Calm

If you want to accuse Christ of arrogance, go for it. If you actually read Mr. Shorty’s comment, he never accused Christ or God of arrogance. He stated he trusted God, in fact. He did express concern about those who might confuse Christ with mortal authorities, which I deeply agree with him as does I believe church doctrine*** since while we believe Christ and the Father are perfect, no mortal or mortal production is inerrant and we are even counseled, imo, to be wary of those in power/been given authority over others, including ourselves, human inclinations and all. ***https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2024/06/06-what-do-we-mean-when-we-say-the-church-is-true?lang=eng

I think this distinction is essential. If someone believes their current path is God’s only road to heaven that others eventually need to intersect with rather than the best path available at this point and future adjustments will be needed to move even their path to the destination God desires for us, I think this can lead to a lack of self examination/questioning, which lack tends to support our human inclinations for arrogance and self righteousness. If otoh, someone sees their path as good, even the best available, but still expects it’s going to need correction/improvement as time goes on, I think this belief tends to support humility and openness, both to the Spirit and to others….though one might hold the idea correction/improvement is only going to come from God and anyone not of their same beliefs has nothing of value to add to their path and that could lead to arrogance, etc.

I think my parents did me a solid as I don’t remember ever feeling someone who didn’t believe like I did was ultimately headed to a lesser kingdom. Not that I never have been judgmental, I can be very judgmental and arrogant at times, especially when I was younger, but I judged the kingdoms based on how people treated others, not on their beliefs. I think I just never believed that God wouldn’t include good, loving people when he was inviting people to exaltation. My parents emphasized a lot that in the next life we would still be learning new things, Mom was excited about it, so I think I probably latched quite early onto Spirit Prison would provide the opportunity to hear the truth. Plus it just has never made sense to me that anyone would refuse to accept God or reject offered blessings, why would they choose to suffer instead of repent when they knew the truth. I can theoretically discuss why people might not fully accept the Atonement, but it still feels like nonsense. Given eternity, surely even hate and arrogance wears out and people will look for something better and start opening up to love? Satan and the others extending rebellion throughout eternity is just stupid behaviour and surely even they will be smart enough to eventually give it up if only because of boredom. I also don’t understand how one would choose to do or be evil, be so willing to hurt others (I don’t think I have ever wanted to hurt someone, though I know that some of my choices will and still make those choices because of greater need), so when evil happens my gut reasoning is it must be a mental or emotional defect due to mortality because God wouldn’t make our spirits broken and if so, it will of course be absent in the next life and they won’t take pleasure in people’s pain. I am not saying I am right, just that I am unable to understand how I could be wrong (like not being sure if I understand how to solve a math problem rather than assuming the answer provided is wrong because the answer I think is right is different). I am definitely not assuming I know enough to understand people’s eternal natures.

Definitely (whether Christ talked to Joseph in English for the D&C revelation or Joseph reconstructed the knowledge he received into English through the gift of revelation as he would have to have done with the Nephite language because Christ obviously wasn’t speaking in English in his conversations with the disciples, so it’s not his actual words, but a translation). I also know from experience everyone will get something different from reading scriptures, so I find it useful to hear people’s explanations of what they think scriptures mean when they share them rather than just having my own point of view experience so I have a better chance at seeing new and valuable ideas/teachings from these verses.

No, it doesn’t always in my experience. You need to consider where the other person is and how they will likely receive it or even are able to receive it as well. I am not saying one should lie, but sometimes it’s better to not share everything or even very much even if you know it will lead to a misunderstanding (mainly in cases where the other’s reaction would be hurt and defensive because their experiences have led them to read certain things as threats or criticisms/attacks). Since he was criticizing those who wouldn’t reach out if they thought his soul was in danger of going to hell, I don’t see why you see that as anti-Christ.

I think this is true of my daughter, but she got diabetes when she was 12 which aggravated her sleep disorder and anxiety, sending her into withdrawal and denial (about her health, not God) for several years. By the time she shared she no longer believed it was a decade or so after that and my guess is the trauma rewrote some early memories (base this on a few other things she says that contradicts what we saw). Same here. Though the unique teachings about the afterlife of the Church are what help me endure and not get overwhelmed by a sense of loss of all my dreams for myself and my family due to health. Also helps me not get angry at the doctors who made it so much worse than it needed to be. I don’t know if I would have that anticipation that it’s not too late to hold on to in other Christian faiths, though perhaps it would be replaced with it doesn’t matter because the afterlife will be so beautiful I won’t miss anything.

