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BlueDreams

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About BlueDreams

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    If only there was blue cocoa too
  • Birthday 05/17/1988

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  1. I can only speak from my perspective on this. My current stance is that the start of the ban was from fallible leaders and inherently racist in both its justifications and implications. I do believe that McKay likely did get a no from God. I personally believe it had more to do with the readiness of the people and I do not see that as God necessarily promoting racism or being racist himself. Let me give a non-race related example from my life that could apply. I believe that God wants families that are seal together and with a mother and father to bring up children in love and patiencemore. But I was born out of wedlock. When I was younger and struggling with some of the issues in my family as well as maybe feeling a little like I was missing out of things others took for granted, I received a series of revelations that helped me realize that I was meant to come to my more complicated family. I do not see that meaning that my family is the divine structure that God would want for his children, just that I was supposed to be here in this family and at this time and that it was okay that I didn't have a sealed family governed by gospel principles just yet. I developed as needed and know that I've been blessed by the journey I've been on. God's made up the difference in my family experience I believe in a God that allows His people to slowly become and personally choose a more zion state. If Pres. McKay was the church at the time, I have no doubt that there would have been a correction and change in racist policy then. But he wasn't, nor is any one member the church. The church to me is the experience or "family" we're given to help us all become the order and family of God. It's by no means perfect or the ideal that God envisions for his children. That is a body of believers who are of "one heart and one mind" and where there "are no poor among them." It's a people where all truly have access to God and his covenants. It's a It's a people that are willing to obey the Lord and in doing so, reflect the Light of Christ in their actions and behaviors to their fellow man. When the body of current believers were more willing and ready to accept black members as equals in the gospel and start shedding their prejudices and false beliefs, was when they could move forwards. We are still not fully the divine structure, but God makes up the difference and accepts our meager efforts nonetheless. So the no to me wasn't about the divinity of the practice at the time, but an indication of where the people were at in their process of becoming. Several members, including apostles, were clinging to false beliefs and couldn't shake themselves from them like McKay had. And that's okay. Thank God that getting it all right in this life is not the litmus test for how we'll stand before God in the next. I don't know if that helps, but that's how I see it from my perspective and how I can hold 2 seemingly contradictory beliefs at the same time (ie. the policy was racist and wrong but the timing for its removal was divinely revealed/inspired) On your aside, yes they were able to to baptisms for the dead for blacks....though if I remember correctly not at first and after some petitioning from black members at the time to church leaders. It's been a minute though since I've read about that, so I may have that a little wrong With luv, BD
  2. Utah county. no current protest for BLM for about 2 weeks i want to say. Most protests period are in salt lake area so that’s not very surprising. In my specific town there were non period....just a few messages on the side walk or on homes in support. I think there’s been a couple tiny protests surrounding mask wearing. covid numbers here started to spike like much of the state. It’s early but they seem to be plateauing recently. Each week that i’ve gone grocery shopping mask wearing has gone up as have mask mandates in individual stores. The last major store that sinply requested masks made it reuired and had two workers passing out masks to those entering. Which i was extemely pleased with. 2weeks prior i could see a few people gripe about it to the people handing masks and a couple people pssive aggressively wore it as a chin strap or below their nose. But at this point i think most people have come to accept it To some degree. i’m more worried for my family down in Texas where people are still taking it lightly inspite of the surge. I think from some of my brother’s reports they think it’s basically hopeless based on how many won’t wear a mask and aren’t following social distancing guidelines. They struggle to really do so themselves at times. Which worries me since they fit the demographics you don’t want to see together: younger college aged with older not super healthy parents With luv, BD
  3. Yup. Last year i assumed i’d try getting pregnant this year again. With covid and our daughter’s concerns and other personal factors of not feeling fully ready for number 2 anyways, we decided to postpone till next year to try with luv, BD
