Advice on a recent family experience

[Maestrophil]

Hopefully I can write this in a way that makes sense.I feel there is a lot of nuance here that could be lost, but I am hoping I can convey it enough for some helpful feedback.

I especially am interested in the perspective of non-active and/or ex-members. I would ask in the mormon reddit because I know there are many there, but they tend to be the ones who react with spite rather than kindness. I know there are those here that have great insights and tend the respond in a kinder way.

I have 6 adult children. All of them are disaffiliated with the Church to some extent. 3 are mine by birth, and three are my wife's, since we are a blended family. We married when the kids were between 6-14 years old. Both of their other birth parents are very vocally against the LDS faith.

Recently, my wife, sho is an artist, wanted to paint Books of Mormon with her art, and give them as gifts to each of our kids. I wrote my testimony in the ones that went to my birth kiddos, and she to hers. My testimony in each one stated that I loved my kids for the good people they are, and that I respect the paths they choose on their own journeys. I also testified that my strength in hard times comes from Jesus and told them that my belief was that if they ever needed to search for help in struggles, they could always turn to my, and to God. Then re-affirmed that I respected them regardless of if they ever feel that way or not. I believe my wife's testimony was similar.

My children all accepted the gift. My wife's oldest (who is just now at 33 trying to get sober and has always been very opposed to the church) said he would accept the book with an open heart.

Her two daughters, however got very upset and said they would not take the book - then went off on how much 'religious trauma' they have and how poorly they felt they were treated in the church, and how dumb the word of wisdom is, and most hurtfully, how 'greasy' and judged they feel when they come to our home. When my wife asked for examples of what makes them feel that way - they said they didn't have any, they just said things like 'the way you look at us like you are disappointed.' or, 'The way we can hear in your voice that you disapprove of us and think we would be better people if we were in the church." and similar things. My wife was relieved they finally talked about it, but understandably hurt and sad that her daughters feel that way. She is now searching very hard to see what she can do better.

Because of this reaction I reached out to my three kids and asked them to honestly tell me if they ever feel judged by me, and if the BOM we ge them was offensive, and how I can be better in making them feel loved and accepted. My two sons both enthusiastically told me that they never feel judged by me, they know I love and accept them, and they know my testimony comes from an honest place and not out of judgement. yay!

My youngest, a girl, like her sisters, said that while she could not think of specific examples either, that 'it’s just little comments, and i don’t even know if you realize you’re making them.. but like, bringing the aspect of god or religion into a lot of conversations in some way, like i know you probably don’t do that on purpose at all but it can sometimes feel like it’s kinda… passive aggressive i guess if that’s the right word? like it feels like a “i attribute everything to god so you should too” kind of thing?'

So my questions, especially for those who might be in the amenities boat as my (adult) kids are:

1. How much of what they are saying comes from what we are doing and saying, and how much is their own perceptions or interpretations based on their situation.

2. How can we be better as parents in making them feel loved (other than never talking about our faith)?

3. Is it wrong that we ask them not to drink in our home - we don't care or comment if they drink at restaurants or at home when we are present? (The girls said they are upset they can't have a glass of wine at Thanksgiving dinner etc.)

4. Any idea why it's the girls who are upset with us, while the boys seem less so?

Any other insights are welcome, and if you have read this far in this voluminous post - thank you!

We love our kids and want to do all we can to allow them and us to be our full selves around each other,

[MustardSeed]

42 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

We love our kids and want to do all we can to allow them and us to be our full selves around each other

I love that goal. 
you asked for thought from those who are not LDS- I have a really close relationship with my kids in and out of the church, if that perspective is of any interest to you. 

[Devobah]

I have no children, no family members who left the church, nor have any experience with these kinds of things besides a few friends that have left and are on the more vocal side of things regarding church activities. I will attempt to answer these from my perspective and what I have gathered from others.

1. If I'm assuming correctly, your children are agnostic at least. Meaning that they see things differently than you do. Many who have this viewpoint see religion as unnecessary to living a fruitful and moralistic life. You, being religious, will usually see life through the lens of that religion or at least a viewpoint that God is in everything that you do. Their perception comes from being raised religious, but not anymore. They are in a deconstruction or unlearning part of their life, and analyzing life through that lens. Emotions can be erratic during this time because they are seeing the world in a different way. 

2. You could try asking them to clarify, or even clarify for them, what you are feeling when you are giving them these "looks of disappointment." You obviously love your children and see them as children of God even if you believe that they have strayed from the path. Finding a way to say "I love you" without making them feel like you're saying "I still love you" is also going to be key here.

3. In my opinion it is your home. There are still rules of your home and they should respect those rules, regardless of religious affiliation or lens. I eat Thanksgiving dinner with my neighbors some years when I'm back home in California. It's usually at my parent's house. Those neighbors know that there will be no wine there, and they respect that. Your children should also respect that in my opinion.

