manol

This is just my opinion of course, and it's not a response to that particular question; rather, it's a response to what I think the bigger question is: Your relationship with your wife is far, far, far more important than whether you are "right" or she is "right". Even if all the replies in this thread were unanimous as to "who is right", that information doesn't really heal anything, does it? The "healing the relationship" part still has to happen. People vastly more wise than me have commented on how to start the conversation that will lead to healing the relationship, so I'll just toss this out: Imo it is the responsibility of whoever is the most sane in the moment to take the first steps towards peace and healing. (Jesus did not say "Blessed are those who are always right". He said "Blessed are the peacemakers.")

Ooops double post; was trying to edit. My beliefs about how to edit obviously are not yet correct. Or maybe the spirit is willing but the mind is weak.

Well imo, there's believing something about Christ, such as, that he was resurrected; and then there's believing Christ, which would be believing his actual teachings (including the more radical ones) and aligning one's life with them to the best of one's ability. Imo there is utility in both, and it's by no means either/or, but - speaking only for myself here - I prioritize believing and aligning myself to the teachings of Christ moreso than having the correct set of beliefs about Christ.

Good question! And, I may well be mistaken! My recollection is that some of @marineland's recent threads have been in the context of thoroughly preparing to teach a lesson, and I jumped to the conclusion that this was along the same lines.

Your question is about something I quoted from the NDE experiencer's description, so I'm not in a position to answer your question with certainty. My understanding is that the "collective consciousness" she's talking about consists of all of us. So, I think she's saying that it appeared to her that we all participated in the creation of this Earth. Here is the link to her NDE account, in case you'd like to read it in full: https://search.nderf.org/en/experience/6428 If you would prefer: I can try to describe what I think she means by "a collective consciousness" in more detail, but I think it will be different from the traditional LDS viewpoint, and I don't want to unnecessarily muddy the waters with non-Church-aligned ideas when you're preparing to teach a lesson.

Perfect. When I was a home-study seminary student I was accustomed to getting 100% on the tests given in our weekly meetings. The material was not difficult and I was intensely interested in the topics. I recall being stunned to only get 90% on an easy-peasy true-false test. Here is the question I got wrong (paraphrased from memory; this was about forty years ago): "True or false, When the prophet speaks, we should pray to find out whether what he said is true." As you've probably guessed I answered "true", which was marked incorrect. I never did agree with the teachers on that one.

I believe that we all were participants. As background for what I'm about to post, @Calm and I were discussing near-death experiences in another thread where she wrote this: "I believe continuing revelation is necessary. Multiple people sharing their experiences presents us with a fuller picture than we would receive if we considered revelation more one and done." So in the spirit of presenting "a fuller picture", I hope you don't mind me sharing a near-death experiencer's perspective. It is your choice of course whether or not to lend any credibility to it: "The memory of participating in the creation of the solar system was definitely the most unexpected! It sounds like a sacrilege just to mention it. And yet, the collective consciousness that I was part of willed it into being. "I am sorry I cannot tell you exactly how we did it. I remember that it was our collective will and focus that brought it into being. Matter simply formed at our command (one minute it was energy and the next it was matter). It formed in the shape that we willed it to be. I remember how important equilibrium was. Every particle had to be in perfect balance and harmony with the rest. All of the planets had to be in equilibrium with the sun and each other. There was great joy among us, for this creation had a purpose of the highest importance. It would allow us to experience mortality. I cannot tell you if every solar system in the universe was created the same way. I cannot comment about the big bang theory. All I know is that this solar system was created by a collective consciousness and this for a purpose of great importance. Each being of this collective consciousness asked to come to this earth to experience life knowing that each experience would benefit the collective. We each agreed to accomplish a certain mission... "Actually, I stopped thinking in terms of ‘I’ and started thinking in terms of ‘we,’ we the collective consciousness. We had willed it into being. There was a plan in place. We would take turns coming down into mortality and experience life in all of its aspects and bring this experience back to the collective." So according to what this person experienced, we created, or at least participated in the creation of, this earth and this solar system.

That all makes sense to me. Great example! I have tried explaining to my cat that the sequence of events which ultimately results in cat food starts with him getting off my keyboard so that I can meet a deadline. He just blinks at me. Yes! Great insight. The context is different, but in my day job "multiple good looks at something complicated" has been shown to improve comprehension of that complicated something. When the day comes that we each get a good look at everything from every individual's angle, I think we'll be equipped for whatever the next stage is. I heard (and used) the phrase "continuing revelation" quite often when I was active LDS. Where and/or how do you see "continuing revelation" occurring?

How about Joseph Smith's descriptions of his interactions with the Divine? Was that also "speculation"? Ah, you answered my question! Kudos to you for being consistent in your usage of the term! Bingo! Near-death experiencers tend to be acutely aware of the inadequacy of human language for describing what they experienced. "Speculation" is not the term I would have applied to their efforts, but you have explained your usage of the term so I won't cross verbs with you about it. Yes - see my NDE quote below, the part about a matrix within a matrix within another. Amen, sister! And imo here you put your finger on the benefit of exposing oneself to near-death experience accounts: God and the Spirit can nudge us to swallow and digest that which is of benefit to us therein. I hope you don't mind if I pull out an arguably-still-relevant Joseph Smith quotation: “One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from where it may.” And as I'm sure is apparent, I consider near-death experience accounts to be a particularly rich source of truth which can be tested via the Alma Chapter 32 protocol. To illustrate what one might find in NDE accounts, first I will quote from the D&C, followed by some quotes from an NDE: "[L]ight proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space— The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things... even the power of God... who is in the midst of all things... all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever." - from D&C 88 verses 12, 13, and 41 “God is in everything and everything in God, just as life itself... Nothing is outside of God just as nothing is outside of life itself.” “We live in a 'Plural Unity' or 'Oneness'. In other words, our reality is 'Unity in Plurality and Plurality in Unity’.” [<- Imo reminiscent of Jesus' teaching about vine and branches] “The 'creator' is eternally creating, and one of the creations is the practice of conscious love. 'One learns to paint by painting'. That's why this 'temporal human illusory creation' exists as though it were a matrix within another matrix and this, within another - multi-dimensionally until we wake up... Consciously living by love is the essence of life itself and is made manifest or materializes in this plane of existence as a cohesive force to recreate itself in multiple forms...” “I learned thousands of other things without end, and it is difficult to express in words because words are insufficient, they can't describe what I experienced in this other state of consciousness that was much clearer than this one.” - from NDE number 3558 at nderf.org There are thousands of NDE's on that website, with more being added every few days. Imo this constitutes only part of "that which God does now reveal". I speculate that we live in an absolutely amazing time.

Yes good intentions can be harmful when applied lazily. I see this laziness in feel-good "zero tolerance" school policies that punish those who stand up to bullies. We are called to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves", and putting up with the bully's behavior is neither. One might ask, how would we treat someone we deeply love who is being a bully? The answer obviously involves correction and is probably complicated and depends on the specifics, but imo this principle applies: "Hatred ceases not by hatred, but only by love". - the Buddha

@Calm, thank you for finding that. From the part you quoted: So President Oaks (he was First Counsellor at the time) labels near-death experiences as "speculation"? Wow. Disappointing. But wait! From the same quote: So... correct me if I'm mistaken... until it's been taught and/or signed by the Fifteen, President Oaks' statement implying that near-death experiences are merely "speculation" is not "doctrine"! I hate falling back on technicalities, it feels like avoiding the real issue and clutching at straws instead.

@bluebell, thank you for having this conversation with me. I hope you don't mind if I quote something you wrote: Does whether or not his words are "binding" on you depend on whether they were spoken by President Oaks or by Apostle Oaks? And, does whether or not his words are "true" depend on whether they were spoken by President Oaks or by Apostle Oaks?

This is probably wishful thinking: "And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start to mold a new reality closer to the heart." - Rush Well, maybe it can start with us as individuals. Maybe we'll begin to recognize that we cannot simultaneously be in a state of grievance and a state of peace. Maybe we can deliberately and consistently choose peace over our grievances, whether or not our grievances are "justified". Maybe we can decide that treasuring our grievances is no longer worth the cost. I think that would be okay with Christ.

Yes! Sometimes a near-death experiencer is told, during the experience, that he or she is to convey a particular message. Well good for President Oaks for at least not dismissing near-death experiences entirely. Amos 3:7: "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." We might ask: Did the word "prophet" in Amos' day mean the same thing as the word "prophet" does in modern LDS usage? No, it did not. The word meant something like "spokesman", and more particularly, it did not refer to an ecclesiastical office nor to ecclesiastical authority. So, going by what the word meant in Amos' day, could a near-death experiencer who was told by God or Christ or a divine messenger that they were to play a "spokesman" role and convey a particular message be called a "prophet"? And does the parsing of terms and fitting of definitions matter as much as whether or not what they convey is actually true? Seems to me that would be paramount, and for that we can always run the Alma Chapter 32 test.

While neither informed nor Catholic, I am definitely curious... ?? You didn't address these questions to me, and my opinion on this subject is probably not going to be a very popular one. Obviously that isn't stopping me... It seems to me that the LDS Church was arguably the nexus for revelation during the time of Joseph Smith, but for whatever reason that no longer appears to be the case. It seems to me that "that which God does now reveal" is showing up in great abundance through channels unaffiliated with this or any other religion. One such channel is the first-hand accounts of near-death experiencers, wherein there is (imo) a great deal of "revelation" regarding such topics as who and/or what we are; who and/or what God is; the way things really are; and what really matters in this life.

The relevant New Testament scriptures tend to be "conditional", as far as I can tell, when it comes to the resurrection. That can be problematic if your father was not a "believer": "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." John 11:25 (theoretically not of much comfort to family members if your father was not what they would consider to be a "believer".) Here is one that is not obviously conditional: “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:4 For my father's funeral (he was Presbyterian) I went with the 23rd Psalm, recited slowly and deliberately. Not that it's especially big on deep LDS-compatible doctrine, but it IS rather poetic and longer than a single verse, which gives time for the Spirit to be felt. So it's sort of like a song where the message is mostly in the melody rather than mostly in the lyrics: "The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever." The 23rd Psalm, King James Version If the family members are not accustomed to King James language, maybe the English Standard Version: "The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters. He restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name’s sake. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; you anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the LORD forever." May the Lord be with you and with Patti and with all of your family.

My recollection is that one of the intentions of switching to the 3 hour block (at least in the United States) was to reduce the economic burden caused by the greatly increased price of gasoline due to the Arab oil embargo which followed the Yom Kippur war. The Yom Kippur war was in October of 1973.

Going back even further, women anointed and blessed the sick with the full approval of the Pesident of the Church, and it was not because of a lack of priesthood holders. I look forward to the day when there are zero constraints imposed by the Church on women, or anyone else, using their gifts.

I'm not much into the history of Utah but about thirty years ago I read a very enlighening paper by a college student. She examined the economy of Utah between the time the Mormons first settled there (1846) and the completion of the Transcontinental Railroad (1869). During this time period there was relatively little commerce between Utah and the United States (which lay to the East, on the other side of the Rocky Mountains), so the Utah economy developed pretty much independent of the US economy. The US economy was market-based capitalism, and during this time the Utah economy was a blend between market-based capitalism and influence by the LDS Church. My recollection is that there were two prominent business ventures launched with the support of the LDS Church in this time period: A sugar beet farming-and-processing venture, and a soap factory. The primary intention was to lift the whole community, and so (if I recall correctly) shares in these businesses were made available to poor people as well as wealthy people, so that everyone could benefit from the businesses' success. The rich did not buy up all of the shares. I don't recall how this was managed, but it was a deliberate departure from pure capitalism. And the Utah Valley economy worked well... until the completion of the Transcontinental Railroad. Once the railroad was up and running, Utah businesses had to compete with more cheaply-and-efficiently produced goods, and a wider variety (and often higher quality) thereof, from the East. In the short term the Utah economy got clobbered by the considerably-more-robust US economy. What had happened is this: During the timespan from 1846 to 1869, the US economy grew at a faster rate than did the Utah economy. So, measured by that yardstick, the experiment with trying to do a more "community-oriented, more considerate-of-the-poor" version of capitalism was a failure. But I came away from reading that paper with an admiration for what the Mormons had tried to do, even if it ended up being less efficient than the free-market economy of the United States.

Bingo! If a set of premises are followed to their logical conclusion, and that conclusion is absurd, then one or more of those premises must be also have been absurd. To put it another way, there is "new wine" out there which is delicious to the soul, but it will burst the old wineskins, or the old paradigms; it does not include the old fear-based premises, and so it does not arrive at fearful conclusions. Or to use a different metaphor: There is an alternative "radio station" we can tune in to, and it does not broadcast on the frequency of fear. It does not ask us to accept the absurd. It forgives everyone of everything. It does not impose itself on anyone, as infinite patience is among its attributes. It proceeds forth from The Presence and fills the immensity of space. We have been told many times to "Seek, and you shall find", as well as to "Be of good cheer (or words to that effect)", which would be absurd if what we're supposed to seek and find is not actually Good News after all. In my opinion.

^^^This^^^ And maybe not only in that moment. Maybe "I am the vine and you are the branches" is the reality, even if that reality is well beyond our current perception. Edit: I suggest watching the first one minute and two seconds of this NDE compilation video, with captioning if needed. It just posted today, and I haven't watched the rest of it yet, but the first one minute and two seconds jumped out at me in the context of that bit I quoted from @Calm's post. Imo this falls under the category of "all that God does now reveal":

On the morning of February 14th, police in North Carolina responded to a report of a shooting and found Ukrainian refugee Kateryna Tovmash and another adult deceased. Her ex-boyfriend was arrested and charged. The photo accompanying the article seems to show Kateryna outside an LDS temple. Photo and article at this link: Ukrainian refugee shot dead in North Carolina (msn.com) The implication seems to be that she was LDS... ?

Well that's not me, but... There was this guy in our ward in a similar situation who decided he would greet people. He would hang out near the main doors and open them for people and welcome them, and he kept an eye out for any new faces and made sure they felt especially welcome. It wasn't a big thing, or was it? We had at one person say that the tipping-point for their decision to return to activity was how warmly that guy welcomed them when they showed up at church for the first time in many years.

Adding to the comments preceding, this: We shared a building with a Spanish branch and their branch president was undocumented. He later became a counselor in the stake presidency. Actually those are two very different things, and the law makes the distinction. There is "mala prohibita", and then there is "mala in se". Being in the US illegally falls into the category of "mala prohibita", which refers to "acts that are prohibited by law and not because they are evil". Robbery falls into the category of "mala in se", which refers to "acts that are inherently evil regardless of whether they are prohibited by law." The one is something that became a crime at the stroke of a pen; and the other is evil by its very nature, whether regardless of what the law says. Those are two very different categories, and imo not realizing this distinction can result in good people supporting or acquiescing to legislated (or non-legislated, as the case may be) evil. ^^^This^^^

@Kenngo1969 points out a distinction that imo is highly relevant: For those who Latinam non loquuntur: "mala prohibita" = "acts that are prohibited by law and not because they are evil"; and "mala in se" = "acts that are inherently evil regardless of whether they are prohibited by law." @Calm, I understand your cautious approach towards good intentions which do more harm than good. Those "good intentions which do more harm than good" could either be turning someone in, or not turning someone in. Imo whether what the person did is evil by its very nature, or wrong because it is prohibited by law and not because it is inherently evil, makes a difference. * * * * It seems to me that a common denominator on both sides of this issue, and on both sides of many issues, is fear. "We" claim valid reasons to fear "them". And/or, we don't mind demonizing them to lend validity to our fear-based attitudes (and choices and actions). I must admit that I participate in this right alongside those I agree with, although it is much easier for me to point out the fear-based attitudes of those I disagree with. Is there a state of being or level of being at which fear simply does not exist? Maybe so. It has been said that "perfect love casts out fear". I am definitely not there yet, but I think it's worth aspiring to, as an experiment if nothing else.