  4. about the trib article on the BSU letter: I decided to take a day or two before responding to this because i found several of the responses frustrating. For one several posts looked like they were jumping to conclusions or creating strawman arguments based on the first few (slightly sensationalistic) lines. Throughout the article the two stated clearly they didn’t want to condemn former leaders, but simply have a more neutral learning environment. They specifically wanted all names removed so that a single leader wasn’t called out or defamed. I’m summarizing directly from the letter itself. Instead their moral standing was questioned and they were labeled as hyperjudgmental and accused (or at least strongly insenuated) of defaming the lord’s annointed. Which is ironic because there’s a good chance they are among the Lord’s annointed if they’ve gone through the temple. What’s especially frustrating is that these are members of the BSU on campus, they came together and decided this is something that may help the black community on campus just a little more. This letter then is representative of a good amount of the black voices on campus. Voices and experiences that people state they are wanting to hear from and need to be heard in discussions of race in the church. They were likely looking for something simple, obtainable as a goal, and with current presedence (they’re effectively asking for current policy in naming buildings apply retroactively). I didn’t find it unreasonable and potentially positive, though i’m not the biggest proponent of renaming everything. Still many of the comments here to it came off as reactive, judgmental of these people’s moral standing, and defensive. Along with that, it is frustrating to see people who have at best limited access to black members lives and experience sit as judges as to what qualifies as acceptable change. It reminded me of when i’d have white friends on social media talk about how protesters SHOULDNT act while paying, at best, lip service, to speaking against the killing of George Floyd and never really interacting with the black community and BIPOC experiences or issues. There is something absolutely irritating to have reactions and experiences monitored and critiqued without really engaging and seeking understanding about the points and perspectives of those most effected. I don’t say this to shame or point at any one person specifically. I get that this thread was started to discuss race, racism, and particularly black experiences of such. But in this thread i am the only person who is even part black. As such, each time I post i have to decide if it’s worth it and i weigh my words carefully, because i know that i will be the only minority voice actively participating in this conversation. Which is why i’m speaking up for these students who aren’t here for this. I thought of not because I’m assuming this will not go over well and it takes a lot of time and energy to monitor what i say to be as judicial as possible. Personally as a BYU alumni twice over, there are things I didn’t experience that they did. But I can empathize with their experiences that are part of the reasons for suggesting this change. When i think back to my BYU experiences, there were definitely uncomfortable moments littered throughout it. For example I remember having a full-time non-student employee at the bookstore dress in black face for Halloween, he laughed and made some soft ball comments on his choice that let me knew he knew this was controversial but not WHY it was. I was caught flat footed and found myself frozen, smiling and laughing uncomfortably. I liked this man, but didn’t know how to address what he was doing. These weren’t conversations that were had in a lot of Y settings so it often fell on the minority person to decide when it was worth speaking up about problems...and it was often uncertain whether it would be taken humbly or defensively...and if defensively and if they were in a position of power, if this would blow back on us in one way or another. More specifically, I do remember a moment of being uncomfortable with one of the buildings’ names, though I don’t think i could have verbalized as well as these two did as to why at the time. At around the same time of my sense of discomfort, i was arguing with people on this very board about several of these leaders problematic statements and why they’re wrong. I remember numbly watching a number of people defend certain comments and teachings and it took me back to my own mother parroting antiquated racialized beliefs as simple gospel truth. We as a church tend to not just honor past leaders, but ignore or worse justify past leaders errors and untruths. It means we spend year after year talking about their great programs, decisions, contributions, spiritual leadership, etc...and whisper at best, that they were human. We’re doing better at this, but up until a few years ago did i feel comfortable saying what i always knew somewhere in my heart: several of our leaders were racist and/or believed and perpetuated racist ideology. Because any ounce of negative attributions to them is often led with pushback and defensiveness and justifications/minimizing said racism. Often it’s done with the best of intentions and to try to help the person who’s stumbled on these problems. It doesn’t actually help, it can shut down communication, and can leave POC feeling isolated in our church. If we lived in a church culture (note that i said culture...i think structurally there are definite moves towards that) that had a more salient and nuanced approach to our history that openly acknowledged wrong-doing by previous leaders along with their good attributes, I don’t think I’d see importance in their push for neutral naming. But we don’t. And that culture often leads to problems and stress for minority members. And again i am not saying this to shame or assume anything about anyone. I’m only saying this to note that such comments often shutdown real communications. And if one really wants to understand black/brown perspectives, that is going to be a problem. With luv, BD
