Advice on a recent family experience

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Analytics said:

Hi Maestrophil,

I've personally been dealing with issues like these since I was born into a part-member family 50+ years ago. Over that time period, I've been on both sides of the divide, and I've watched other family members cross the divide, as well. I've seen both believers and apostates behave towards others with love, grace, and understanding, and I've seen both believers and apostates do and say some boneheaded things. For what its worth:

Is it their fault or your fault? I'd suggest you are both at fault. What you need to realize is that from their perspective, for some people the Church isn't a particularly healthy thing. You love it; good for you. They don't. You need to accept that. Giving somebody who has decided that the Church isn't for them a Book of Mormon painting would be like them giving you a painting of Hillary Clinton to hang on your living room wall (or if you happen to like Hillary Clinton, then a painting of Donald Trump). Even if they hand painted this themselves and included a note that they gave it to you because they love you and accept you, it would still come across as extremely tone-deaf and passive aggressive. 

That said, we all need grace.  

Here are a few stories that happened to me this last Christmas in Utah that illustrate good and bad cross-religion family behaviors.

Good Example: Alta Bombs
I live in the Midwest, and once a year, go skiing with a group of friends. We usually go to Utah, and when there always ski at Alta at least one day. A tradition we have is to always drink an "Alta Bomb" there. An Alta Bomb is a small glass of cold beer with a shot of espresso (coffee) poured in. The cold beer and hot coffee make a lukewarm concoction of beer and coffee that is every bit as nasty as it sounds. But for whatever reason, it's a tradition for us to drink those there. It suits the experience somehow.

My daughter married one of my ski-friend's sons, and this last Christmas I was in Utah for Christmas with the extended family, and a group of us went skiing--me, my sister, her husband (who is a bishop), a couple of their kids, my daughter, and me. My daughter is a new skier and this was her first time at Alta. Near the end of day when half of us were done and some were still skiing, I sheepishly asked my sister if she could drive my daughter and me from the Albion lodge where we were parked down to the Goldminer's Daughter lodge where they serve the Alta Bombs. It would be an initiation ritual to talk about with her husband. My sister graciously agreed, took us down there, dropped us off, and then picked us up 15 minutes later after we had our shot. My bishop brother-in-law asked about the Alta Bombs on the way down the canyon, and was extraordinarily gracious and non-judgmental in talking about it. The good-will points they earned that day were off the charts.

Bad Example: Wine
On Christmas day, the extended family was over at my dad's house. My dad was never a member, but married one. Perhaps 20% of the guests were non-members. One of my nephews decided this would be a good time to signal to his mother that he had left the Church, so he casually poured himself a glass of wine and started drinking it in front of everyone. His mother freaked out when she saw her son with a glass of wine. After thinking about it overnight, his mother went to my dad's (her father-in-law's) house to confront him. She announced: "I don't care if you drink, but my [30-year-old] son is not allowed to drink in front of his cousins, and if you dare allow him to drink in front of his cousins, you are going to have a problem with me! I don't care what you think or say about that. That's just the way it is." As she lectured him for about 10 minutes about how it was wrong for him to serve a glass of wine to an adult grandchild, she literally had some sort of panic attack and went to the E.R. 

Good Example: Gracious Hosting
After she left and the rest of the family were processing this spectacle, somebody asked my father what he was going to do. Everybody was braced for him to say, "It's my house, my grandson is an adult, and if I want to offer him a drink in my own home I'm going to do that, that is my right." But he didn't say that. Rather, he said, "You know what? My father always told me that it's very, very, important to be a gracious host and do whatever you can to make your guests feel welcome. From now on, I'm going to make sure my daughter-in-law feels welcome here, and I won't drink or serve alcohol in front of her." My dad had been serving alcohol in his home for 60 years, and everyone in the family knew that some wine being poured was part of the package of going there. But hearing him say he would stop serving it because he wanted to be a good host and make his guests feel comfortable won him an infinite amount of good will from everyone.

My Advice on Making Your Kids Feel Welcome
Is it wrong of you to ask your kids not to drink in your home? No. Of course not. It's your home. Your rules. But here is what you should ask yourself. What's more important, keeping wine out of my home, or making my kids feel loved? 

If I were in your shoes, making my kids feel loved is what I would choose. If you want to do that in a huge way, here is what you should do. If you don't have any wine glasses, go buy some. Buy a single bottle of inexpensive but classy wine (a bottle of Woodbridge Cabernet Sauvignon might cost $8.00. That is exactly what I'd get if I were you). And a $2.00 cork screw. The next time they come over for Sunday Dinner or whatever, have the wine bottle and glasses out. Then tell them, "We are as dedicated to the Church as ever, but we want to let you guys know how much we love you and accept you just the way you are. Would you like a glass of wine?" (If you wanted style points, you could say that while you opened the bottle and poured it.)

Of course you aren't morally obligated to do that. Your home. Your rules. I'm just saying that if you want to make your kids feel unconditional love, pouring them a glass of win will do it. It would be an incredibly powerful symbol that you love them. You accept them. Just the way they are. If you showed them that much grace, I'm confident they would reciprocate. 

Jesus served wine at parties. Are you willing to follow the example of Jesus and be Christlike in this way?

He only served wine because his mother told her 30 year old son to do it  

[california boy]

On 5/15/2025 at 8:11 AM, JVW said:

Give them the bird and/or get into a screaming argument with the crappy siblings one at a time. In other words, don't let them get away with it. If you care about them, then confronting them is loving. If you don't care about them, then don't spend the energy. But they are making terrible decisions, and whether they are aware of it or not, if you let them know about it it will help you. Yelling at someone for a valid reason and letting it all out is a really therapeutic experience, and when done with vulnerability it can actually heal relationships. It would be a shame for your heart to be unheard by those who hurt you deeply for no good reason.

This is definitely what I would love to do, but I know it would just bring harder feelings and is not really in my nature.  But thanks for letting me fantasizing about this anyway.  

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Notatbm said:

I have not experienced the same shunning as you have, but starting with my refusal to serve a mission I have been sort of an outcast with my family. Definitely not to the same level as you apparently but we have been excluded from lots of stuff. 
 

perhaps your family took Pres Oaks commentary (if even aware of it) about not being seen in public or allowing staying overnight to heart. You likely know the comment I’m talking about. If not, here it is:

“I can also imagine some circumstances in which it might be possible to say, ‘Yes, come, but don’t expect to stay overnight. Don’t expect to be a lengthy house guest. Don’t expect us to take you out and introduce you to our friends, or to deal with you in a public situation that would imply our approval of your “partnership.””

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/interview-oaks-wickman-same-gender-attraction

 

 

I am so sorry you are feeling outcast from your family.  I don't think that others might even understand that kind of hurt.  When I first came out to my dad, it did not go well.  Honestly I thought that there was a good possibility that I may never speak to him again.  My sister was with me when I told my father.  I left and not in a good way.  She came running out to my car before I left and told me that this is just very emotional and things can change.  Then she said that there was one good thing that came out of this, she was no longe the black sheep of the family..  You see, she was dating this guy for a while.  He joined the church because he knew he would never be able to marry her if he didn't.  Her bishop strongly encouraged her to marry him sooner than later in a civil marriage and then wait the year for a temple marriage.  She didn't really think that was really the best option for her, but obediently did what the bishop asked.  The guy ended up being a real jerk.  After two children from that marriage she divorced him.  The whole family was so happy for her.  But my father felt like she had shamed the family and unbeknownst to me, he really treated her terribly.  Yeah, being gay definitely trumps being divorced.  She is the one sibling that has shown me nothing but love from the very beginning of this journey.  She is the first one to welcome my partner into her home.  And she is the one that leveled with me about what was really going on trying very delicately to not say anything hurtful about any of my siblings.  

Live your life honestly and truthfully.  There is nothing shameful about trusting yourself and your own personal relationship with God.  I think there is a very good possibility that the experience you are having will be a blessing to someone else who feels rejected by your family as my sister has been for me.  

[california boy]

4 hours ago, Analytics said:

Hi Maestrophil,

I've personally been dealing with issues like these since I was born into a part-member family 50+ years ago. Over that time period, I've been on both sides of the divide, and I've watched other family members cross the divide, as well. I've seen both believers and apostates behave towards others with love, grace, and understanding, and I've seen both believers and apostates do and say some boneheaded things. For what its worth:

Is it their fault or your fault? I'd suggest you are both at fault. What you need to realize is that from their perspective, for some people the Church isn't a particularly healthy thing. You love it; good for you. They don't. You need to accept that. Giving somebody who has decided that the Church isn't for them a Book of Mormon painting would be like them giving you a painting of Hillary Clinton to hang on your living room wall (or if you happen to like Hillary Clinton, then a painting of Donald Trump). Even if they hand painted this themselves and included a note that they gave it to you because they love you and accept you, it would still come across as extremely tone-deaf and passive aggressive. 

That said, we all need grace.  

Here are a few stories that happened to me this last Christmas in Utah that illustrate good and bad cross-religion family behaviors.

Good Example: Alta Bombs
I live in the Midwest, and once a year, go skiing with a group of friends. We usually go to Utah, and when there always ski at Alta at least one day. A tradition we have is to always drink an "Alta Bomb" there. An Alta Bomb is a small glass of cold beer with a shot of espresso (coffee) poured in. The cold beer and hot coffee make a lukewarm concoction of beer and coffee that is every bit as nasty as it sounds. But for whatever reason, it's a tradition for us to drink those there. It suits the experience somehow.

My daughter married one of my ski-friend's sons, and this last Christmas I was in Utah for Christmas with the extended family, and a group of us went skiing--me, my sister, her husband (who is a bishop), a couple of their kids, my daughter, and me. My daughter is a new skier and this was her first time at Alta. Near the end of day when half of us were done and some were still skiing, I sheepishly asked my sister if she could drive my daughter and me from the Albion lodge where we were parked down to the Goldminer's Daughter lodge where they serve the Alta Bombs. It would be an initiation ritual to talk about with her husband. My sister graciously agreed, took us down there, dropped us off, and then picked us up 15 minutes later after we had our shot. My bishop brother-in-law asked about the Alta Bombs on the way down the canyon, and was extraordinarily gracious and non-judgmental in talking about it. The good-will points they earned that day were off the charts.

Bad Example: Wine
On Christmas day, the extended family was over at my dad's house. My dad was never a member, but married one. Perhaps 20% of the guests were non-members. One of my nephews decided this would be a good time to signal to his mother that he had left the Church, so he casually poured himself a glass of wine and started drinking it in front of everyone. His mother freaked out when she saw her son with a glass of wine. After thinking about it overnight, his mother went to my dad's (her father-in-law's) house to confront him. She announced: "I don't care if you drink, but my [30-year-old] son is not allowed to drink in front of his cousins, and if you dare allow him to drink in front of his cousins, you are going to have a problem with me! I don't care what you think or say about that. That's just the way it is." As she lectured him for about 10 minutes about how it was wrong for him to serve a glass of wine to an adult grandchild, she literally had some sort of panic attack and went to the E.R. 

Good Example: Gracious Hosting
After she left and the rest of the family were processing this spectacle, somebody asked my father what he was going to do. Everybody was braced for him to say, "It's my house, my grandson is an adult, and if I want to offer him a drink in my own home I'm going to do that, that is my right." But he didn't say that. Rather, he said, "You know what? My father always told me that it's very, very, important to be a gracious host and do whatever you can to make your guests feel welcome. From now on, I'm going to make sure my daughter-in-law feels welcome here, and I won't drink or serve alcohol in front of her." My dad had been serving alcohol in his home for 60 years, and everyone in the family knew that some wine being poured was part of the package of going there. But hearing him say he would stop serving it because he wanted to be a good host and make his guests feel comfortable won him an infinite amount of good will from everyone.

My Advice on Making Your Kids Feel Welcome
Is it wrong of you to ask your kids not to drink in your home? No. Of course not. It's your home. Your rules. But here is what you should ask yourself. What's more important, keeping wine out of my home, or making my kids feel loved? 

If I were in your shoes, making my kids feel loved is what I would choose. If you want to do that in a huge way, here is what you should do. If you don't have any wine glasses, go buy some. Buy a single bottle of inexpensive but classy wine (a bottle of Woodbridge Cabernet Sauvignon might cost $8.00. That is exactly what I'd get if I were you). And a $2.00 cork screw. The next time they come over for Sunday Dinner or whatever, have the wine bottle and glasses out. Then tell them, "We are as dedicated to the Church as ever, but we want to let you guys know how much we love you and accept you just the way you are. Would you like a glass of wine?" (If you wanted style points, you could say that while you opened the bottle and poured it.)

Of course you aren't morally obligated to do that. Your home. Your rules. I'm just saying that if you want to make your kids feel unconditional love, pouring them a glass of win will do it. It would be an incredibly powerful symbol that you love them. You accept them. Just the way they are. If you showed them that much grace, I'm confident they would reciprocate. 

Jesus served wine at parties. Are you willing to follow the example of Jesus and be Christlike in this way?

This is so right on.  Especially this part. 

Quote

 

Is it wrong of you to ask your kids not to drink in your home? No. Of course not. It's your home. Your rules. But here is what you should ask yourself. What's more important, keeping wine out of my home, or making my kids feel loved? 

Of course you aren't morally obligated to do that. Your home. Your rules. I'm just saying that if you want to make your kids feel unconditional love, pouring them a glass of win will do it. It would be an incredibly powerful symbol that you love them. You accept them. Just the way they are. If you showed them that much grace, I'm confident they would reciprocate. 

 

 

[JVW]

25 minutes ago, california boy said:

This is definitely what I would love to do, but I know it would just bring harder feelings and is not really in my nature.  But thanks for letting me fantasizing about this anyway.  

Harder feelings? What feelings can be harder than intentionally excluding you and not wanting to ever see you or talk to you? You literally have nothing to lose and it sounds like an entire fantasy fulfillment to gain. I say go for it bro

[california boy]

1 minute ago, JVW said:

Harder feelings? What feelings can be harder than intentionally excluding you and not wanting to ever see you or talk to you? You literally have nothing to lose and it sounds like an entire fantasy fulfillment to gain. I say go for it bro

Making a wound so deep it will never heal.  But maybe opening up the wound so it won't continue to fester is something to consider.  Maybe some things do need to be said.  I will think about this more.

 

Thanks.

[CV75]

30 minutes ago, JVW said:

Harder feelings? What feelings can be harder than intentionally excluding you and not wanting to ever see you or talk to you? You literally have nothing to lose and it sounds like an entire fantasy fulfillment to gain. I say go for it bro

I think this shows how different laws prevail in different "kingdoms" and that a law renders success in one won't serve well in another. We choose which laws to abide in the daily life we share, where many kingdoms and laws swirl around and interact with each other.

[JVW]

5 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think this shows how different laws prevail in different "kingdoms" and that a law renders success in one won't serve well in another. We choose which laws to abide in the daily life we share, where many kingdoms and laws swirl around and interact with each other.

I'm not understanding what you're saying here.

[MustardSeed]

1 minute ago, JVW said:

I'm not understanding what you're saying here.

Nor am I. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

 I haven't figured out how to add quotes from multiple pages)

The plus sign next to the quote button collects them and then allows you to list them in one post of your own, but you get the whole post for each, which can be confusing if you get several or they are long.

Edited May 16, 2025 by Calm

[Autonomous]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I get and agree with the rest of your post, but don’t understand this part.  First, it doesn’t make sense with you actually speaking in your post (I assume you are offering your advice/experience because you believe you do know something of value for others) and second, how will anyone learn anything of value from others through teaching if the ones who know don’t attempt to pass it on.  Sure, there is great value in being examples, but people can’t observe what is going on inside us and maybe that is what they need to know to learn what they  need to know.

So is this part meant generally or are you applying it to some specific behavior or situation.

Haha, the opening lines of the Tao are:

The name that can be named is not the eternal name...The unnamed is the eternally real. Naming is the root of all particular things.

 

Kind of like God - I am that I am, not really a name *Jews won't name God 

 

"Preach the gospel at all times and if necessary, use words" - Saint Francis of Assisi.     

 

The best sermons are preached without words, more than words.  

 

Words are fingers pointing to moon - don't look at finger, look to what the fingers point towards 

The Tao Te Ching is a short read, powerful little book..

 

No need to tell relatives your testimony, no need to write it down- they know, they know you just as you know them, without saying anything.  Just be a happy person, you know?  No preaching needed

Edited May 16, 2025 by Autonomous

[Autonomous]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Why not just pull out those cards?

Haha, I'm an introvert, have to study conversation cards and come prepared with *safe* fun interesting uplifting topics if needed.  

[Maestrophil]

On 5/15/2025 at 5:13 AM, The Nehor said:

It makes them duck and cover when you want to express love.

 

I love this insight.  Thank you

[Maestrophil]

On 5/15/2025 at 9:46 AM, CV75 said:

That us one interpreation of "the topic of the entire thread" but the OP points out that the gift givers are hurt also, and not just on the point of the gifts. So, in giving Maestrophil the advice he graciously seeks, all involved should be considered. From the emotional tenor of some of the replies in this this thread, there is more than just transactional facts at play. We can aee how bias influences our approaches to the advice given and received.

Assuming that all the parties are adults in the OP description, each owns a piece of what is going on and can contribute in ways other than pointing out how they are right and the other is wrong (period). Coming out of the gate defending one "side" is not a constructive way to accomplish that. I prefer to answer a person's request for advice from their perspective and then drill down from there rather than attacking their perspective outright. 

The OP is asking for help within the constraints of his assumptions (and who can help that?), and after that need is covered, more challenging advice can be given. When someone identifies with the daughters, they will lead out with that (they cannot help it), but the daughters are not seeking advice.

I have found that often those who themselves have been hurt by the church or hold resentment feel a need to stand, perhaps a little too strongly, for those who are outside the church.  I agree the hurt can and does go both ways - for instance, our daughter that got the most offended believes in spiritualism, and knows my wife has had experiences with the other side that she can't deny happened, so now instead of the daughter saying, my mom has a spiritual gift, she says, "I didn't believe in witches until I saw my moms unexplainable experiences. Now calling her mom a 'withc' may be intended a cool thing to her, but to my wife it is hurtful and dismissive - we are all learning. 

[Maestrophil]

On 5/15/2025 at 12:16 PM, The Nehor said:

It is strange how victims are often given this advice but it is rarely given to bullies.

Not saying that dynamic maps neatly onto this specific situation but the person doing the hurtful thing should be the one getting the correction. The reality is only the victim will ever take the advice.

Oh, come on. No one would write that ‘I respect your choices BUT’ suggestion into a gift to a ‘faithful’ child. If that truly is our language of love we have much bigger problems.

They often do this by disconnecting and getting some distance and then get to deal with complaints about not ever showing up. This reinforces the idea that the reason for the chasm is their disaffection from religion. The being if they weren’t disaffected they would be around more. Quite possibly true but the disaffection isn’t the reason they are withdrawing.

To be fair - I am sure they read and perceived out comments as "we love you BUT" but that is not at all what was said.  Again, I am trying to mend what I recognize was hurtful, even though it was not meant to be.  Our message was.  We love you for who you are, here is a list of great qualities we love about you (list follows custom for each kids).  This book is decorated by mom with scenery that reminds us of you.  We have found a lot of peace through Jesus, and if you ever find yourself needing help or searching, we are always here for you, and we believe God is too.  But regardless of what you believe or what you do, we are in your corner and your value has nothing to do with your beliefs."

Again, I can see how that could be received badly, because it does incorporate our testimony, but I feel it is a far cry from 'we love you BUT'. 

As I have said, when I have been given a Quran, or the CES letter etc by family or friends, I have always thanked them, and always read it - and those were given in an obvious attempt to convert me, no decorations, or loving dedication inside - No offense taken on my part.  I dislike the CES letter very much, but the giver didn't need to know that - Or that I had already read it several times.  I just took it out of respect for what they feel is right.  

Now I don't expect everything to be like me, but of course, I see things how I see them, and I am working on seeing things from other perspectives.  

I have rough drafted an apology with my wife to the kids that I will post for feedback.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, JVW said:

Harder feelings? What feelings can be harder than intentionally excluding you and not wanting to ever see you or talk to you? You literally have nothing to lose and it sounds like an entire fantasy fulfillment to gain. I say go for it bro

Generally, yelling and screaming at people make them dig in and hold stronger to how they felt before. It gives them justification. It blocks logical thinking.  It's definitely good to be open and communicate, but when you start yelling, calling names and flipping the other person off it almost always harms the relationship instead.

[Maestrophil]

22 hours ago, Doctor Steuss said:

Hi Maestrophil,

Please keep in mind that this is from solely *my* perspective, and if *my* parents had given *me* something similar (and just imagining it... if the actual situation happened, I might feel/react differently).

I’d absolutely love and cherish the art, and the personalized note, but it would be like someone really loving football, knowing full well that I don’t like football at all (they invite me to games, and I decline, they want me to watch with them, and I decline, they try to talk to me about it, and I have no interest to, etc., etc.), and despite knowing what my feelings are about football, they give me a football jersey that they customized as a gift, and include with it a letter of how they respect that I don’t like football.

It'd be weird (for lack of a better descriptive).  I wouldn’t see it as judgy necessarily, but it would be like a passive-aggressive way of reminding me how much they like football, and that they are somewhat consumed by the fact that I don’t also like football.

Obviously, I am in no way equating religious devotion to being a sports fan, but this is the metaphor than popped into my mind to best describe what my feelings about it would be.

It can be hard with gifts to remember that it is supposed to be something that will be meaningful to the other person, and not necessarily what is meaningful to us (I'm really bad at this, and a terrible gift-giver).

Totally what I am learning to be more sensitive about - your analogy is good, and if the person getting the jersey felt they were really traded in a terrible way when they were once on the football team, there would be not only dissatisfaction with the gift, but a reminder of pain...  Just the BOM itself can say volumes to someone who has imbued it with negative memories and connotations, right?

[Autonomous]

6 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

.. We have found a lot of peace through Jesus, and if you ever find yourself needing help or searching, we are always here for you, and we believe God is too.  

 

Make it generic - we believe in "a loving higher power", whatever anyone wants to call it  -   keep it generic

[Calm]

34 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

they know you just as you know them, without saying anything

I actually agree with this for some things, but not for others, like “I love you” and “I am proud of you”.  Just as saying those kinds of things is not enough, just acting out one’s love or pride without saying it may not be enough.

[Maestrophil]

17 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Imagine if someone sent you a gift that clearly demonstrated they are atheist and it included a handwritten letter bearing testimony that your religion is false. It also included a bit about how you are a good person somehow in spite of your faith and they respect you even if you stay with your faith.

As I said before - that would not offend me in the slightest.  

But that doesn't mean that a different reaction isn't valid. so I am trying to put myself in their shoes and do the best I can

[Maestrophil]

6 hours ago, Analytics said:

Hi Maestrophil,

I've personally been dealing with issues like these since I was born into a part-member family 50+ years ago. Over that time period, I've been on both sides of the divide, and I've watched other family members cross the divide, as well. I've seen both believers and apostates behave towards others with love, grace, and understanding, and I've seen both believers and apostates do and say some boneheaded things. For what its worth:

Is it their fault or your fault? I'd suggest you are both at fault. What you need to realize is that from their perspective, for some people the Church isn't a particularly healthy thing. You love it; good for you. They don't. You need to accept that. Giving somebody who has decided that the Church isn't for them a Book of Mormon painting would be like them giving you a painting of Hillary Clinton to hang on your living room wall (or if you happen to like Hillary Clinton, then a painting of Donald Trump). Even if they hand painted this themselves and included a note that they gave it to you because they love you and accept you, it would still come across as extremely tone-deaf and passive aggressive. 

That said, we all need grace.  

Here are a few stories that happened to me this last Christmas in Utah that illustrate good and bad cross-religion family behaviors.

Good Example: Alta Bombs
I live in the Midwest, and once a year, go skiing with a group of friends. We usually go to Utah, and when there always ski at Alta at least one day. A tradition we have is to always drink an "Alta Bomb" there. An Alta Bomb is a small glass of cold beer with a shot of espresso (coffee) poured in. The cold beer and hot coffee make a lukewarm concoction of beer and coffee that is every bit as nasty as it sounds. But for whatever reason, it's a tradition for us to drink those there. It suits the experience somehow.

My daughter married one of my ski-friend's sons, and this last Christmas I was in Utah for Christmas with the extended family, and a group of us went skiing--me, my sister, her husband (who is a bishop), a couple of their kids, my daughter, and me. My daughter is a new skier and this was her first time at Alta. Near the end of day when half of us were done and some were still skiing, I sheepishly asked my sister if she could drive my daughter and me from the Albion lodge where we were parked down to the Goldminer's Daughter lodge where they serve the Alta Bombs. It would be an initiation ritual to talk about with her husband. My sister graciously agreed, took us down there, dropped us off, and then picked us up 15 minutes later after we had our shot. My bishop brother-in-law asked about the Alta Bombs on the way down the canyon, and was extraordinarily gracious and non-judgmental in talking about it. The good-will points they earned that day were off the charts.

Bad Example: Wine
On Christmas day, the extended family was over at my dad's house. My dad was never a member, but married one. Perhaps 20% of the guests were non-members. One of my nephews decided this would be a good time to signal to his mother that he had left the Church, so he casually poured himself a glass of wine and started drinking it in front of everyone. His mother freaked out when she saw her son with a glass of wine. After thinking about it overnight, his mother went to my dad's (her father-in-law's) house to confront him. She announced: "I don't care if you drink, but my [30-year-old] son is not allowed to drink in front of his cousins, and if you dare allow him to drink in front of his cousins, you are going to have a problem with me! I don't care what you think or say about that. That's just the way it is." As she lectured him for about 10 minutes about how it was wrong for him to serve a glass of wine to an adult grandchild, she literally had some sort of panic attack and went to the E.R. 

Good Example: Gracious Hosting
After she left and the rest of the family were processing this spectacle, somebody asked my father what he was going to do. Everybody was braced for him to say, "It's my house, my grandson is an adult, and if I want to offer him a drink in my own home I'm going to do that, that is my right." But he didn't say that. Rather, he said, "You know what? My father always told me that it's very, very, important to be a gracious host and do whatever you can to make your guests feel welcome. From now on, I'm going to make sure my daughter-in-law feels welcome here, and I won't drink or serve alcohol in front of her." My dad had been serving alcohol in his home for 60 years, and everyone in the family knew that some wine being poured was part of the package of going there. But hearing him say he would stop serving it because he wanted to be a good host and make his guests feel comfortable won him an infinite amount of good will from everyone.

My Advice on Making Your Kids Feel Welcome
Is it wrong of you to ask your kids not to drink in your home? No. Of course not. It's your home. Your rules. But here is what you should ask yourself. What's more important, keeping wine out of my home, or making my kids feel loved? 

If I were in your shoes, making my kids feel loved is what I would choose. If you want to do that in a huge way, here is what you should do. If you don't have any wine glasses, go buy some. Buy a single bottle of inexpensive but classy wine (a bottle of Woodbridge Cabernet Sauvignon might cost $8.00. That is exactly what I'd get if I were you). And a $2.00 cork screw. The next time they come over for Sunday Dinner or whatever, have the wine bottle and glasses out. Then tell them, "We are as dedicated to the Church as ever, but we want to let you guys know how much we love you and accept you just the way you are. Would you like a glass of wine?" (If you wanted style points, you could say that while you opened the bottle and poured it.)

Of course you aren't morally obligated to do that. Your home. Your rules. I'm just saying that if you want to make your kids feel unconditional love, pouring them a glass of win will do it. It would be an incredibly powerful symbol that you love them. You accept them. Just the way they are. If you showed them that much grace, I'm confident they would reciprocate. 

Jesus served wine at parties. Are you willing to follow the example of Jesus and be Christlike in this way?

Great point, thank you.

No - we don't think we will ever want alcohol in our home.  My wife's ex husband (father of 3 of our six kids, was an abusive alcoholic and my wife has big trauma from alcohol because of it.  Also her oldest has recently become sober for about 6 months now, and he struggles to be around it, so that is another reason - it's more than religion for us.

The interesting thing is that the two girls who were most vocal and offended are my wife's biological daughters- The recently sober son is her oldest - and he has been hardcore into drugs and alcohol for years (he said he would accept the book with an open heart as he is searching for strength right now - but I know he dislikes the church). The two sons that were not offended at all and said they knew I loved them regardless of any faith issues are my bio boys, and the daughter who said she was a little bothered by some of our comments about the church is my youngest bio kid.

 

[Maestrophil]

5 hours ago, Amulek said:

I see where you are coming from, and I kind of agree. However, I’m not sure I’d go so far as to call it manipulative.

If a gift is an expression of someone’s talent or has personal meaning, even if it carries a religious tone, it can come more from a place of connection than control.

Sometimes it's just a way of saying, "You're still important to me, and this is part of who I am." I think intent matters a lot, and labeling it manipulative might overlook the nuance or sincerity behind the gesture.

 

If we had planned out the gift as a ploy, that would have been manipulative.  It was literally a, "Hey while I am decorating BOMs with teh youth and I have an hour to do so, I will do custom art for each kid" - short sighted maybe, but not manipulative or passive aggressive.  And we are learning to do better

[The Nehor]

17 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

My mom who is a devout member and has a hard time seeing points of view outside the faith might say, “but the church is actually true so it’s different.” 
 

But if I suggested that if my husband gave her a maga hat that he hand sewed, with a personal manifesto touting reasons why the neighbors should be sent back to their birth countries, she might be bothered by that even if he told her he loves her no matter who she voted for- she “might” get the premise. But she’d still lean hard in to “but the church is true so it’s different.”  I admire her deep devotion to her faith. But she can’t fathom anyone possibly being honestly happy without The Gospel.   
For the record she doesn’t preach at all to my non LDS siblings.  But she doesn’t hide the details of her life either. I think she handles it well.  It’s me and my sisters she preaches to- go figure 🤗

If you assume it is true that doesn’t make the approach effective.

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I agree. It’s a skill to accept a gift of any kind.  I personally think that especially if someone has left the family religion, a relic of that religion as a gift can certainly come across as tone deaf or as manipulative though imo. 

One can certainly graciously thank and toss and act polite- but imo it’s a missed opportunity to talk more deeply about what is really happening. 

Or as a group of my friends used to joke: “Gift giving is an act of aggression”

I mean it was half-jokingly. Some gifts we knew of were clearly outright attacks.

Edited May 16, 2025 by The Nehor

[Maestrophil]

4 hours ago, Notatbm said:

1- I’m coming from the inactive kid side of things. Parents are gone now, but for a good twenty years or so we (wife and I) would get church books (name any book from deseret and we got it) for all our birthdays and Christmas etc. I didn’t read one of em and we easily had  a couple thousand dollars worth of them before we ended up tossing them out after my parents died. They couldn’t check our bookshelf anymore. Also the continuous dialog about church stuff was true for them too. I grew up hearing incessant church talk. Church was their entire life. I didn’t really care to hear it but understood this was literally their life. They didn’t even have any non Mormon friends.

2- can’t help you there other than find something interesting in their lives to talk about. If you can’t find anything interesting other than church stuff. Well that’s a problem.

3- it is your house. As I’m the parent and I drink on occasion, I don’t do it when my kids are over so as not to influence the grand kiddos. I’m always happy to buy a beer if they want one tho. My kids are all on the way out so they really don’t care. They don’t drink anyway. 
 

4- no idea

 

 

 

 

 

For sure - this is the only church related thing we have ever offered to them - and we talk about plenty of topics - we are far from the cookie cutter LDS parents - I as a musician in LA for most of my young adult like, and had long hair, piercings, playing all over the US in bars and clubs (with a 2 year break for a mission).  I am a dual citizen so I have lots of cultural and religious diversity in my family, and I am a liberal with things like R rated movies etc. - but we are faithful, and that can be frustrating to some who really dislike the church