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bluebell

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Everything posted by bluebell

  1. It’s sad about all the crime in those neighborhoods. I feel bad for people who live there and have for decades.
  2. The muskets thing is very tame without having to compare it to any other talks, but no doubt some horrible things have been said in the past, especially by local leaders.
  3. Has there been a lot of military or war rhetoric to town down? Hasn’t it just been that one talk to BYU students about “metaphorical muskets”?
  4. Sometimes. And sometimes kids are just really dumb. We had a really dumb kid go through our neighborhood and tag all sorts of houses with swear words and other graffiti, including the church. Genius actually included his instagram in the graffiti, and his instagram included his picture, real name, and the jr. high he attended. That crime of the century was solved in 30 minutes. But I think that often, when it includes specifics against the church, that it's probably some kind of a personal thing. Either based on actual real life experience or stuff they've read or heard from others.
  5. First, I don't think that you are too sensitive (maybe you are, I have no idea, but that's not what I meant by that statement). I just think that you have a very broad definition of hostile and that you seem to hold other people accountable to your definition, whether or not they agree with it. I don't say that to make an argument about it; it was an observation that was kind of an 'a ha!' moment for me that helped me understand your posts a bit better. Second, I would describe a hostile relationship as one that is combative or where I was viewed (or viewed someone else) as an enemy. I might see a group of people trying to disband a gay/straight alliance in a public school as hostile. It would probably depend on their reasons. I can think of some reasons that it might be right to disband such a club, and many others where it would be wrong.
  6. Though I'm sure that there have been both leaders and members who have been hostile (and who have said hostile unChristlike things), I'm with Blue Dreams on why I don't view disagreement and discrimination as hostile or unfriendly in and of themselves.
  7. No it really doesn't. Elder Holland said "“My Brethren have made the case for the metaphor of musket fire which I have endorsed yet again today. There will continue to be those who oppose our teachings and with that will continue the need to define, document, and defend the faith." How does a call to 'define, document, and defend the faith' with metaphorical defenses at all equal holding up the lgtbq community as "villains and bastions of immorality that must be stopped"? That's not a reasonable interpretation. Especially when Elder Holland also said "Let me go no farther before declaring unequivocally my love and that of my Brethren for those who live with this same-sex challenge and so much complexity that goes with it. Too often the world has been unkind, in many instances crushingly cruel, to these our brothers and sisters.” How thin does someone's skin have to be--how much do they have to wrestle the meaning of the phrases "villains" and "bastions of immorality"--to hear those quotes and come away with that kind of an interpretation? Disagree with the quotes, sure. There's always room for that. But try to make that quote be an example of vilification and labeling the lgtbq community as a "bastion of immorality"? It's ludicrous.
  8. I would not consider those people/group as being hostile to you either. They disagreed with some of your beliefs and they didn't accept you in full fellowship within that group, but that alone isn't "hostile" or adversarial from my perspective. I think this exchange helps me to understand your views on the church better, as you seem to see hostility in others much more easily than I do, and you seem to assign hostile motives to others when I would not assign the same, and when hostility might not be a motive at all.
  9. I don't think we can take that one quote from Elder Oaks alone. He has said other things on about the lgtbq community as well, and I think they all need to be taken together. I would not be surprised if his views have changed somewhat. But yes, the other thread goes through it all.
  10. We actually had a really good discussion about that decades old quote a few weeks ago. All of my thoughts on it can be found in that thread.
  11. I have a handful of friends who completely disagreement with me on religious beliefs, and a couple that aren't exactly sure i'm not going to hell. You would consider them to be hostile to me, I guess. Oh well.
  12. Yes, the church continues to teach that SSM is a sin. It has policies (some still and others that have come and gone) that exist because of that doctrine. No one is arguing against that in any way. What is being questioned is whether or not you could support your statement that the church treats the lgtbq community as villains and bastions of immorality that must be stopped. Clearly you can't. A belief/teaching that SSM is a sin and a policy that mirrored the baptismal policy for children of polygamists does not equal treating the lgtbq community as villains and bastions of immorality.
  13. I view it as friendly. It would be hard to argue that someone who was hostile to a community would also try to legislate protections for that community, in my view. I suppose other people interpret adversarial differently.
  14. I'm not seeing anything in that list that comes close to treating the lgtbq community as "villains and bastions of immorality that must be stopped." But the bolded part of your post does make me think of all the teachings of loving our brothers/loving our enemies/turning the other cheeks/pleas from the pulpit for kindness/the church going out of it's way to support legislation that protects the lgtbq community that have happened in the last decade. And it makes me wonder why is it that you always ignore those examples in these discussions. If your examples are evidence of how church members view the lgtbq community, why aren't the more loving examples evidence as well? Why are you never asking anyone to think of those?
  15. HJW seemed to imply that this leader (and others) is behaving like he is because the church is "holding up the lgtbq community as villains and bastions of immorality that must be stopped". That's a serious accusation and asking for examples to support it isn't unreasonable. Elder Holland's musket fire comment doesn't fit the accusation.
  16. Can you provide some examples of the church holding up the lgtbq community as "villains and bastions of immorality that must be stopped"?
  17. It's so hard to find shows that don't swear, I celebrate when I do!
  18. I think in a model that eschews the need for personal revelation, that the bold would be true.
  19. I totally agree about the Bible. I've loved studying the OT this year. It's amazing.
  20. You know that we believe that JS received knowledge of the three kingdoms of glory via revelation Tacenda. You might disagree now that you don't believe anymore, but you should still be aware of our beliefs about how JS restored this church (and it wasn't a reliance on the bible).
  21. This is not exactly what we believe though. We certainly don't believe that everyone that dies without having become "mormon" will end up in spirit prison.
  22. It's not a movie but the Amazon limited series "The English" is excellent. I highly recommend it, especially for anyone who enjoys the western genre of shows or films. It has excellent actors in it and a really good storyline. The story is told in an interesting way--almost like a mystery--so it can be confusing a little at the beginning but the pieces will soon all fall into place and then everything makes so much sense (and most of it will not be what you thought at the beginning). The ending is both happy and incredibly poignant. It's rated TV-16 because the themes are very adult and there's blood and violence. A couple of episodes list nudity or sexual themes as the reason for the rating but the nudity is not sexual in nature (a dead man's butt) and the sexual themes are alluded too or spoken about, never shown. And if I remember right there was only one or two F words in the entire series.
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