  5. Yeah, somehow we’re still disconnecting. When i say “white privilege” i am talking in large part about what had deceloped culturally abd institutionally over centuries in favor of those deemed white. I understand what’s being described. I’ve read Macintosh’s text book and largely agree with it. So something isn’t connecting. Maybe it’s the focus on solely white privilege. When talking about privilege that’s not the only form talked about. Class is talked about as well. I think the reason that white privilege is given such focus is that it’s one that often has to be proven as existing. And then after existing, that it does have a significant effect. But i could be wrong and i am sure there are people who ignore other forms of privilege and social disparities and focus solely on the one. That’s just not my experience when talking about privilege. I can agree in wanting programs that help people succeed. I’m still highly skeptical of “poverty culture” and how it differs from simply experiences of poverty and resource scarcity. I had an experience of that once in my life for less than a year and it Dropped my grades and left me rageful for far longer as a young teen. But kI read the article and listened to the broadcast and found the original research article it was based on to read some of that. I won’t say it has absolutely no merit. But it’s still hard for me to separate that from systems and structural problems that led to whole communities effectively cut off from better resources. At one point they talked about an experiment of flooding an area with resources you’d expect in a middle class school and the passing grades shot up to 87%. To me that screams resource deprivation not cultural apathy towards education. Another article i ended up reading also noted that several of the attitudes that are assumed to differ are actually fairly similar from the rest of the public. Still, I do not have living memories of poverty, though my family was pretty poor until my mom married. Her family was small town and relatively poor as well. If anything they’ve bred generations of hyper focus on independence and building yourself up in their children. Ironically those that believe it the most are the onesbwho were financially strapped the longest. I’m also thinking that I don’t have access to anyone who fits this category of generational poverty, so i feel extremely hesitant to describe an experience I’ve never had and never will have. with luv, BD
  6. @pogi Sorry if this is out of order. I wrote it on my phone in pieces whenever I had a minute or two. Minus that she will likely never have thanksgiving with the peruvian side (they live in peru...and it’s not a holiday there obviously 😋), yes she’ll have direct access to a lot of different families and family cultures. But that was never my main concern. It’s more to do with the extended social and cultural experiences that she will have that i’m concerned about. That i have to work to help her have growing up. it’s quite a group i have. In my master’s we needed to draw out a cultural genogram. Where most people had 1-3 ethnic backgrounds (danish, german, english, etc)...i had about 9 or 10 in my immediate relatives and that was before i was married or had a SIL from Madagascar. It’s definitely effected how i view and experience the world and for the better, IMO. I’ve noticed that you use race and “skin color” interchangeably in several of your posts. It took me a minute to figure out why this was bothering me a little. For me those are not interchangeable. Skin color is a simple gene expression mixed with physiological responses to the environment. In no way do i think it alone has any effect on generational poverty. But skin color is not race. Race is by definition a social identifier and construction. It is how we interpret and place meaning on phisiological features. And it’s that meaning that can be detrimental and enforce historical inequalities. As noted from the research I pointed to, I don’t think racism is currently the primary driver of poverty today. Rather that historical racism helped to create pockets of disenfranchised communities and current cultural racism and classism makes it difficult for certain groups to have equal access to services that are economically enabling. Often these policies alsi effected poor whites too. The research also noted that these factors yave effect outside of poverty...leading to greater disparities outside poverty lines. Addressing racism along with other structural factors will inevitably lead to cultural shifts within our society that also will likely lead to reduction of poverty and a focus on factors that are maintaining generational poverty and disparities in our country. Note that many movements concerned about racism aren’t solely concerned about racism as in the sense of cultural biases...but racism in the sense of increasing marginalized people’s power in society to bring greter equality in all aspects. They’re often deeply concerned on dismantling poverty. Which is why a lot of the policies and push in these orgs incorporate concerns around poverty as well. metho What methods do you see as most effective from your POV? From my end, I don’t have a singular approach because I don’t think there’s a magic bullet that will solve all of these concerns. It will likely take both macro and