How to answer/address a comment made by my Daughter-in-law

[Canadiandude]

31 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

Where I sit, you either don't value your virtue enough to fight for it, or you don't believe women should value their virtue enough to fight for it.  You do realize this issue is all about how much people should value their virtue, don't you?

I believe some things are worth fighting for, even if the fighting results in someone's death.  Virtue for example is something I believe is worth fighting for.  This current generation of wimps who would not fight to maintain their virtue is deplorable. 

My generation finds other things deplorable, like poverty, racism, gender inequality & violence, homophobia, transphobia, environmental degradation and religious privilege.

Unfortunately there have been far too many wimps among prior generations so as to better mitigate and correct these longstanding issues.

 

 

[Olmec Donald]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Sure! To me it just means that the Atonement is the only way we can again become ONE with Christ and his Father.

It is the way to sit together with them in their thrones and all humanity has a shot at exaltation, by becoming one with our Father and the savior.

No big doctrine deal, just a spelling coincidence that kind of reminds us that the overall goal is to become ONE with the Godhead which is only possible through the atonement.

Thank you, that makes sense, and is simple enough for me. 

[bOObOO]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

Virtue and chastity are not things that someone can take from you.  They are not something you can give.  They are like a stick of gum.  They are not things that once lost can never to return.  They are not things. Neither are they equivalent to virginity.    You haven't lost either of these virtues if you freeze in fear and are a victim of a heinous act. 

What is an example of virtue?
Honesty, courage, compassion, generosity, fidelity, integrity, fairness, self-control, and prudence are all examples of virtues. ... For example, a person who has developed the virtue of generosity is often referred to as a generous person because he or she tends to be generous in all circumstances.  https://www.google.com/search?q=virtue&rlz=1C1JZAP_enUS903US904&oq=virtue&aqs=chrome.0.69i59.2034j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

In this context, when someone tries to rape someone else, what they are trying to take away from the would-be victim is his or her dignity, propriety, fidelity, integrity, honor, courage, and control over his or her own body. You would either fight or give in.

[Raingirl]

7 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

I have one daughter, a DIL, and if some fool ever determined to try to rape her I like to think she would resist even if resisting and fighting off her attacker led to her death, than to think she just laid down and took it without any resistance whatsoever.

Fighting to preserve our virtue, or someone else's virtue, is probably the best way I can think of to die.  Better than just rotting away with old age at least.

You would rather your daughter or daughter-in-law be murdered rather than raped?

That is a very sick point of view, valuing a mind-set over someone’s life. 
 

You are saying an idea - that of having “virtue” - is more important than the actual life of a loved one. 
 

Despicable. 

[ksfisher]

8 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

I have one daughter, a DIL, and if some fool ever determined to try to rape her I like to think she would resist even if resisting and fighting off her attacker led to her death, than to think she just laid down and took it without any resistance whatsoever.

Fighting to preserve our virtue, or someone else's virtue, is probably the best way I can think of to die.  Better than just rotting away with old age at least.

So the options are to fight to preserve your virtue or rot away with old age?  What about living to raise children of your own and then seeing their children.  How about have a full and complete life surrounded by people you love and who love you.  How about realizing that a crime committed against you in no way reflects who you are to yourself and your loved ones.

Your ideas here are callous. 

[california boy]

3 hours ago, Fether said:

Thank you for providing these (I would also like a link, but we can’t always get what we want).

You speak as if this issue permeates through the church today. The most recent reference you have is from a man who died 36 years ago. And, correct me if I’m wrong, each of those statements mentioned were made in a non-church setting. 
 

I will happily accept that there is a shame culture in the church. I will happily accept that these statements, made by these long dead apostles/prophets who were forged by their time, are extremely harmful and the affects of them can still be felt today. 

Interesting that modern apostles and prophets have a 36 year expiration and their beliefs were a reflection of the times they lived in..  Do you feel the same about apostles who wrote 2000 years ago?  If not, why not.

[bOObOO]

4 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

You would rather your daughter or daughter-in-law be murdered rather than raped?

That is a very sick point of view, valuing a mind-set over someone’s life. 
 

You are saying an idea - that of having “virtue” - is more important than the actual life of a loved one. 
 

Despicable. 

I do not expect someone like you to understand, but trying to fight off a would-be attacker is better than just allowing that attacker to do whatever he or she wants to do to you.  The attacker could kill you even if you let the attacker rape you.

But you go ahead and do whatever you think is best. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by bOObOO

[pogi]

20 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

is probably the best way I can think of to die.  