4. I'm sure there are plenty of threads talking about women's issues in the church. It also has to do with the world dismantling a patriarchal society, which the Church has in spades with the priesthood holders. I've also come to this conclusion: no amount of women on the stand or speakers in conference are going to solve this issue. Speaking as a male, if I were to leave the Church, it likely would be over historical issues rather than policy. But that's just me. Some women are feeling shamed because they made out in the car and their boyfriend touched their butt, or because they wear a dress that reveals their shoulders. We can all do something a bit better to be less judgmental in our lives. 

Ultimately it comes down to viewpoints. You have a religious one. Your children don't. Navigating those conversations can be difficult. Being labeled as religious in a lot of today's society will always be the first thing that people see. It might as well be plastered on our foreheads.

There's some change that needs to be done on both sides in accepting the views of the others. But again, I don't have children, and none of my siblings have left the Church. If you would like me to clarify or expand I will do so. Hopefully in a timely manner.

God bless you brother. May your children find peace in your decisions and you in theirs.

[Rain]

5 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

 

Hopefully I can write this in a way that makes sense.I feel there is a lot of nuance here that could be lost, but I am hoping I can convey it enough for some helpful feedback.

I especially am interested in the perspective of non-active and/or ex-members. I would ask in the mormon reddit because I know there are many there, but they tend to be the ones who react with spite rather than kindness. I know there are those here that have great insights and tend the respond in a kinder way.

I have 6 adult children. All of them are disaffiliated with the Church to some extent. 3 are mine by birth, and three are my wife's, since we are a blended family. We married when the kids were between 6-14 years old. Both of their other birth parents are very vocally against the LDS faith.

Recently, my wife, sho is an artist, wanted to paint Books of Mormon with her art, and give them as gifts to each of our kids. I wrote my testimony in the ones that went to my birth kiddos, and she to hers. My testimony in each one stated that I loved my kids for the good people they are, and that I respect the paths they choose on their own journeys. I also testified that my strength in hard times comes from Jesus and told them that my belief was that if they ever needed to search for help in struggles, they could always turn to my, and to God. Then re-affirmed that I respected them regardless of if they ever feel that way or not. I believe my wife's testimony was similar.

I stopped believing about a year ago. This would have bothered me, but unless my mom asked I would never tell her. I know she loves me and struggles with my loss of faith so I don't tell her that her efforts actually hurt me.  

Some of it is because with the constant church talk and efforts, it feels like the church is more important than me.  It makes me feel like I have less worth in her life because I don't measure up to church standards.

Don't get me wrong. My parents are full of talk about my worth, too much so when they talk about my artistic talents, charitable work, or being a mom.  So it isn't that they are meaning to say I don't measure up in any way. It's just the constant church talks remind me of what others feel I should be doing to measure up. I think the church pushes talking about the church with children and those not in the faith so much that some members don't know how to just talk normally. 

Second, by giving something like the Book of Mormon to me, it would completely disregard the time and effort I spent praying and studying, just like the church teaches to find out if it were true.  That the answers I've reached by praying somehow aren't good enough because they  don't match a believer's answers.  

Now part of that is a lack of communication, but as someone who has stopped believing that can be really hard to do. We don't want to hurt our loved ones.  We know so many people who seem to be afraid of what we might say, so usually it means that our loved ones don't understand much about us. I told my mom that I stopped believing in June when I saw her.  Last month, when she was here, she asked me a little about that. I take it at her pace and what she is ready for.  It's good that you are being open to your children by listening to them.

5 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

My children all accepted the gift. My wife's oldest (who is just now at 33 trying to get sober and has always been very opposed to the church) said he would accept the book with an open heart.

Her two daughters, however got very upset and said they would not take the book - then went off on how much 'religious trauma' they have and how poorly they felt they were treated in the church, and how dumb the word of wisdom is, and most hurtfully, how 'greasy' and judged they feel when they come to our home. When my wife asked for examples of what makes them feel that way - they said they didn't have any, they just said things like 'the way you look at us like you are disappointed.' or, 'The way we can hear in your voice that you disapprove of us and think we would be better people if we were in the church." and similar things. My wife was relieved they finally talked about it, but understandably hurt and sad that her daughters feel that way. She is now searching very hard to see what she can do better.

Because of this reaction I reached out to my three kids and asked them to honestly tell me if they ever feel judged by me, and if the BOM we ge them was offensive, and how I can be better in making them feel loved and accepted. My two sons both enthusiastically told me that they never feel judged by me, they know I love and accept them, and they know my testimony comes from an honest place and not out of judgement. yay!

My youngest, a girl, like her sisters, said that while she could not think of specific examples either, that 'it’s just little comments, and i don’t even know if you realize you’re making them.. but like, bringing the aspect of god or religion into a lot of conversations in some way, like i know you probably don’t do that on purpose at all but it can sometimes feel like it’s kinda… passive aggressive i guess if that’s the right word? like it feels like a “i attribute everything to god so you should too” kind of thing?'

So my questions, especially for those who might be in the amenities boat as my (adult) kids are:

I can tell this is very hard on you.  You are trying to hard to help them know how much you love them and that you resepct them.  It can be very frustrating somettimes! But so worth it to keep trying.  I love that you are doing this to understand them better.

How much of what they are saying comes from what we are doing and saying, and how much is their own perceptions or interpretations based on their situation.   Impossible to say.  Probably a little of both, but people can see a lot of things that aren't there and people can do a lot of things they don't realize they are doing.  I'm glad you are communicating about it now because that's really the only way you can do anything about it.  I've just found that so many people give hints and so many take hints that are not there so it's best to talk with others who know you and will be honest with you.  

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7. How can we be better as parents in making them feel loved (other than never talking about our faith)? Make sure you do talk about other things.  Like I was saying above some people talk so much about their faith that they don't understand what a constant presence it is.  Go more with the idea of being an example in action and sometimes in words.  Usually people do it the other way - in words and sometimes in actions.  

8.  

9. Is it wrong that we ask them not to drink in our home - we don't care or comment if they drink at restaurants or at home when we are present? (The girls said they are upset they can't have a glass of wine at Thanksgiving dinner etc.) Are you asking if it is a sin?  Even when I had faith I wouldn't have thought it was a sin.  My greater problem with it would have been "Am I condoning it if I allow it to be here? Ask yourself if you would be ok with someone having coffee or tea. If you would be then figure out why there is a difference between them for you.  I can tell you I wouldn't have had a problem with my neighbor bringing his wine glass over on Christmas Eve, but I would have had a problem with my brother bringing a beer.  Why the difference?  Because I knew that the wine didn't change my neighbor in any substantial way while he was there, but the beer did change my brother. Would you be ok with non memebers not living the gospel in other ways in your home?  What ways and why or why not?   So is it wrong?  I think it realy depends on why. I don't think that religious reasons would be a bad thing as it is your home, but if you don't expect them to live religious ways in other things then it would be good to see what is different in your mind here...and it's ok if it is different.

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11. Any idea why it's the girls who are upset with us, while the boys seem less so? Coinicidence. Or maybe you raised them differentlyenough that it made a difference.  Or it could be their time of life or their experiences leaving the church.  

Any other insights are welcome, and if you have read this far in this voluminous post - thank you!

Read "Seven Habits of Highly Effective People", espcially the chapter that talks about empathic listening.  I think it's best to read the whole book to understand the background, but that chapter is one that I wish I would have read decades before I did.  

We love our kids and want to do all we can to allow them and us to be our full selves around each other,

 

 

Now edited with questions answered above.

I can't get this to split for the questions.  I'm going to press submit so I don't lose what I said, and then go to my computer.

 

Edited May 13, 2025 by Rain

[Rain]

Ok, I've gone back and answered your questions now.  I had to put them in a colored font because I never could get the quotes to break.

[Rain]

38 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I love that goal. 
you asked for thought from those who are not LDS- I have a really close relationship with my kids in and out of the church, if that perspective is of any interest to you. 

I think your perspective would be well worth listening to.

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

 

Hopefully I can write this in a way that makes sense.I feel there is a lot of nuance here that could be lost, but I am hoping I can convey it enough for some helpful feedback.

I especially am interested in the perspective of non-active and/or ex-members. I would ask in the mormon reddit because I know there are many there, but they tend to be the ones who react with spite rather than kindness. I know there are those here that have great insights and tend the respond in a kinder way.

I have 6 adult children. All of them are disaffiliated with the Church to some extent. 3 are mine by birth, and three are my wife's, since we are a blended family. We married when the kids were between 6-14 years old. Both of their other birth parents are very vocally against the LDS faith.

Recently, my wife, sho is an artist, wanted to paint Books of Mormon with her art, and give them as gifts to each of our kids. I wrote my testimony in the ones that went to my birth kiddos, and she to hers. My testimony in each one stated that I loved my kids for the good people they are, and that I respect the paths they choose on their own journeys. I also testified that my strength in hard times comes from Jesus and told them that my belief was that if they ever needed to search for help in struggles, they could always turn to my, and to God. Then re-affirmed that I respected them regardless of if they ever feel that way or not. I believe my wife's testimony was similar.

My children all accepted the gift. My wife's oldest (who is just now at 33 trying to get sober and has always been very opposed to the church) said he would accept the book with an open heart.

Her two daughters, however got very upset and said they would not take the book - then went off on how much 'religious trauma' they have and how poorly they felt they were treated in the church, and how dumb the word of wisdom is, and most hurtfully, how 'greasy' and judged they feel when they come to our home. When my wife asked for examples of what makes them feel that way - they said they didn't have any, they just said things like 'the way you look at us like you are disappointed.' or, 'The way we can hear in your voice that you disapprove of us and think we would be better people if we were in the church." and similar things. My wife was relieved they finally talked about it, but understandably hurt and sad that her daughters feel that way. She is now searching very hard to see what she can do better.

Because of this reaction I reached out to my three kids and asked them to honestly tell me if they ever feel judged by me, and if the BOM we ge them was offensive, and how I can be better in making them feel loved and accepted. My two sons both enthusiastically told me that they never feel judged by me, they know I love and accept them, and they know my testimony comes from an honest place and not out of judgement. yay!

My youngest, a girl, like her sisters, said that while she could not think of specific examples either, that 'it’s just little comments, and i don’t even know if you realize you’re making them.. but like, bringing the aspect of god or religion into a lot of conversations in some way, like i know you probably don’t do that on purpose at all but it can sometimes feel like it’s kinda… passive aggressive i guess if that’s the right word? like it feels like a “i attribute everything to god so you should too” kind of thing?'

So my questions, especially for those who might be in the amenities boat as my (adult) kids are:

1. How much of what they are saying comes from what we are doing and saying, and how much is their own perceptions or interpretations based on their situation.

2. How can we be better as parents in making them feel loved (other than never talking about our faith)?

3. Is it wrong that we ask them not to drink in our home - we don't care or comment if they drink at restaurants or at home when we are present? (The girls said they are upset they can't have a glass of wine at Thanksgiving dinner etc.)

4. Any idea why it's the girls who are upset with us, while the boys seem less so?

Any other insights are welcome, and if you have read this far in this voluminous post - thank you!

We love our kids and want to do all we can to allow them and us to be our full selves around each other,

Like the Book of Mormon’s Korihor, who was struck dumb after he demanded a sign from heaven before he would believe in God, your embittered children already know in their heart of hearts (I.e. their spirits) that God is real and that he is a God of truth. Consequently, they are really at war with their own nagging consciences and are merely projecting their own inner spiritual struggle onto you and your wife as convenient scapegoats so that they don’t have to face the fact that they are actually at war with the inner voices of their own better angels. So don’t take it personally. In reality, it would be even more concerning if they were passive and indifferent because it would indicate the inner light of Christ was no longer having much of an impact on their hearts and minds.It was the Savior himself who said it was better to be either cold or warm with regard to the gospel, rather than being uncaring and indifferent.

Ultimately, it’s only the ‘nagging’ inner light of Christ that has any chance of bringing each of us unto Christ with hearts that are sufficiently broken and contrite. Therefore your best path in this struggle is to quietly radiate so much of the joy and love of Christ that the remaining inner light of God within each of your outwardly recalcitrant children will want to bask in the warmth of the Spirit in spite of themselves..

52 And Korihor put forth his hand and wrote, saying: I know that I am dumb, for I cannot speak; and I know that nothing save it were the power of God could bring this upon me; yea, and I always knew that there was a God. (Alma 30)

Edited May 13, 2025 by teddyaware

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Maestrophil said:

 

1. Any idea why it's the girls who are upset with us, while the boys seem less so?

 

I don't know but it seems to be that way with a lot of different topics.  I've seen men get pretty pummelled for sinful behavior in a GC talk, for example, and mostly come out the other side no worse for wear and I've seen women get gently asked to consider changing a behavior, and respond with anger at being judged unfairly or anguish that they are failing so miserably.

(in one ward I was a member of, the topic of all the talks one Father's day was pornagraphy, and though it was a really weird/inappropriate topic for that day in my opinion--which was mentioned by a few men my husband and I were friends with--none seemed to be angered or destroyed by it.  If the talks on Mother's Day were ever on a sin that women struggled with, the responses by the women would not have been similar)

For reasons that aren't always clear, women and men definitely respond differently to similar experiences.  Maybe some of it is just the differences between the way women and men process things or internalize stuff.  I think cultural and familial baggage around gender issues can really add up over the decades and make us fragile in ways that maybe men aren't too.

(I'm sure men are fragile in ways as well)

[MustardSeed]

24 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't know but it seems to be that way with a lot of different topics.  I've seen men get pretty pummelled for sinful behavior in a GC talk, for example, and mostly come out the other side no worse for wear and I've seen women get gently asked to consider changing a behavior, and respond with anger at being judged unfairly or anguish that they are failing so miserably.

(in one ward I was a member of, the topic of all the talks one Father's day was pornagraphy, and though it was a really weird/inappropriate topic for that day in my opinion--which was mentioned by a few men my husband and I were friends with--none seemed to be angered or destroyed by it.  If the talks on Mother's Day were ever on a sin that women struggled with, the responses by the women would not have been similar)

For reasons that aren't always clear, women and men definitely respond differently to similar experiences.  Maybe some of it is just the differences between the way women and men process things or internalize stuff.  I think cultural and familial baggage around gender issues can really add up over the decades and make us fragile in ways that maybe men aren't too.

(I'm sure men are fragile in ways as well)

In my experience, *this ^^is true* , and also women are more likely to notice and meet sensitive needs of others, more likely to demonstrate care.  This is the nurturing side of women that we all hold in esteem- 

that sensitivity in my mind should not just be given to others, but also to ourselves.  Thus, when I’m  hurt, you’re gonna hear about it.  Sometimes in a healthy way, sometimes in an aggressive way.  I live in a world where often men (sometimes women) don’t want to hear about my upset on behalf of myself.  It rubs up against the “rule” that I nurture others over myself. Admittedly I’m messy in my delivery.   
 

Edited May 13, 2025 by MustardSeed

[MustardSeed]

Sorry- that was a digression.  I got lost and thought this was the mother’s day thread.  
 

I’ll share my thoughts on the original  post later today. 

[Senator]

55 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Like the Book of Mormon’s Korihor, who was struck dumb after he demanded a sign from heaven before he would believe in God, your embittered children already know in their heart of hearts (I.e. their spirits) that God is real and that he is a God of truth. Consequently, they are really at war with their own nagging consciences and are merely projecting their own inner spiritual struggle onto you and your wife as convenient scapegoats so that they don’t have to face the fact that they are actually at war with the inner voices of their own better angels. So don’t take it personally. In reality, it would be even more concerning if they were passive and indifferent because it would indicate the inner light of Christ was no longer having much of an impact on their hearts and minds.It was the Savior himself who said it was better to be either cold or warm with regard to the gospel, rather than being uncaring and indifferent.

Ultimately, it’s only the ‘nagging’ inner light of Christ that has any chance of bringing each of us unto Christ with hearts that are sufficiently broken and contrite. Therefore your best path in this struggle is to quietly radiate so much of the joy and love of Christ that the remaining inner light of God within each of your outwardly recalcitrant children will want to bask in the warmth of the Spirit in spite of themselves..

52 And Korihor put forth his hand and wrote, saying: I know that I am dumb, for I cannot speak; and I know that nothing save it were the power of God could bring this upon me; yea, and I always knew that there was a God. (Alma 30)

So now everyone that experiences doubt, questions their beliefs, or steps away from the church, is a Korihor?

That is such a myopic and ignorant statement.

How can you possibly know their hearts?

I'm just glad I cannot find likeminded statements from the leadership of the church. If there was, I might find myself joining the ranks of the disaffected.

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

 

Hopefully I can write this in a way that makes sense.I feel there is a lot of nuance here that could be lost, but I am hoping I can convey it enough for some helpful feedback.

I especially am interested in the perspective of non-active and/or ex-members. I would ask in the mormon reddit because I know there are many there, but they tend to be the ones who react with spite rather than kindness. I know there are those here that have great insights and tend the respond in a kinder way.

I have 6 adult children. All of them are disaffiliated with the Church to some extent. 3 are mine by birth, and three are my wife's, since we are a blended family. We married when the kids were between 6-14 years old. Both of their other birth parents are very vocally against the LDS faith.

Recently, my wife, sho is an artist, wanted to paint Books of Mormon with her art, and give them as gifts to each of our kids. I wrote my testimony in the ones that went to my birth kiddos, and she to hers. My testimony in each one stated that I loved my kids for the good people they are, and that I respect the paths they choose on their own journeys. I also testified that my strength in hard times comes from Jesus and told them that my belief was that if they ever needed to search for help in struggles, they could always turn to my, and to God. Then re-affirmed that I respected them regardless of if they ever feel that way or not. I believe my wife's testimony was similar.

My children all accepted the gift. My wife's oldest (who is just now at 33 trying to get sober and has always been very opposed to the church) said he would accept the book with an open heart.

Her two daughters, however got very upset and said they would not take the book - then went off on how much 'religious trauma' they have and how poorly they felt they were treated in the church, and how dumb the word of wisdom is, and most hurtfully, how 'greasy' and judged they feel when they come to our home. When my wife asked for examples of what makes them feel that way - they said they didn't have any, they just said things like 'the way you look at us like you are disappointed.' or, 'The way we can hear in your voice that you disapprove of us and think we would be better people if we were in the church." and similar things. My wife was relieved they finally talked about it, but understandably hurt and sad that her daughters feel that way. She is now searching very hard to see what she can do better.

Because of this reaction I reached out to my three kids and asked them to honestly tell me if they ever feel judged by me, and if the BOM we ge them was offensive, and how I can be better in making them feel loved and accepted. My two sons both enthusiastically told me that they never feel judged by me, they know I love and accept them, and they know my testimony comes from an honest place and not out of judgement. yay!

My youngest, a girl, like her sisters, said that while she could not think of specific examples either, that 'it’s just little comments, and i don’t even know if you realize you’re making them.. but like, bringing the aspect of god or religion into a lot of conversations in some way, like i know you probably don’t do that on purpose at all but it can sometimes feel like it’s kinda… passive aggressive i guess if that’s the right word? like it feels like a “i attribute everything to god so you should too” kind of thing?'

So my questions, especially for those who might be in the amenities boat as my (adult) kids are:

1. How much of what they are saying comes from what we are doing and saying, and how much is their own perceptions or interpretations based on their situation.

2. How can we be better as parents in making them feel loved (other than never talking about our faith)?

3. Is it wrong that we ask them not to drink in our home - we don't care or comment if they drink at restaurants or at home when we are present? (The girls said they are upset they can't have a glass of wine at Thanksgiving dinner etc.)

4. Any idea why it's the girls who are upset with us, while the boys seem less so?

Any other insights are welcome, and if you have read this far in this voluminous post - thank you!

We love our kids and want to do all we can to allow them and us to be our full selves around each other,

Trying to be as general and objective as I can on a very subjective topic that with many complex personal and interpersonal processes going on:

1. How much of what they are saying comes from what we are doing and saying, and how much is their own perceptions or interpretations based on their situation. Equal parts: since you identified this particular dynamic, your part needs to do and say that which will reach their perceptions and interpretations in a positive way.