micro focused efforts to change this. It will take focus on families and individuals in households as well as community and systematic shifts in how we run our government. It will take understanding the pressures that poverty places on people as well as the racial biases and systems that have disenfranchised some of these communities. One country that i was impressed with when i visited was Taiwan, when it comes to poverty. When i was there i never saw a single homeless person. Not once. Their poverty rate is miniscule...one of the smallest in the world. And that’s reflected in many of their policies and national attitude that effectively puts a high priority on caring for the whole of society. Spiritually i’ve been finding a lot of inspiration from the book of mormon. I’ve always been interested in what makes Zion communities and to me the BoM reads as the long process that it takes to get to a zion society. As well as what can lead to its dismantling. Tribalism and classist pride and seeking monetary gain were often major contributions to community disruption. Lastly on the construct of privilege in general. I don’t think it creates resentment rather it names names a problem and experience often already felt. That experience can lead to resentment, yes. But it wasn’t caused simply by naming it. Any more than naming pointing out other social ills does. I don’t resent my siblings for having different experiences from me. And I don’t resent them for having certain privileges in this country. What i hope to see instead is recognition of that experience and greater awareness and work to reduce its effect. With luv, BD
  7. First, i would state that being mixed is not the same as being black. I look significantly different than my full black siblings. I’m significantly lighter, my hair’s different, my racial identifiers can be a little bit chameleon, based on where you see me and when. Growing up in a white/mexican american family i still stood out. From time to time i’d experience the hard stare in the south. But i’ll never forget the difference of walking and interacting with one side in UT compared to with my black side. The attention and interactions were often notably different. Not all the time. But consistently none the less. My bio-dad had found ways to diffuse the awkwardness with people he interacted with. He’d tease them and warm them up and make it less awkward. But i never experienced that walking with my white mother or lighter siblings. He, my nigerian born step-mom, and my peruvian husband all share a lot in common as immigrants. But being an immigrant doesn’t fully account for some of the other treatments and experiences my bio dad in a place and time that was really REALLY white. My husband also sees the racism that exists in the US. My experience of being mixed in the US also differs. In the sense of upward mobility that’s honestly too hard to say. My circumstances were easier in a lot of regards growing up than my next brother in line who ID’s white (he’s half moroccan but with no connections to said side). His start was ROCKY. Mine was mitigated by a lot of factors and I recognize that at key moments i was extremely lucky/blessed with people who helped open opportunities for me to walk through. If we hadn’t moved from a neighborhood going down hill to a more upper middle class texan town I would have never had my young women’s group that gave me better models for happiness and more stabe friendships. If i hadn’t had my “college coach” (a member of our ward) to help me navigate getting into school, i may have never made it to BYU. If I hadn’t connected with the dean and my future chair while in my undergrads - both interested in helping minorities succeed and develop - i may have not made it into my master’s program. I didn’t have nearly the amount of experiences other candidates had because I couldn’t afford to. I needed to work to barely make ends meet with limited help from family. At each transition in my life i had supportive usually white figures who knew there were likely racial and familial disparities that could act as barriers for me to move forward. I doubt any of them would assume they did much, but what they did do in essence was use their privilege and opportunities to help me out at very crucial periods in my life. Being mixed both afforded me some white privilege while also experiencing racial biases/prejudice. One of my big concerns raising my daughter is raising her in UT. My black siblings are all generally good and relatively well adjusted though my teen black brother has already experienced police issues. They all had more opportunities than some of their peers. My half navajo brother’s mom knew this and had him sent up off the reservation to my dad’s better school system to help assure a better future for him. But my half-sister who i havehad limited contact to and she in turn has limited black contact growing up in UT county...well her journey was rough. And some of that’s familial with her immediate family. Some of that is race based. She seemed to accept blatant racist bullying with a shrug and sense of normalcy that horrified me. She had an eating disorder in high school. She had a very poor sense of who she was as a person. She’s also the sibling that looks the most like me. She’s not the only story i’ve heard of rough development as a racial minority in UT. I didn’t have that. Most of my childhood I didn’t stand out. My friends were always diverse. And so i’ve been looking for ways to mitigate the problems i’ve seen happen from raising a child in a very white state. And i’ve seriously contemplated moving out of the country for a time while they’re young to broaden their view. I guess that’s a long way of saying it’s complicated. But I wouldn’t say I’m handicapping my child by teaching them about potential racia issues may come up. My daughter also has a genetic (non-visible) disorder. Due to her needs, i’ll teach her what she needs to be aware of and the best ways to care for her health and manage the disorder. The US has problems that are based on historical and current racism. In order for her to grow healthier i want her to be aware of these and understand the best ways to manage it. With luv, BD