I wouldn’t be surprised if someone did ask him given the other accounts I read, but he was either unable to respond or was too antagonistic to do so. He was likely drunk and it sounds to me like he wasn’t capable of having a coherent conversation. It sounded to me as if crew members were trying to de-escalate the situation when one got attacked since the takedown didn’t happen immediately as he apparently tried to get to the front of the plane several times and it was only close to the end before he got violent that he started yelling about Mormons. This happened in February, but I didn’t see any further information provided. There were several passengers that helped subdue him when he try to assault the crew member. They should get their flight for free as a thank you for resolving the issue, imo. Especially given the delays it caused. Added: This is the Reddit thread below that apparently shared the two firsthand passenger accounts that were later confirmed (at least to the extent a disturbance happened and LEOs were called) by PYOK here: https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2025/02/10/united-airlines-flight-makes-emergency-diversion-to-denver-after-unruly-passenger-tries-to-tackle-flight-attendant-while-shouting-about-mormons/ According to it, it wasn’t just “where are the Mormons?” It was “where are the #&$! Mormons?” So I am thinking he wasn’t in a mood for much conversation with the crew member. Someone suggested it was likely a combo of Ambien, alcohol, and anxiety. Ambien is great when it works, but dangerous when abused and sometimes even when it isn’t (I remember stories shared in my sleep disorder group of one person coming downstairs and finding all the knives in the kitchen on the counter in the morning with no memory of doing it; my mom went into my brother and his wife’s bedroom when she was living with them and was just chatting with them and then started taking her clothes off…which ended the chat quickly; all it’s done for me is make the letters come off the page and start line dancing, but then I have never tried it with alcohol). https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedairlines/comments/1im1wqz/passenger_had_to_be_restrained_midflight_plane/

My daughter is agnostic (which is very easy for me to understand because she hasn’t had the opportunity to understand what the spirit feels like in her adolescence and adult life since her medical issues affect her mental and emotional states so much, so how can she trust any internal state is due to something she can’t experience in other ways?). I deeply, deeply wish it wasn’t so because the knowledge of God’s love is so comforting to me. It is the only thing that hurts me about her not being a believer because I believe the Spirit has told me she will get to where she needs to in the end, I am not to fret over that, but to allow her to walk her own path. I am going to add that I don’t see myself superior to her just because I believe that what I experience is the Spirit. She is a good woman who cares about others and I believe God is supporting and guiding her even if she isn’t aware of it. I have experienced not being able to sense the Spirit, but I never doubted God wasn’t there for me using the Spirit to help me in ways I was unaware of, so why wouldn’t it be the same for my daughter and everyone else? Then of course there is the Light of Christ doctrine which says such is available to all. Perhaps my daughter is even superior to me in her righteousness because she chooses to do right without the conviction of God’s love.

Do we necessarily believe someone’s soul is in jeopardy if we don’t reach out to them? Seems to me we believe God will judge others by the choices they make with the knowledge they are given and if they aren’t given the knowledge because of someone else’s weakness, it can’t doom their souls. Also we believe chances will come after death if they didn’t come in mortality.

Did they have public parks back then in Jerusalem? Seems unlikely. The wealthy and royalty had their large private gardens, but would something like that be accessible? So what would have qualified as a “garden”? An olive grove that is cared for, cultivated that gets translated as a “garden” makes sense to me, especially if the place was at the foot of what was called the Mount of Olives, which apparently was covered with olive groves at one time. And if it’s an olive grove, the possibility of a press nearby also seems reasonable.

I completely agree to the hate…whether it’s because they perceive it as unfair or they are pissed off they can’t replace God, I am opened to both being possibilities, but I lean more to the latter as in they too like Lucifer want the glory. It’s more about pride, imo, than laziness or desire to sin. It sounds to me like they were powerful believers and maybe even leaders in the faith originally and I can easily see resentment and hate building up when they start to desire recognition and don’t get it or they do get it and want more. It is hard for me to see someone who had a powerful witness of Christ not having accepted the demands and harshness of life as how else would they get such a powerful witness if they hadn’t struggled and sought out God first?

He was obviously looking for missionaries to take the discussions.

I think I have heard it three times (all online, though I knew one of them offline as well) and my guess is at least one didn’t know what it actually meant. They were pretty arrogant in other ways as well. In the one case I knew relatively well, the arrogance was self protective imo and very understandable, even if annoying. Hopefully he grew out of need for that self image (the inflated parts and the parts that troubled him).

The description prophets have given of sons of perdition indicate it is pretty rare and definitely not the typical or even not so typical member that leaves the Church because of loss of faith or even desire to sin. Sons of Perdition are those who have had a marvelous testimony of Christ and then rebel—probably for the same reason Lucifer did, pride—and would crucify Christ again even knowing he is our God and Saviour. That type of apostate would be a quite rare individual as Cain seems to be the only one described in scripture (he had the opportunity to talk with God in ways few have had, which is what makes his rebellion so tragic and extreme). While I know of a few faithful members who say they would be sons of perdition if they lost their faith, that seems an odd and unfortunate type of pride to me, boasting of the quality of their faith Quite the contrast to the humility that the Saviour describes of his followers, imo.

This may be why you don’t view what you have heard in the Church as disparaging. (Just saying your filter may be turned lower than many others, which isn’t necessarily an issue if you personally treat non or exmembers well.) Out of curiosity, how do you view a comment that other faiths are pretending or playing at “church”? Do you see that as offensive or not?