at the root of the offense, but the management of the belief and conflict. The same thing happens with politics, sports, etc. I think grace would help your daughter and wife interact on the the most edifying principles their beliefs have to offer; presumably it is good faith by which they hold their beliefs in the first place. If not, that would be borne out in the long run, but that isn't the problem (the interaction is).

Great point.  Once we get past this hurdle, hopefully we can all have constructive conversations about mutual boundaries and respect.  We can work better on not bringing a religious tone into conversations and they can do better not bringing as much angst and assumptions 

[Maestrophil]

1 minute ago, california boy said:

I do like this a lot.  It does come across as you making a very sincere effort to try and correct the reasonable interpretation of your original intent.  I think something that you might consider is to have your wife paint something that is not directed at them from a religious perspective, but directed on something that would be special to each one of them, rather than a narritive that you wanted to direct at them.

I am not a big LGBT flag waiver, don't own anything that use any clothing or art or anything that uses the LGBT colors, but if I received something painted from one of my siblings that did incorporate those colors, it would truly be something I would cherish.  It could be something very simple like a painting of a box of crayons with 6 colors of the flag, or a vase with the flowers that are each of the colors or even a sunset of a city using the LGBT colors in the sky.  Just my thoughts.

They are great thoughts, thank you. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I am not a big LGBT flag waiver, don't own anything that use any clothing or art or anything that uses the LGBT colors, but if I received something painted from one of my siblings that did incorporate those colors, it would truly be something I would cherish.  It could be something very simple like a painting of a box of crayons with 6 colors of the flag, or a vase with the flowers that are each of the colors or even a sunset of a city using the LGBT colors in the sky.  Just my thoughts.

You can borrow some of my clothes if you need some. 😉

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Maestrophil said:

they can do better not bringing as much angst and assumptions 

Or bringing it up in such a way that helps them process it without hopefully hurting you and creating more pain for themselves.  Or maybe having some short term pain in order to heal bigger wounds.

One of the things I mourn about my mother’s and my relationship is that there were several things I needed to expressed to her so that we finally connected on the level we both had been trying to reach all of our lives, but that took me living long enough and getting sufficient information on my health to find the language and concepts to be able to convey what I wanted to convey.  Unfortunately when I got there, her dementia had progressed far enough that having the conversations with her would have just hurt her because all she would process was she had done something wrong…which wasn’t the message I wanted to share and certainly her saying sorry without understanding wasn’t what I needed to hear from her (I wanted to know why she made certain choices, but asking her that would make her think I was saying she had done something wrong rather than me being curious and trying to fit the puzzle together of why we were what we are).

So now I feel very stuck in those areas because I can’t learn what I needed to know about them. 

 I think it could be a great gift to your children to allow them to bring up their assumptions—which most likely means angst will be shared as well—so you can have conversations that give them the info they need when they are ready to have them.

It likely (speaking from experience of watching it happen with others) needs to be done in such a way that your own explanations are not expressed defensively or implying they were wrong , but for providing more info for them to add.  

For example, when I brought up I thought we were rich when I was young, my parents could have responded “where did you get that idea?  Couldn’t you see we were struggling?” Which implies there was something wrong with me for missing important cues.  I think if I had told my grandparents something similar, they would have been defensive because their overcoming their struggles were very important to them (Grandpa more or less taught himself engineering and ended up designing plants for the Utah sugar beet company and Morton Salt), neither of them went to college and they came from working class families and they wanted us kids to appreciate what we have.  Plus they weren’t that great dealing with emotional subjects.

Thankfully that didn’t happen with my parents as they were aware they hadn’t shared financial info with us kids, so they clearly accepted I didn’t have enough information given me in the way I could understand as a kid.  It ended up being something humorous between us.

Edited May 17, 2025 by Calm