  8. I responded to another post of yours and somehow missed this one when doing so. I still stand with my assertions that racial privilege and economic privilege overlap, but I would have probably changed a few things based on this context. I just want to point out a few things. There are definitely groups of people that are generally considered outside the anglo-saxon and/or white categories that tend do better in a US economy than others. That's never been in question for people who've studied these trends and patterns. What is in question is exactly WHY. And that's where it gets complicated. Part of this is cultural value and focus. There can be a strong focus on having successful children in certain communities, but these also became baked into american stereotypes of said communities which though there are problems as well with these stereotypes and can close certain doors, it can leave certain economic doors fairly open. For example, Asians being smart as a common stereotype won't bias a boss to hiring them in well paying careers in the medical field. BUT other stereotypes can also hurt them (asian men are less attractive, for example, leading to difficulty with dating sites or in the acting world in the US, etc). Cultural push to seeking out white collar jobs and having a model minority stereotype will open SOME doors, while leaving others still difficult to walk through. Another problem with lumping this all as culture is that the evidence doesn't fully support it. A couple years ago, there were a couple major studies on race and economic mobility over generations. Among the results that black children were less likely to maintain the level of socioeconomic status that they grew up in and more likely to fall into poverty, there also appeared to be a stark difference based on gender (ie black men had the larger effect, black women did not). In upper income levels, the gap actually increases though both white and black boys fair better than their poorer counterparts. They noted that there are circumstances where this gap is reduced or mitigated. It entails lower poverty communities, with higher percentage of present fathers, and lower racial bias/stigma in the area. These communities though are few and far between, according to the study. Two important quotes: Too lazy to fix the quoting structure. The full report is 100+ pgs, but it can be found at the beginning of this link if you're interested https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/21/17139300/economic-mobility-study-race-black-white-women-men-incarceration-income-chetty-hendren-jones-porter Lastly, this focus on culture as the problem ignores one's own cultural biases in scoping out a problem. The white american ethos believes strongly in individualism, working hard to get ahead, and that anyone who puts in the effort can make it. These aren't necessarily bad, but they hold a blind spot to systemic problems and difficulties and just how important they are in effecting people's outcomes in society. It also pushes out societal introspection and keeps this problem marginalized as simply a black american issue. The rest of society can be expunged from any form of responsibility to this. And it can equally lead to an unintentional jugdment on black american culture and subesquently people. The underlying message is unintentionally that something about black culture is antithetical to success and they should fix it if they want to get ahead. And even on the parts that may have more black american community issues do not note that at times the larger society and culture is putting exaggerated stress on said community. So some may be drawn to the part about absentee fathers....but that ignores that part of the reason there’s higher numbers is disproportionate incarceration rates. Said rates are based on long standing national and state policies that dramatically increased our prison population and out culture that’s built around punishment moreso than reform and reintegration into society. I will not say that cultural/economic factors do not have a place in these issues. They do. But sussing them out from all the other larger societal/historical/dominate cultural factors isn't really possible. And in doing so or deemphasizing their influence can be just as diempowering/demoralizing. Edit: I just noticed your most recent post. I don't know how much these overlap, but I'll be sure to respond more if needed when I have the chance. With luv, BD
  9. I’ve seen a few families with these. Seems especially smart for younger kids! One of my friends is a highschool teacher and among worrying about illness, there’s just so much up in the air. Most of my friends assume at some point they’ll likely be doing online school again
  10. For the people i know who’ve Lost their faith, it usually is a culmination of experiences, thought patterns, etc that lead to the dissolution. So mask wearing by itself in either direction isn’t likely to do it. But if they’re at the end of their rope, i could see people’s attitudes toward it being a bigger trial for them than others. personally it’s a non-issue for me. When we received the news that our ward would start meeting monthly again, I had a simple spiritual experience that confirmed that it was best we stay home for a long while to come. It was both the logical and confirmed answer for us to do. And that was that for me. I’ve trusted that answer and there’s no need for me to sweat what others are Doing at church, though i hope they’re following the guidance set out. That said it’s been interesting to watch as we venture out and see masks become more and more important in the last few weeks and to see the last section of society in my area push against masks. I know they see it as a virtue and fight for freedom of choice. I’ve listened to the arguments more than once. Particularly since several (at least as of a couple weeks ago before i went on hiatus from FB) are my relatives. I was in the grocery store watching a couple passive aggressive stances towards masks and some blatant arguments over them as a lady insisted on speaking to the manager about mask wearing and her right not to wear one. And honestly it looks less like a virtue and more of a stance built on pride and selfishness fronting as a virtue. I’ve seen the behavior they exhibit from time to time in myself particularly when i was younger and didn’t want to do something and justified basically not doing it till i was pushed into it. Pride to me is insidious because we usually feel fairly justified in holding it...we don’t usually see the cost of it right away. I have been intrigued by this real-time experiment in our moral values and limits. with luv, BD
  11. Race and culture definitely overlap....and having cultural experiences that work in the US where specific european cultures dominated standard practices would definitely lead to an advantage. BUT there is a limit to this and economic success is only one measure of privilege in the US. For example my bio-dad is nigerian by birth. So he didn't have the same cultural baggage and disadvantage that black americans faced. His american journey started in his 20's and to get here, he also had to be extremely resilient and scrappy in the first place. Most of his siblings still live in Nigeria and several simply didn't have the potential opportunity to move here. That in and of itself is a sifting process that makes the comparisons a little uneven. Fast forward a bit and my father lives a very comfortable life. He lives in a middle-upper middle class home. He's received a college education, and his children received good educations. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have a reduced experience of privilege in his community and a fair share of prejudice. It just means he's financially privileged at this point in his life (not when he was living in a warehouse). There are different forms of privilege and one form of privilege doesn't necessarily cancel out others. With Luv, BD
  12. Okay, I think I follow you one this. Though I do think this is more of a common misunderstanding of what's being said. What's usually meant is that there is a collective culture and systems in place that tend to favor one group over another both historically and currently. The historical context fed current disparities and some of the cultural and systemic practices now maintain it. And it's very likely that individuals benefit and carry things from that said legacy. This doesn't mean that I expect one specific individual to fix racism in all its forms....anymore than I think one person recycling will save all the trees. OK....I still don't know if that's the best approach to take on a topic as this one. It tends to breed and cycle defensiveness and push back and self-justification. And I mean that there are specific terms, conclusions, experiences, etc that you've already at least partially written off as not a means for description but as more politically oriented and therefore circumspect. These are terms that I find very useful to describe the experiences of me and others around me. That frames from the start what can or cannot be discussed without it really turning into a debate and/or me needing to defend my position as valid. Which is something I'm really not willing to do right now. Again, bombarded has a connotation of going to battle almost or attacking. I've definitely talked a ton about race from june to early july, but it wasn't to "bombard" but to educate, discuss, and move a conversation that often gets sidelined for other issues and thus never really gets a resolution. You're right, it wasn't on just the "banal stuff"....Because what illicited the start of these conversations simply wasn't banal. I think it's easier to start with when it is good. The initial intent is usually good. They're trying to usually say something along the lines that they're not racist and that color doesn't inform or dictate how they interact with the individiual. Treating people respectfully is generally a good thing. The problem is the context in which it comes up, the misunderstanding of focus in said context, and the inability to confront beliefs or behaviors that do not fit said philosophy of colorblindness. On context, these pronouncements are usually happening when trying to open a general dialogue about racism and societal problems. This is in part to assuage that they, the individual, aren't the problem. But it ignores that the problem isn't a specific individual most the time, but the culture, social heritage, and institutions