2. How can we be better as parents in making them feel loved (other than never talking about our faith)? Listen to them, thank and praise them for sharing their thoughts and feelings, share that s flaws as you are, you are coming from a place of love and want that to shine through first.

3. Is it wrong that we ask them not to drink in our home - we don't care or comment if they drink at restaurants or at home when we are present? (The girls said they are upset they can't have a glass of wine at Thanksgiving dinner etc.) No. Tell them drinking in your home (or significant others sleeping over) has nothing to do with how you love them. If it becomes a conversation, let them know it is a matter of personal conscience and that you have no qualms about theirs when visiting their home. Praise them for something unique they do in their home that you do not do in yours.

4. Any idea why it's the girls who are upset with us, while the boys seem less so? This is probably a function of the times in which we live coupled with the general observation that women are very likely to express emotions and often excel at recognizing and understanding emotions in others. Men don't have as much wherewithal for that, whether evolutionary or an eternal characteristic   (there's another thread that touches on that). Where there has been past family or child-parent trauma, even with the balm of remarriage, the effects of past may color their management of differences between people, whether in expression (girls) or avoidance (boys) of emotional vulnerability.

[JVW]

1 hour ago, Senator said:

So now everyone that experiences doubt, questions their beliefs, or steps away from the church, is a Korihor?

That is such a myopic and ignorant statement.

How can you possibly know their hearts?

I'm just glad I cannot find likeminded statements from the leadership of the church. If there was, I might find myself joining the ranks of the disaffected.

Yes, Senator. Everyone who experiences doubt, questions their beliefs, or steps away from the church is a Korihor.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Any idea why it's the girls who are upset with us, while the boys seem less so?

Girls/women are much more likely to pay attention to nonverbal cues as well as adapt to others’ wishes.  This may be why they reacted to subtle cues and also why they are more upset (because they worked harder to fit in/be good, so now have more intense feelings about it because they ‘invested’ more).

Quote

Women also tend to be superior in reading nonverbal cues. Research reveals that women read people with greater accuracy and more responsive to nonverbal cues than men. A woman can decode behaviors and use this to her advantage. Women have a history of scrutinizing nonverbal behaviors and paying more attention. There are a couple of explanations for this nonverbal acuity. Some social scientists believe it results from women being second-class citizens: When you are in the power-down position, it requires you to read the environment to accommodate those in power. Others hypothesize it stems from being the primary caregiver of children.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/he-speaks-she-speaks/202203/differences-in-nonverbal-cues-between-men-and-women

Edited May 14, 2025 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

4 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Recently, my wife, sho is an artist, wanted to paint Books of Mormon with her art, and give them as gifts to each of our kids. I wrote my testimony in the ones that went to my birth kiddos, and she to hers.

As a non-believer, can I ask why you thought this would be an appropriate gift? Or why you are calling it a gift? My parents (who are as devout as its possible to be), watched my kids while my wife and I went to Spain for business / pleasure. We bought them a hand made expensive nativity music box as a gift and thank you. I want nothing to do with Christianity, but they love it. So I bought it and gave it to them. As a gift. My parents on the other hand routinely gave me nativity ornaments, Christian children books etc (I'm using the past tense here because I'm currently taking a break from them!). Are these "gifts" or not so subtle attempts to fulfill their missionary obligations as taught by your church? Are they attempting to manipulate me (I'm sure they would say hoping that the spirit moves me)? I sure think so. A gift should be something that the giver wants and appreciates. Not an attempt to manipulate. 

[teddyaware]

36 minutes ago, Senator said:

So now everyone that experiences doubt, questions their beliefs, or steps away from the church, is a Korihor?

That is such a myopic and ignorant statement.

How can you possibly know their hearts?

I'm just glad I cannot find likeminded statements from the leadership of the church. If there was, I might find myself joining the ranks of the disaffected.

You allowed yourself to become instantly triggered by the mere mention of the name of Korihor, instead of carefully analyzing what it was that I actually said. The only reason why I brought Korihor into this discussion is because even though he was a hardened professed atheist, in the end he openly testified to the world that in his heart he always knew there was a God. I was pointing to a principle with universal application that’s powerfully exemplified in the story of Korihor, and did so without at all suggesting that Maestrophil’s unbelieving children had somehow morally degenerated to the point of becoming like the desperately evil Korihor. My intention was to instill hope that if even the hardened professed atheist Korihor always knew in his heart that there was a God, there’s great reason to believe that most anyone who becomes verbally hostile to the gospel also knows in his heart of hearts that the gospel is true. The very real hope is that eventually this unacknowledged belief of heart will gain the ascendancy in the end.

Your response amounts to a textbook example of what the prophet Isaiah calls making a man an offender for a word. Calmly employing critical thinking skills rather than succumbing to the temptation to instantly strike out in anger against someone you dislike will serve you well.

[JVW]

I recently invited a sibling to church who I recently reconnected with (about 2 weeks ago after 2 years of separation). She got furious at me for the invitation and ended up doing extra drugs as a result of her "trauma" from the invitation. She is now in the hospital with plans for them to move her into a psych ward. I thought the invitation would be a good excuse for her to reconnect with my wife, some of my kids she met a few years ago, and a new one I now have that she hasn't met yet, and also maybe to have a nice lunch and go to the park. Apparently I'm the evil one and traumatized her by asking and she never wants to speak to me again.

It's your house, it's your rules. I don't allow drinking in my house, but I've lived with a drunk and have an alcoholic sibling. My dad, who is not religious, has a rule of "no doing any illegal drugs in my house" because he could be held liable if the cops were called. That doesn't mean that he hated me when I was a druggie and living with him.

Everyone likes to talk about whatever they like to talk about. If they bring up a topic that you're not interested in do you get offended at them and chew them out? Religion is like the government, there will never not be religion, and people will always talk about it. If you bring up a topic that they don't like, they should say that they don't like the topic and suggest a different topic to talk about. If they are biting their tongue in conversation because they're worried about offending you that's their problem and they should learn to be more communicative. Church is a normal thing. Personal beliefs are personal and influence many aspects of life and conversation. Even if you said nothing of your religion they'll be offended by how your home is styled, or the clothes you wear, or the books you keep on your bookcase. It will always bug them to simply know that you are religious. I don't know why, but I think it's stupid.

I don't know any context to your situation, but the dislike of the church and your association with it is most certainly a symptom of something else. And it probably has something to do with how they were raised. In my own life, for the years in which I was an atheist, I hated religion, but it was because of how my own mom used religion in her interactions with me growing up, it wasn't the religion's fault, it was my mom's.

[MustardSeed]

5 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

Recently, my wife, sho is an artist, wanted to paint Books of Mormon with her art, and give them as gifts to each of our kids. I wrote my testimony in the ones that went to my birth kiddos, and she to hers. My testimony in each one stated that I loved my kids for the good people they are, and that I respect the paths they choose on their own journeys. I also testified that my strength in hard times comes from Jesus and told them that my belief was that if they ever needed to search for help in struggles, they could always turn to my, and to God. Then re-affirmed that I respected them regardless of if they ever feel that way or not. I believe my wife's testimony was similar.

Before I share my philosophy which seems to work well for me, I’d like to understand what you wanted to come of this - the artwork of your religious symbol, and your testimony given to them as gifts. 
For example, were you looking to please God? To stir the kids souls in hopes of sparking a shift? To offer vulnerability in showing them who you are in a way you hadn’t previously in an effort to increase intimacy? To model transparency and expression in hopes that they would be more open with you about their beliefs? 
 

I am not sure I can think of any other possible motivation but I’m curious about yours.  It will shape how you experience my own style of parenting adults and perhaps what I emphasize as I share. Thanks - 

[bluebell]

I have to admit I also wondered the same as some other posters:  Why gift them a BOM?   That kind of seems like giving a vegetarian a steak dinner, a Jewish person a beautiful cross necklace, or an ex-member giving a bottle of wine to their active latter-day saint parents.

I'd love to hear your answers to MS's questions, in order to understand where the gift was coming from. That might help with the question of why it didn't land well for some of your kids.   

[SeekingUnderstanding]

50 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

there’s great reason to believe that most anyone who becomes verbally hostile to the gospel also knows in his heart of hearts that the gospel is true.

It's fine if you want to believe this. But this belief will have consequences in your relationships. Assuming bad faith on those you interact with, especially those close to you is a quick way to end said relationships.

[california boy]

45 minutes ago, JVW said:

I recently invited a sibling to church who I recently reconnected with (about 2 weeks ago after 2 years of separation). She got furious at me for the invitation and ended up doing extra drugs as a result of her "trauma" from the invitation. She is now in the hospital with plans for them to move her into a psych ward. I thought the invitation would be a good excuse for her to reconnect with my wife, some of my kids she met a few years ago, and a new one I now have that she hasn't met yet, and also maybe to have a nice lunch and go to the park. Apparently I'm the evil one and traumatized her by asking and she never wants to speak to me again.

It's your house, it's your rules. I don't allow drinking in my house, but I've lived with a drunk and have an alcoholic sibling. My dad, who is not religious, has a rule of "no doing any illegal drugs in my house" because he could be held liable if the cops were called. That doesn't mean that he hated me when I was a druggie and living with him.

Everyone likes to talk about whatever they like to talk about. If they bring up a topic that you're not interested in do you get offended at them and chew them out? Religion is like the government, there will never not be religion, and people will always talk about it. If you bring up a topic that they don't like, they should say that they don't like the topic and suggest a different topic to talk about. If they are biting their tongue in conversation because they're worried about offending you that's their problem and they should learn to be more communicative. Church is a normal thing. Personal beliefs are personal and influence many aspects of life and conversation. Even if you said nothing of your religion they'll be offended by how your home is styled, or the clothes you wear, or the books you keep on your bookcase. It will always bug them to simply know that you are religious. I don't know why, but I think it's stupid.

I don't know any context to your situation, but the dislike of the church and your association with it is most certainly a symptom of something else. And it probably has something to do with how they were raised. In my own life, for the years in which I was an atheist, I hated religion, but it was because of how my own mom used religion in her interactions with me growing up, it wasn't the religion's fault, it was my mom's.

I have to say, some members are so clueless as to what is appropriate to "give as a gift" to those that have no interest in the Church.  You really think that inviting someone to church who no longer wants anything to do with the Church is a good idea and can't figure out why that is pretty offensive?  What would you think if your sibling gave you a needle and drugs in hopes that you would get high with them?  Or a Book of Mormon as a "gift" as if the person receiving it has never heard of the Book of Mormon or how to get one if they want it.  Would you be grateful if those that left the church in your family told you how much they love you and have offered to you the CES letter in hopes that you will pray over it and find the real truth about Mormonism?   Would you feel loved if everything your children visited you they brought up points they felt would help you from the CES letter?  Would you like it if they testified of the truthfulness of the things contained in the CES letter?  How about constantly asking if you were still going to that looser church or if you have finally seen the light and it is all made up.

My dad used to send me letters when I first came out to him quoting scriptures and hoping that by writing these letters that basically said I was going to hell would entice me back into the Church.  He would always sign the letter with Love from Dad.  Not feeling any love there, just a strong message of judgement and total lack of understanding about who I actually am.  He even suggested that maybe I should find some woman and that would straighten me out.  As if the reason why I am gay is because of my wife????  And not considering that I taught seminary for 6 years and probably could quote way more scriptures than he could.

My hope is, you will see this reply as aggressive and maybe even a bit judgmental towards you.  If I can get you to have those feelings, then you will start to see how your children/relatives see your actions.  Not a lot of love there, but lots of judgement.

 

[manol]

@Maestrophil, the following is of course merely the opinion of one ex-member:

If you and your wife genuinely accept your kids and their life decisions without judgment and without conditions or agendas (hidden or not-so-hidden), I think that will naturally come through without your needing to carefully pick and choose your behavior towards them.

And conversely if you and/or your wife do not genuinely accept your kids and their decisions without judgment and without conditions or agendas, I doubt that any amount of behavior modification on your part will successfully obscure that fact, at least not from the more-sensitive-to-the-energy-in-the-room girls.

Edited May 13, 2025 by manol

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JVW said:

thought the invitation would be a good excuse for her to reconnect with my wife, some of my kids she met a few years ago, and a new one I now have that she hasn't met yet, and also maybe to have a nice lunch and go to the park. Apparently I'm the evil one and traumatized her by asking and she never wants to speak to me again

I am curious (when am I not?).  Feel free to ignore the question if you prefer as it gets into personal space.  
 

Do you regret your choice to offer the invitation and wish you had chosen something more of what she is interested in or something neutral like just the lunch and the park or even simply telling her it would be nice to have a family outing with her and ask her if she would like to make a suggestion or do you see it as solely her responsibility or even that she would have responded that way no matter what?

I am not making a judgment here about how you handled it as I don’t know even close to enough details.  I am just curious about your own viewpoint of your behaviour.  I find how we analyze ourselves to be very informative about a person’s worldview.

Just for additional context for my question, I believe someone’s choice to do drugs is on them at the end of things (at least at the original point, when it becomes an addiction, it’s a different animal).  We can try to help create a stress free environment for those we care about, but we can’t control others’ reactions or interpretations in every way.

 I have a sibling who likely has a personality disorder who has cut me off for years a couple of times, one time it was for pointing out they were chastising me for doing the same thing they had done an hour before (as soon as I said it I knew it was a mistake, but I was tired as I was hosting a family gathering for my son’s mission farewell and I stupidly compounded it by irrationally thinking that my shouting back at her would somehow get through, not my finest hour, maybe in my top ten worst actually).  Another time  (I was older and wiser and had more self control so the visit itself was no eventful) it was for doing exactly what they asked for (they didn’t want people to ask her questions about her life that day, later they complained it was horrible because no one cared enough to ask about her life, she had forgotten her request).  I know the experience of walking on eggshells only to have a little side comment or even nothing at all become the trigger for a blowup.  

I never assume someone getting triggered means the trigger is another’s responsibility even if I think it’s compassionate to do our best to get to know people well enough to know what is supportive for them and what is detrimental.

Edited May 13, 2025 by Calm

[Buckeye]

My general advice for relationships with all adult children - regardless of church activity, lifestyle, etc - is to focus on building up the positive things they’re doing and only addressing the negative when it’s necessary or likely to be productive.

So here, you can make some progress by asking your daughters why they feel judged or that you’re disappointed, but in my experience you’ll get better results by actively complimenting things you approve of. Don’t stop judging; focus instead on positive judgments.

[Chum]

6 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

How much of what they are saying comes from what we are doing and saying, and how much is their own perceptions or interpretations based on their situation.

I think this is an unhelpful measurement. It is the nature of loving, trusting relationships that each side gives an unfair amount. The right measurement is How can I make this better?