Autonomous

Make it generic - we believe in "a loving higher power", whatever anyone wants to call it - keep it generic

Haha, I'm an introvert, have to study conversation cards and come prepared with *safe* fun interesting uplifting topics if needed.

Haha, the opening lines of the Tao are: The name that can be named is not the eternal name...The unnamed is the eternally real. Naming is the root of all particular things. Kind of like God - I am that I am, not really a name *Jews won't name God "Preach the gospel at all times and if necessary, use words" - Saint Francis of Assisi. The best sermons are preached without words, more than words. Words are fingers pointing to moon - don't look at finger, look to what the fingers point towards The Tao Te Ching is a short read, powerful little book.. No need to tell relatives your testimony, no need to write it down- they know, they know you just as you know them, without saying anything. Just be a happy person, you know? No preaching needed

As someone in a mixed faith family (Catholics, Mormons, JW's, and atheists - LGBTQ and conservatives - the whole mix in there between my kids, parents, grandparents) what works for us is - don't talk about politics or religion haha. I actually have a conversation starter card game, that I have studied, so if something religious or political comes up I am prepared with how to change the conversation to something else. Find common ground - food, nature, hobbies, work - plenty of other things to talk about - watch inspiring documentaries together, catch up on everyone's news (health, etc.). I always have stories of students - inspiring things, stories of our community making it through storms, interesting scientific breakthroughs, art, music - go to a concert together- talk about the new e-cars, or talk sports if anyone is into that. Prepare a list of safe topics that are fun and inspiring to people, and stick to those. Do NOT talk politics or religion. we wei - act in harmony with natural flow, stop trying to force outcomes, trust in natural unfolding (or put it in God's hands if that is a better imagery for you). He who knows does not speak - He who speaks does not know - Do not try to shine, just be. Be content to simply be yourself (and let everyone else be themselves) - don't compare or compete, let things take their course, each unfolding in its own rhythm. Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be - famous words of wisdom Haha, come in here and rant if you must, but keep these conversations online - in-person, stay quiet, no lectures, let it be.

Limited evidence. Always room to find new piece of info that changes everything. I am a fan of William G. Perry - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_G._Perry_(psychologist) random google, many talk about the stages of intellectual development, https://www.jmu.edu/geology/_files/willperry.pdf The highest stage is "commitment" - [Quote] Position 6: Commitment Foreseen: In this position the student begins to see the necessity of commitment. Having lived through the plethora of choices available in multiplicity and relativism, Position 6 is seen as a “narrowing down” of choices in preparation for the commitment of Position 7. There is also a newfound sense of inner strength that comes of the autonomy of choosing; that is, the reality that the choice is his/hers grants the student a confidence in himself, or at any rate, a realization that the choice is his/hers to make. The awareness of Position 6 also makes the choices more personal and proactive instead of reactive: the choices are not made because authorities have told her to think a certain way, but because s(he) has decided on his/her own. This does not necessarily mean thats(he) has discounted the words of his/her former authorities, but simply that they have now assumed a more reasonable place in our minds as fallible and human. The student’ choices become his/her own instead of theirs, and his/her beliefs are distinctly individualized. Commitment in Relativism C Holds the same view of knowledge and authority but has chosen – in a deliberate, conscious way, based on a close review of the situation – to adhere to a particular point of view, subscribe to a particular school of thought, or stand up for a particular value. C The difference between this person and the Dualist isthat the Committed Relativist has given thought to the issue, and recognizes that the other perspectives have validity too; thus this person is marked by a high degree of tolerance of the (differing) views of other people, so long as they are willing to articulate the basis of their point of view and support it with evidence, sound reasoning, etc.(This stage is characterized by:“This is right for me.”) [/Quote] I've been married a looooong time (never divorced - been through quite a bit too.... ), have kids, have a long career - many years working at the same place, am on good terms with my parents. I have demonstrated commitment in the face of uncertainty. "Never meet your hero" - I've studied deeply enough to know the dark side of many I still learn from and look up to. Stage one - dualism, reliance on authority - to stage 6, the deepest kinds of relationships and commitment. Many never reach the higher Perry stages. I've reached commitment for some things.

Wise men describing an elephant parable - they all "know" from their own personal experience. I'm not sure if you have experienced trauma? where your mind dissociates? Your prefrontal cortex shuts down, can't process language or what is being said, emotional detachment - literally numb, "Comfortably Numb" as Pink Floyd sings... anyways, I've learned not to trust my own mind, know it has and does lead me astray - have to rely on research, combining info from others (if I feel triggered, have to look around, should I really be triggered?) LOL - we're all just people, to one extent or another, the "I experienced it" argument does not work for me. Consensus through reproducible, independently verified - multiple groups, all in agreement, now that is something to pay attention to. My own mind - or someone else's own mind - or just one group's groupthink going on - not so much. Serving Jury duty, we were asked interesting questions around what constitutes "beyond a reasonable doubt". We were shown parts of images, where part of the image was missing and asked - do you "know" what this is a picture of? Not “Beyond All Doubt”, but just reasonable doubt - we were judged based on when we thought we had enough of the picture to reasonably say what we thought it was a picture of. They also asked us - a nun, a child, a police officer, and a hooker all testify - who do you believe more? - the right answer, we're not supposed to judge anyone based on their background or their occupation - only judge on physical tangible evidence, does testimony match physical evidence? Eyewitness accounts tend to be unreliable in court cases. It is not uncommon to hear false memories, biased feedback.... in his court case, without the videos he took of the kids, he would have never been convicted - everyone "testified" what a wonderful high priest - called of god - respected church leader he was. A good book - autobiography of Ben Franklyn, he was a good writer, scientist and politician. I can't find the page but there's a paragraph where he discusses avoiding saying things like ‘certainly,’ or ‘undoubtedly,’ etc., and instead saying "it seems like" - or ‘I imagine a thing to be so or so, it appears to me at present,’ - that it is less embarrassing if one is wrong, and provides more open dialogue to leave room for - further light and knowledge - as it were. My God, why hast thou forsaken me? - I mean even Jesus had questions, wasn't certain... forsaken, abandoned - free, independent - the final struggle, breaking free from God, independence. a celebrity - anyone who "converts". It is always interesting to try the experiment, for a time.... I've been a member of multiple religious groups. That belief isn't unique to LDS. Different levels of glory isn't unique, and use of "chosen people" - to make members feel special, isn't unique. It is a technique used to reinforce group cohesion and loyalty - telling someone they are chosen, highest degree of glory etc. to join and follow some group. it works too - people "feel the spirit" in so many different groups, and just "know" god loves them soooo much and they are following the right leader etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevation_(emotion) - "a distinct feeling of warmth and expansion that is accompanied by... attachment to group or person.... herd instinct, animals experience elevation too, groupthink is a social herd construct - not testimony of "truth" - comes from the herd, keeps herds together - a cool thing that usually serves the individuals in that herd well... usually...

This is similar to Catholics purgatory, Buddhist Bardo intermediate state, new age Astral realms, Kamaloka etc. etc. Many Christian groups hold the point of the Millennium is bringing the rest of humanity to their various belief systems (like JW's, 7th day, pentacostal, even Messianic Jewish groups). Everyone - all the grouos believe Jesus will come, then every knee will bow and every tongue confess that xyz was the "true" group all along haha, with ideas like 144,000 chosen who will have special privileges and eternally rule over everyone else. I'll have no part in any heirarchies - follow no man or woman. I ask my students "what is the difference between plagiarism and research?" Answer - plagiarism uses only one source. The best paths do not follow a single person or a single group. Where agreement is found between many independent groups, that's the closest we can get, and even that's not certain. Healthy relashionships are like healthy research - diverse sources, no heirarchy, no one pridefully thinking their opinions are the only authority, everyone willing to completely change their mind on everything. Life is like a mystery novel - you get yourself convinced of one scenario, but then some new piece of info pops up that changes everything. Has anyone else here experienced a change in belief? Example: I used to believe my grandmother was a control freak, always telling grampy what to do, what food to order, who to vote for, bills, schedules - grampy never said anything, nodded his head and did as told... then grandmother went blind. She wasn't controlling him, she was covering for him. No one knew grampy was illiterate until granny went blind. He didn't order his own food at restaurants because he couldn't read the menu. He couldn't read the cards we sent, or figure out household bills... new piece of info can often change everything. Best to be agnostic, open to new info, really listen to other groups - better research, deeper understanding and appreciation of all. - closer more meaningful relashionships with all. "My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment." - Einstein Certainty in beliefs divide. Deeper understanding and human connections lie within agnostic mindsets. Blind describing elephants.

Nature/nurture, we are products of our environment. Do you have an explanation on why an all-powerful supposedly loving God would place some... or most of humanity into environments that does not lead a person to embrace the LDS church? This is a thread about difficulties around forming meaningful relationships with as many diverse people as possible - having close families no matter the backgrounds or beliefs... so, by their fruits. How many members in each ward are active? what percentage are active? what percentage of families have all chosen to stay in the church? This is not some one-off rare situation we're talking about, not some oddball - that one individual who just doesn't want to be at church.... What percentage in your ward are currently not active? ... hmmmm.... I knew the percentage in my old ward. The majority of the members were not active.

"Do you support or promote any teachings, practices, or doctrine contrary to those of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?" Contrary; opposed, differing, not in agreement, I left the church, had my records removed, after disagreeing with who God supposedly "revealed" (and whom congregation all raised their hands and sustained) as leadership in a certain ward. For those who do not raise their hand to sustain, who do not support who other church leaders firmly believed was revealed to lead..... but then I suppose God did call Judas? so perhaps God also calls pedophiles, and we should have all just gone along with it (most did) - everyone raised their hands, felt the *spirit* - gushed over what a great decision it was to call that pedophile - patted the kids on their heads, testified to those kids what a wonderful thing the priesthood is.... one of those kids no longer talks, is now considered autistic. He's in jail. 40 years without probation, thanks to those outside of the church (no one inside the church would help convict - but they do visit him in jail.... not the kids, but they visit him, and support him.... not the kids... they still just support and sustain him) Support of leaders - that question wasn't designed to catch people practicing child abuse ....

Sorry - religious people who believe in a limited heaven. I see anyone who believes in a limited heaven as loving their church more than people. Difficult to have a meaningful relashionship with anyone who prioritizes and hopes for their particular dogma more than connection with real people. Heaven/goals/greatest hope for some is to be one of the few chosen elect to rule and reign over other lesser individuals who refuse to agree with some dogma. Heaven/goals/greatest hope for others is connection between everyone, all humanity equally loved, equally united, together with everyone - no heirarchy. Heaven for the athiest, tao, zen? It is - Drop of water returns to ocean idea. Energy, information, matter, it is all just mixed together in the end - literally mixed in with everyone and everything - together foreverwith it all - have always been together. That's what brings me peace. "That's just me in a different life", or thinking it all gets mixed into the same bowl in the end. Ultimate togetherness

Love has many meanings. When you are at the pearly gates, according to your beliefs, will you leave all the others behind and waltz into your limited, incomplete heaven without all those other non-believers? Limited heaven beliefs = limited love, shallow bonds, love of church >love of people. If you loved people more than your church, you would reject the Mormon version of heaven. Heaven isn't heaven unless everyone is there. Mormon heaven sounds more like he'll to me - split families, such a small little group who turns their nose up at everyone else - sounds like hell.

I should have said politically and religiously unaffiliated - independent. The degree to which anyone is confident or certain in the belief of their group is the degree of their intolerance, and inability to be united with any other group or outsider. There was a good quote from the movie Conclave - something like - Certainty in one group destroys unity and tolerance with others. I believe in Mormon theology, there is some kind of agreement members make about... bowing their heads and saying their president is "the only person on Earth" with authority kind of a thing? Certainty in one person means not trusting or really listening to other people. "Do you support or promote any teachings, practices, or doctrine contrary to those of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?" - not allowed to be united with anyone or anything outside of the group. Mormons are not the only ones like that, many different groups like loyal followers, reward rote obedience, which destroys the ability to form meaningful relationships with anyone outside the group. Agreeing to only follow one person or one group, is an agreement to not listen to or follow anyone or anything else. It gets worse - perceived close relationships within any of the groups isn't friendships between people, it is friendship to the organization. You might think you have close friends in your church - until you question something - then you find what you thought was a close friendship was smoke and mirrors, people are loyal to group, love the group, not one another. Just animal instinct - herd instinct, herd mentality, groupthink, tribalism - a real psychological phenomenon to conform, follow, protect... lose yourself to find yourself???? no no - lose yourself to groupthink and you have also lost yourself. Everyone easily sees groupthink in others, but has difficulty seeing it within ourselves, we want to belong, we want security, "not my group" - I think independently - I can have friends outside my group - haha - I don't believe it. Follow the crowd and lose your soul. Follow your soul and lose the crowd.... but do not fear the process of isolation, for soon your soul tribe will appear :). dependent/codependent - independent - autonomous - is the first step to having healthy family and friends. I've experienced it all, in various different groups, outside of groups - different on the outside, different type of bond - not covenant bond, not promises to follow kind of bond, but a love of freedom, enjoyment of mystery, humble embracing of the unknown - not controlling, have to enjoy learning and digging into things that are different "You are only free when you realize you belong no place—you belong every place—no place at all." - Maya Angelou

Ex-member here. My parents are JWish, in-laws are Mormons, I have left both of these religious groups - so perspective from multiple demanding religious groups. Walk a mile in their shoes - Imagine, if you can, that your parents/kids/loved ones are devout members of... Heaven's Gate / polygamous offshoot / Sunni Islam - imagine a religious group you very much disagree with, feel is unhealthy for them, is oppressive and wrong on many levels. If you have not experienced having a close family member in a different extremist religious faith this exercise might be difficult for you. By extremist faith - I mean, the walls of their home are covered in pictures reflecting their beliefs, their clothes, their food, proselytizing tracts on every table, and their lives are so wrapped up in their religious beliefs that they have nothing else to talk about except what they have been doing at and for their religious group. I'll use the BITE model: Behavior: from morning prayers and scripture study, to meals and dress, this beloved family member spends all day following strict rules - perhaps gender rules (imagine your daughter bowing down wearing a black hijab cowering, obeying husband, not allowed to work or do anything without approval - I know this is extreme, but please understand that your own views are seen as extreme by others. No one thinks their own views are extreme.... imagine your daughter in a male hierarchy - she is not allowed to question, she is helper, server, a doormat - and imagine your sons acting in authoritarian manner, always calling shots, prideful, ordering women around, etc. it might be "polite" but you clearly see chain of command, who is able to think and command, and who in family has to obey quickly without question.) Information: They have not watched movies, TV shows, news stations that are not in-line with their own religious view. You cannot have a conversation with them about anything outside the *approved* information from their religious group. They do not understand current events, do not understand politics, cannot comment on simple things like fashion trends or music groups or local restaurants because their religious beliefs prevent them from listening to / reading / watching anything that disagrees with the religious views. Thought control: Anything - music, dress - food - culture - anything that does not conform to the religious group is foreign, looked down on, critiqued... image talking to someone with really different political views if different religion is difficult - imagine their face expressions around anything that does not conform to their beliefs. Emotion: Love-bombing, guilt, fear - I fear we will not be together forever - little sad face expressions, they do not see you going to heaven with them, grooming - showing affection not because they love you, but because they have been taught that love-grooming is a way to try and manipulate someone into their belief system. Fake compliments, nervous smiles, overly sappy *trained* love techniques there as pretentious virtue signaling - "see how loving I am? how kind I am?" - when they are putting on a theatrical show to demonstrate how *amazing* their belief system is. Imagine you are there when they get a phone call from someone in their Muslim/polygamous/heaven's gate cult - you watch them get the phone call, see their face light up - how excited they are to talk with *one of their own*, you know they have never loved you, they only love their own belief system, you will never be one of their *tribe*, you are not really part of their family, not *covenant bond* - they are not bonded to you (this is not just a Mormon thing, JW - you are not *called* etc.. They only really love those in their group - you can hear it in their voice, see it on their face. You feel their guarded conversations around you, like talking with a stranger you know disagrees with you, guarded conversations - that is all you get, not genuine connected - like you see when they interact with others in their group. Try to walk a mile in their shoes. Have you seriously read any other scripture outside your own? If you are set in your beliefs, would you appreciate manipulative religious *gifts* from someone trying to convert you to their belief system? Do you believe them when they say something like *they respect your belief* - you know that is not real. The unaffiliated are the only people I have seen who have healthy relationships. Religious people only love their religion, only love people as much as they conform to the religious group (no matter JW, Mormon, Muslim, Jew) ... Until you have left a group, you cannot see or understand what it is like... Plato's cave. They will not be close to you, and visa versa. Plato's cave.