that were built on racist policies and practices and still hold a residue of the problem. It may ignore things as simple of low representation of racial and ethnic groups in numbers...that also ends up meaning low representation of views and perspective and experiences that differ from their own. And all of that is not really touched on when being viewed as colorblind or "not racist" is viewed as sufficient. A religious comparison would be assuming that getting baptised into the church is sufficient for one's spiritual journey. It's not....it's a bare minimum. This brings another problem....where colorblind means not-racist as in you don't hate others and believe generally in the principle of we're all brothers and sisters. Most people when we're trying to talk about racism assume that the people we're talking to don't hate brown or black folk. We assume they don't secretly nod at white nationalist talking points. But this is often said defensively in such a way that their own biases and problem spots in race issues continue to go unchecked. So here's an example that was told to me recently with a friend. I'll blur out some details for privacy. Theirs stake had a stake activity where they decided they wanted a representative dance from one of the specialty ward's culture represented. They had a specific picture in their mind as to what that culture looked like and acted like. They asked someone from the ward to do such. They agreed and asked/explained some common dances that they do for such events. The people involved asked if they'd wear something they'd seen before in other dances. He explained that they couldn't because that emblem had special meaning and only certain leaders in their community could wear it and only for special occasions (in which a stake activity definitely didn't count). So they decided to not have him dance and instead had a white guy dress up the way they pictured the culture in question and act out what they assumed was a normal dance for them. The ward members of this ethnic group got to sit and watch this uncomfortably at what the rest of the stake presumed was honoring their culture. This isn't a one off. I've heard stories similar to this more than once. This isn't the form of racism that fits under "hating others..." and it goes unadressed when all one needs is to be colorblind and to assume we're all basically the same and thus a white person can basically play out the role and represent another community. Another example that's more personal is with my mother. I think she would at the very least describe herself as not racist if not colorblind. She texted me after I'd made one or two posts on FB about george floyd and police brutality. After a fairly kind gesture towards me, she a day or two later sent me a video by candace owens and wanted to know what I thought about it, as she found it compelling I guess. I explained my problem with her (she's not representative of the vast majority of the black american communities thoughts was the basic gist), which she never responded to. She also asked me if I'd ever experienced racism, which surprised me. I answered yes, but the conversation I didn't have with her and the reason it took me aback, was that I'd experienced racism from her. Multiple times. Sometimes painfully and extremely personally. In just the last couple of years. She honestly didn't see it or understand it that way. And because her biases couldn't be confronted or recognized (she's shut down conversations about this or gets defensive quick....which is common with a lot of "colorblind" people....but people in general I think) it never could get corrected and she couldn't fully see or understand my experiences in this arena. I love my mother. I love large swaths of my white, conservative, often mountain west family. But it is a simple fact for me that there are parts of my life they do no have access to and do not really see...no matter how long they've known me. I know this doesn't answer all of these questions you had, but I hope it illustrates somewhat the problem. This may not seem directly tied to the more serious versions of racism....but they often tied and reflect cultural devaluations or misrepresentations of people that fuel other problems that are less innocuous. To be honest, it's actually a little harder for me to work in said framework. It's not my natural go-to. I'm an artist and gardner by passion and therapist for work. I don't think I'm necessarily trying to "prove" something to a colorblind friend, per se. I'm more likely trying to assert my experiences and explain why seeing color and cultures can be extremely important. I didn't think you were. I volunteered to answer, knowing it may end up being more time consuming than I prefer. And if he uses terms that you're not comfortable with to help explain his experience, such as white privilege or microagressions? I'm curious how you would see it from there. As someone who's had a few opportunities at this point to talk more than I normally would of my experiences (off-forum), I don't mind responding to people earnestly wanting to know about my experiences or how I view this or that around race and racism. I've been pleased to do so the times people have PM'd me or asked if they could share my experiences/thoughts with others. But my concern is when people move from asking for more details about my experiences, to insisting that what I experienced isn't really what I experienced. Or because they don't see it that way, it must not actually be that way. I'm assuming you mentioned these to connect with my experiences. