manol

This is just my opinion of course, and it's not a response to that particular question; rather, it's a response to what I think the bigger question is: Your relationship with your wife is far, far, far more important than whether you are "right" or she is "right". Even if all the replies in this thread were unanimous as to "who is right", that information doesn't really heal anything, does it? The "healing the relationship" part still has to happen. People vastly more wise than me have commented on how to start the conversation that will lead to healing the relationship, so I'll just toss this out: Imo it is the responsibility of whoever is the most sane in the moment to take the first steps towards peace and healing. (Jesus did not say "Blessed are those who are always right". He said "Blessed are the peacemakers.")

Ooops double post; was trying to edit. My beliefs about how to edit obviously are not yet correct. Or maybe the spirit is willing but the mind is weak.

Well imo, there's believing something about Christ, such as, that he was resurrected; and then there's believing Christ, which would be believing his actual teachings (including the more radical ones) and aligning one's life with them to the best of one's ability. Imo there is utility in both, and it's by no means either/or, but - speaking only for myself here - I prioritize believing and aligning myself to the teachings of Christ moreso than having the correct set of beliefs about Christ.

Good question! And, I may well be mistaken! My recollection is that some of @marineland's recent threads have been in the context of thoroughly preparing to teach a lesson, and I jumped to the conclusion that this was along the same lines.

Your question is about something I quoted from the NDE experiencer's description, so I'm not in a position to answer your question with certainty. My understanding is that the "collective consciousness" she's talking about consists of all of us. So, I think she's saying that it appeared to her that we all participated in the creation of this Earth. Here is the link to her NDE account, in case you'd like to read it in full: https://search.nderf.org/en/experience/6428 If you would prefer: I can try to describe what I think she means by "a collective consciousness" in more detail, but I think it will be different from the traditional LDS viewpoint, and I don't want to unnecessarily muddy the waters with non-Church-aligned ideas when you're preparing to teach a lesson.

Perfect. When I was a home-study seminary student I was accustomed to getting 100% on the tests given in our weekly meetings. The material was not difficult and I was intensely interested in the topics. I recall being stunned to only get 90% on an easy-peasy true-false test. Here is the question I got wrong (paraphrased from memory; this was about forty years ago): "True or false, When the prophet speaks, we should pray to find out whether what he said is true." As you've probably guessed I answered "true", which was marked incorrect. I never did agree with the teachers on that one.

I believe that we all were participants. As background for what I'm about to post, @Calm and I were discussing near-death experiences in another thread where she wrote this: "I believe continuing revelation is necessary. Multiple people sharing their experiences presents us with a fuller picture than we would receive if we considered revelation more one and done." So in the spirit of presenting "a fuller picture", I hope you don't mind me sharing a near-death experiencer's perspective. It is your choice of course whether or not to lend any credibility to it: "The memory of participating in the creation of the solar system was definitely the most unexpected! It sounds like a sacrilege just to mention it. And yet, the collective consciousness that I was part of willed it into being. "I am sorry I cannot tell you exactly how we did it. I remember that it was our collective will and focus that brought it into being. Matter simply formed at our command (one minute it was energy and the next it was matter). It formed in the shape that we willed it to be. I remember how important equilibrium was. Every particle had to be in perfect balance and harmony with the rest. All of the planets had to be in equilibrium with the sun and each other. There was great joy among us, for this creation had a purpose of the highest importance. It would allow us to experience mortality. I cannot tell you if every solar system in the universe was created the same way. I cannot comment about the big bang theory. All I know is that this solar system was created by a collective consciousness and this for a purpose of great importance. Each being of this collective consciousness asked to come to this earth to experience life knowing that each experience would benefit the collective. We each agreed to accomplish a certain mission... "Actually, I stopped thinking in terms of ‘I’ and started thinking in terms of ‘we,’ we the collective consciousness. We had willed it into being. There was a plan in place. We would take turns coming down into mortality and experience life in all of its aspects and bring this experience back to the collective." So according to what this person experienced, we created, or at least participated in the creation of, this earth and this solar system.

That all makes sense to me. Great example! I have tried explaining to my cat that the sequence of events which ultimately results in cat food starts with him getting off my keyboard so that I can meet a deadline. He just blinks at me. Yes! Great insight. The context is different, but in my day job "multiple good looks at something complicated" has been shown to improve comprehension of that complicated something. When the day comes that we each get a good look at everything from every individual's angle, I think we'll be equipped for whatever the next stage is. I heard (and used) the phrase "continuing revelation" quite often when I was active LDS. Where and/or how do you see "continuing revelation" occurring?

How about Joseph Smith's descriptions of his interactions with the Divine? Was that also "speculation"? Ah, you answered my question! Kudos to you for being consistent in your usage of the term! Bingo! Near-death experiencers tend to be acutely aware of the inadequacy of human language for describing what they experienced. "Speculation" is not the term I would have applied to their efforts, but you have explained your usage of the term so I won't cross verbs with you about it. Yes - see my NDE quote below, the part about a matrix within a matrix within another. Amen, sister! And imo here you put your finger on the benefit of exposing oneself to near-death experience accounts: God and the Spirit can nudge us to swallow and digest that which is of benefit to us therein. I hope you don't mind if I pull out an arguably-still-relevant Joseph Smith quotation: “One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from where it may.” And as I'm sure is apparent, I consider near-death experience accounts to be a particularly rich source of truth which can be tested via the Alma Chapter 32 protocol. To illustrate what one might find in NDE accounts, first I will quote from the D&C, followed by some quotes from an NDE: "[L]ight proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space— The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things... even the power of God... who is in the midst of all things... all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever." - from D&C 88 verses 12, 13, and 41 “God is in everything and everything in God, just as life itself... Nothing is outside of God just as nothing is outside of life itself.” “We live in a 'Plural Unity' or 'Oneness'. In other words, our reality is 'Unity in Plurality and Plurality in Unity’.” [<- Imo reminiscent of Jesus' teaching about vine and branches] “The 'creator' is eternally creating, and one of the creations is the practice of conscious love. 'One learns to paint by painting'. That's why this 'temporal human illusory creation' exists as though it were a matrix within another matrix and this, within another - multi-dimensionally until we wake up... Consciously living by love is the essence of life itself and is made manifest or materializes in this plane of existence as a cohesive force to recreate itself in multiple forms...” “I learned thousands of other things without end, and it is difficult to express in words because words are insufficient, they can't describe what I experienced in this other state of consciousness that was much clearer than this one.” - from NDE number 3558 at nderf.org There are thousands of NDE's on that website, with more being added every few days. Imo this constitutes only part of "that which God does now reveal". I speculate that we live in an absolutely amazing time.

Yes good intentions can be harmful when applied lazily. I see this laziness in feel-good "zero tolerance" school policies that punish those who stand up to bullies. We are called to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves", and putting up with the bully's behavior is neither. One might ask, how would we treat someone we deeply love who is being a bully? The answer obviously involves correction and is probably complicated and depends on the specifics, but imo this principle applies: "Hatred ceases not by hatred, but only by love". - the Buddha

@Calm, thank you for finding that. From the part you quoted: So President Oaks (he was First Counsellor at the time) labels near-death experiences as "speculation"? Wow. Disappointing. But wait! From the same quote: So... correct me if I'm mistaken... until it's been taught and/or signed by the Fifteen, President Oaks' statement implying that near-death experiences are merely "speculation" is not "doctrine"! I hate falling back on technicalities, it feels like avoiding the real issue and clutching at straws instead.

@bluebell, thank you for having this conversation with me. I hope you don't mind if I quote something you wrote: Does whether or not his words are "binding" on you depend on whether they were spoken by President Oaks or by Apostle Oaks? And, does whether or not his words are "true" depend on whether they were spoken by President Oaks or by Apostle Oaks?

This is probably wishful thinking: "And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start to mold a new reality closer to the heart." - Rush Well, maybe it can start with us as individuals. Maybe we'll begin to recognize that we cannot simultaneously be in a state of grievance and a state of peace. Maybe we can deliberately and consistently choose peace over our grievances, whether or not our grievances are "justified". Maybe we can decide that treasuring our grievances is no longer worth the cost. I think that would be okay with Christ.

Yes! Sometimes a near-death experiencer is told, during the experience, that he or she is to convey a particular message. Well good for President Oaks for at least not dismissing near-death experiences entirely. Amos 3:7: "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." We might ask: Did the word "prophet" in Amos' day mean the same thing as the word "prophet" does in modern LDS usage? No, it did not. The word meant something like "spokesman", and more particularly, it did not refer to an ecclesiastical office nor to ecclesiastical authority. So, going by what the word meant in Amos' day, could a near-death experiencer who was told by God or Christ or a divine messenger that they were to play a "spokesman" role and convey a particular message be called a "prophet"? And does the parsing of terms and fitting of definitions matter as much as whether or not what they convey is actually true? Seems to me that would be paramount, and for that we can always run the Alma Chapter 32 test.

While neither informed nor Catholic, I am definitely curious... ?? You didn't address these questions to me, and my opinion on this subject is probably not going to be a very popular one. Obviously that isn't stopping me... It seems to me that the LDS Church was arguably the nexus for revelation during the time of Joseph Smith, but for whatever reason that no longer appears to be the case. It seems to me that "that which God does now reveal" is showing up in great abundance through channels unaffiliated with this or any other religion. One such channel is the first-hand accounts of near-death experiencers, wherein there is (imo) a great deal of "revelation" regarding such topics as who and/or what we are; who and/or what God is; the way things really are; and what really matters in this life.