Ok Klingon dude. 

 

[Raingirl]

58 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

Where I sit, you either don't value your virtue enough to fight for it, or you don't believe women should value their virtue enough to fight for it.  You do realize this issue is all about how much people should value their virtue, don't you?

I believe some things are worth fighting for, even if the fighting results in someone's death.  Virtue for example is something I believe is worth fighting for.  This current generation of wimps who would not fight to maintain their virtue is deplorable. 

There is no “virtue” if someone is dead. 
 

It’s men like you who make this world dangerous for women. 

[webbles]

2 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’m pretty sure the second sentence sets the terms whereby we can interpret “voluntary”. If we don’t “struggle” then it would have been better to die. I have no idea why you are even trying to defend this horrendous statement. Since we are providing context don’t forget this sentence just above: “Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained.”

That anyone can still try and defend this trash makes me want to throw up. 

But the definition of "struggle" doesn't always mean fighting back.  A woman who freezes during a rape and doesn't fight back "struggles" just as much as a woman who fights back.  Neither are "helping" the abuser.  Neither are voluntary.  Both struggled in their own way.  And both are under no condemnation.

Edited October 20, 2021 by webbles

[webbles]

Double post

Edited October 20, 2021 by webbles

[Raingirl]

3 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

I do not expect someone like you to understand, but trying to fight off a would-be attacker is better than just allowing that attacker to do whatever he or she wants to do to you.  The attacker could kill you even if you let the attacker rape you.

But you go ahead and do whatever you think is best. 

“Someone like you”? Is that your misogynistic way of saying a woman wouldn’t understand this?

A real man, a virtuous man, would never say the degrading, dehumanizing, sick, misogynistic things you say. 
 

Being raped is a horrible, traumatic event. But it’s not the worst thing that can happen to a person (men are raped, too).  
 

You apparently think being raped makes a woman”bad” and worthless. Disgusting. 

[Canadiandude]

6 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

I do not expect someone like you to understand

Someone like say, a woman? Raingirl & I don’t agree on much but I don’t think anyone’s convinced of your argument’s lack of harm.

 

[pogi]

23 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

 

In this context, when someone tries to rape someone else, what they are trying to take away from the would-be victim is his or her dignity, propriety, fidelity, integrity, honor, courage, and control over his or her own body. You would either fight or give in.

 

Again, it is not a thing that anyone can take.  Do you really think that a perpetrator could  be in possession of "dignity, propriety, fidelity, integrity, honor, courage"  by stealing them from another person?  You do understand that rape can only happen without consent, right?  No victim is "giving in" to anything.  Not fighting is not the same as being willing and giving in.   They are not giving away anything.  Their virtue is not tarnished or diminished or stolen. 

[Raingirl]

18 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

What is an example of virtue?
Honesty, courage, compassion, generosity, fidelity, integrity, fairness, self-control, and prudence are all examples of virtues. ... For example, a person who has developed the virtue of generosity is often referred to as a generous person because he or she tends to be generous in all circumstances.  https://www.google.com/search?q=virtue&rlz=1C1JZAP_enUS903US904&oq=virtue&aqs=chrome.0.69i59.2034j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

In this context, when someone tries to rape someone else, what they are trying to take away from the would-be victim is his or her dignity, propriety, fidelity, integrity, honor, courage, and control over his or her own body. You would either fight or give in.

Bull crap. 

[bOObOO]

9 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

So the options are to fight to preserve your virtue or rot away with old age?  What about living to raise children of your own and then seeing their children.  How about have a full and complete life surrounded by people you love and who love you.  How about realizing that a crime committed against you in no way reflects who you are to yourself and your loved ones.

Your ideas here are callous. 

Preserving your virtue is about preserving your right to determine your actions regarding your morals. Suppose the rapist doesn't have a weapon other than his own body.  Suppose you are physically fit and think there is a good chance you could win a fight.

At what point do you choose to just lay down and have some would-be rapist have his or her way with you?  Would you chance it if you thought you would only get a few bruises and some chaffed skin on your knuckles? How much of a wimp would you be?

[Raingirl]

1 minute ago, bOObOO said:

Preserving your virtue is about preserving your right to determine your actions regarding your morals. Suppose the rapist doesn't have a weapon other than his own body.  Suppose you are physically fit and think there is a good chance you could win a fight.

At what point do you choose to just lay down and have some would-be rapist have his or her way with you?  Would you chance it if you thought you would only get a few bruises and some chaffed skin on your knuckles? How much of a wimp would you be?

Being raped has NOTHING to do with morality.  It is a violent act.

A woman who has been raped has not done  anything “ immoral”.  
 

What is immoral is your sick mindset. 

[pogi]

36 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

I do not expect someone like you to understand, but trying to fight off a would-be attacker is better than just allowing that attacker to do whatever he or she wants to do to you.  The attacker could kill you even if you let the attacker rape you.

But you go ahead and do whatever you think is best. 

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that it is wrong to defend yourself.  I applaud people that fight, carry pepper spray, and even take defense classes if they so chose.   What we are saying is that no one really knows how they are going to react in a situation like that.  Without training, adrenaline and trauma can lead to freezing.  It is a natural and normal human reaction.  Nothing to be ashamed of.  What we are saying is that death is not better than the alternative.  No virtue has been lost. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by pogi

[Canadiandude]

1 minute ago, bOObOO said:

Preserving your virtue is about preserving your right to determine your actions regarding your morals. Suppose the rapist doesn't have a weapon other than his own body.  Suppose you are physically fit and think there is a good chance you could win a fight.

At what point do you choose to just lay down and have some would-be rapist have his or her way with you?  Would you chance it if you thought you would only get a few bruises and some chaffed skin on your knuckles? How much of a wimp would you be?

I don’t think you understand the fear, trauma, body-shaking *horror* going through a person’s mind in such an event, 

That they could be potentially hurt or even killed if they gave the kind of fight you are suggesting.

No one can really say if someone ’resisted enough’ so as to deter the aggressor, if the aggressor can be deterred at all.

The best way to overcome rape culture is to place responsibility where it ought to be: on the hands of the abuser.

 

 

 

[ksfisher]

8 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

How much of a wimp would you be?

You're getting insulting.

[pogi]

19 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

Preserving your virtue is about preserving your right to determine your actions regarding your morals. Suppose the rapist doesn't have a weapon other than his own body.  Suppose you are physically fit and think there is a good chance you could win a fight.

At what point do you choose to just lay down and have some would-be rapist have his or her way with you?  Would you chance it if you thought you would only get a few bruises and some chaffed skin on your knuckles? How much of a wimp would you be?

A lot of times it is not a choice.  People can literally be paralyzed with fear. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201405/neuroscientists-discover-the-roots-fear-evoked-freezing

[Raingirl]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that it is wrong to defend yourself.  I advocate that people fight, carry pepper spray, and even take defense classes.   What we are saying is that no one really knows how they are going to react in a situation like that.  Without training, adrenaline and trauma can lead to freezing.  It is a natural and normal human reaction.  Nothing to be ashamed of.  What we are saying is that death is not better than the alternative.  No virtue has been lost. 

It is also not wrong to choose not to fight back when you feel that doing so would result in death. It can be a better choice to not resist if a weapon is being held on you. Choosing life can be the right choice. 

I’m glad to see that Ahab is very much in the minority among the men here 
 

 

 

[bOObOO]

15 minutes ago, pogi said:

Again, it is not a thing that anyone can take.  Do you really think that a perpetrator could  be in possession of "dignity, propriety, fidelity, integrity, honor, courage"  by stealing them from another person?  You do understand that rape can only happen without consent, right?  No victim is "giving in" to anything.  Not fighting is not the same as being willing and giving in.   They are not giving away anything.  Their virtue is not tarnished or diminished or stolen. 

This is not that complicated.  Who do you want to be in control of your own body? What would you do if someone tried to take control of your body and you did not want them to have that control? Would you resist or give in?

I'm sure you could think of an example of how you could lose your virtue involving you allowing someone else to take it, in which case both of you would be responsible for your loss of it.  I agree that you could get it back.  Repentance is wonderful. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by bOObOO

[pogi]

14 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

It is also not wrong to choose not to fight back when you feel that doing so would result in death. It can be a better choice to not resist if a weapon is being held on you. Choosing life can be the right choice. 

I’m glad to see that Ahab is very much in the minority among the men here 

Agreed. 

[Canadiandude]

1 minute ago, bOObOO said:

This is not that complicated.  Who do you want to be in control of your own body? What would you do if someone tried to take control of your body and you did not want them to have that control? Would you resist or give in?

I'm sure you could think of an example of how you could lose your virtue involving you allowing someone else to taker it, in which case both of you would be responsible for your lose of it.  I agree that you could get it back.  Repentance is wonderful. 

Again. Your argument is monstrous. A rape victim has absolutely nothing to repent of.