GoCeltics

Just to clarify, when you use the term "gods" for those at the heavenly council, do you mean exalted and glorified beings with resurrected bodies?

When you say “gods,” are you referring specifically to spirit children of Heavenly Father who were already exalted beings at the time of this council? Or are you also including some members of a broader lineage or regress of Deities who may have participated?

Do you mean he ruled over the heavenly council, he rules over other exalted beings which are not part of the family he formed during his married life, or both?

Which gods?

What of biblical verses which speak of only God one?

Thank you for your kind words Rory.

When did the idea arise that the Godhead consists of three separate Gods?

You're assuming the supposed cycle for this Earth has to match the pattern followed by every being who was formed into a God before Heavenly Father attained godhood.

What does being non-divine mean for Him?

What's your perspective on this General Conference talk? In contrast, many Christians reject the idea of a tangible, personal God and a Godhead of three separate beings. They believe that God is a spirit and that the Godhead is only one God. In our view, these concepts are evidence of the falling away we call the Great Apostasy. I’ve been reading about how God is described as a spirit—for example, in Alma 18:26 28, where God is called the “Great Spirit.” At the same time, passages like 3 Nephi 11:36, 2 Nephi 31:21, and Doctrine and Covenants 20:28 talk about the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as being “one God.” Some questions: When did the idea arise that the Godhead consists of three separate Gods? When did the view that God is a spirit start to be considered incorrect? Related question: If God was not married and did not have a physical body, could we still be considered as being created in his image?

Humans are so smart. They would never build something like Skynet 🤫

Something that stood out to me in the church's Old Testament Study Guide was a clarification about Pharaoh’s heart in Exodus. Exodus 7:3, footnote a, includes an important clarification from the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible. It explains that the Lord did not harden Pharaoh’s heart but that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. As the Prophet Joseph Smith was working on his inspired translation of the King James Version of the Bible, he corrected each indication that the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart because in each case, Pharaoh had hardened his own heart (see Joseph Smith Translation, Exodus 7:13 [in Exodus 7:13, footnote a]; 9:12 [in Exodus 9:12, footnote a]; 10:1 [in Exodus 10:1, footnote a], 20 [in Exodus 10:20, footnote a], 27 [in Exodus 10:27, footnote a]; 11:10 [in Exodus 11:10,footnote a]). This lines up with a shorter note in this week’s Come Follow Me lesson - “Note the clarification in the Joseph Smith Translation of Exodus 7:3, 13; 9:12.” I’d argue it’s less about clarification and more about replacing what the Bible teaches. Across the broader biblical text, the King James Version’s wording about who hardens Pharaoh’s heart is actually consistent with other major sources, including the English Standard Version (ESV), the New American Bible, Revised Edition (NABRE), and the Hebrew Masoretic Text. In passages where Pharaoh is the one hardening his own heart, all of these sources say so. And in passages where God is described as hardening Pharaoh’s heart, they consistently attribute it to God as well. Below, I’ll look at how the JST approaches the biblical passages. Where the JST reassigns the hardening from God to Pharaoh (the first being the king of Heshbon) Deuteronomy 2:30; Exodus 4:21; Exodus 7:3, 9:12, 10:1,20,27, 11:10, 14:4,8,17 In Joshua 11:20, the JST alters the meaning of the verse and re-orders the words. KJV: “For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.” JST: “For it was of the LORD to destroy them utterly, because they hardened their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that they might have no favour, that they might destroy them in battle as the Lord commanded Moses.” Where Pharaoh is already said to harden his own heart The KJV attributes the hardening to Pharaoh in several places; the JST leaves them unchanged: Exodus 8:15,32, 9:34–35 The notion that God hardens people’s hearts shows up in several other parts of the Bible. The JST leaves them unchanged. Isaiah 63:17 KJV: “O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake.” JST: “O LORD, why hast thou suffered us to err from thy ways, and to harden our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants’ sake.” John 12:40 KJV: “He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart.” JST: “He hath blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, that they should not see with their eyes nor understand with their heart.” Romans 9:18 KJV: “Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” JST: “Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.”

I’m modifying the last part of my previous reply because I wanted to address the aspect of fully completing the job. The tools — God’s grace — are already sufficient before they are ever placed in your hands. Their sufficiency isn’t created by your use of them. If someone fails to use those tools and fully complete the job, that failure does not make the tools themselves insufficient. The adequacy was always there. The issue is not a lack in the grace, but a refusal to rely on it. The sufficiency remains constant, regardless of the response. If you’ re saying that God did not provide you with the tools needed to fully complete the job, then that would imply His grace was insufficient for you. In that case, it would seem improper for Him to have given you the task without properly equipping you for it. I read the article “His Grace Is Sufficient” in the Ensign, and nothing in it indicates that God’s grace becomes sufficient only after certain criteria are met. Can you provide an example where God gave you the grace to complete a task, yet the failure to complete it was due solely to the insufficiency of His grace and not anything on the your part?

Our shortcomings or failing of the grace of God doesn’t make His grace insufficient. If you’re thirsty and someone hands you a glass of water, that water is already sufficient to quench your thirst. It doesn’t become sufficient only after you drink it. Its sufficiency isn’t dependent on whether you accept it or when you choose to drink it. I’m not talking about the availability of the water or the moment it’s applied. I’m focusing on when it is sufficient — and it is sufficient in itself, regardless of what you do with it. God’s grace is sufficient even for the atheist before he is saved. Its sufficiency does not begin at the moment of faith — it already exists in full. However, it is not fully realized in that person until faith responds to it. Is God’s grace sufficient to save him? Yes. Is it sufficient if he begins the journey but later falls away? Yes. The sufficiency of grace was never the issue. The question is not whether grace was enough, but whether it was received and relied upon. If someone ultimately fails, it is not because God’s grace was insufficient, but because he refused to make use of what was fully sufficient all along. God’s grace was already sufficient before it was ever applied to Paul’s situation — commonly understood to relate to his eyes. The sufficiency wasn’t created in the moment it was given. It already existed. When God said, “My grace is sufficient for you” (2 Corinthians 12:9), He wasn’t making it sufficient at that point. He was declaring a sufficiency that was already fully present. Application does not create sufficiency — it reveals it. Moroni 10:32 refers to the IF / THEN condition. “Be perfected” equates to “become perfect.” “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him”, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.” His grace does not become sufficient in order to make you perfect in Christ. It is already sufficient. Its sufficiency is what enables that perfection, but it does not depend on you. The power and completeness are in the grace itself — not in your performance, not in your effort. It’s not about you achieving something that makes grace effective. It’s all about Christ and what He has already accomplished. Exactly. The tools — God’s grace — are already sufficient before they are ever placed in your hands. Their sufficiency isn’t created by your use of them. If someone fails to use those tools, that failure does not make the tools themselves insufficient. The adequacy was always there. The issue is not a lack in the grace, but a refusal to rely on it. The sufficiency remains constant, regardless of the response.

Hebrews 12:14-15 does not teach Christ’s grace is insufficient if a person fails of the grace of God. There are several aspects to grace. First: Is God’s grace sufficient? Yes. Is it sufficient before following all the conditions laid out in Moroni 10:32? Yes. Second: When does God’s grace become sufficient? According to the Bible, God’s grace is described as sufficient in the midst of human weakness, not after a person reaches a certain level of worthiness or perfection. The clearest statement comes from 2 Corinthians 12:9, where the Apostle Paul recounts the Lord telling him: “My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.” In that context, Paul had asked for a hardship to be removed, but instead God declared that His grace was already enough. The sufficiency of grace was not dependent on Paul overcoming the weakness first. Rather, grace operates precisely in weakness. Other related passages reinforce this idea: Romans 5:20 — “Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.” Hebrews 4:16 — “Believers are invited to come boldly to receive mercy and find grace “in time of need.” From these passages, the biblical pattern suggests: Grace is sufficient when we are weak. Grace is available in time of need. Grace is not portrayed as becoming sufficient only after human perfection. Third: Is it possible to fail to take advantage of something that is already sufficient? Yes. Fourth: Does that somehow cancel out or invalidate the sufficiency of that grace? No. Several church articles define grace (see examples one and two). There’s nothing in those passages suggesting that God’s grace is somehow insufficient and only becomes sufficient after someone fulfills every condition laid out in Moroni 10:32. If God gives you a hammer for a job, that hammer is sufficient for the task. If He gives you a wrench, the wrench is sufficient for its purpose. Can you fail to benefit from what you’ve been given? Of course — simply by refusing to use it. But your refusal doesn’t make the tool inadequate. It just means you chose not to use something that was already sufficient.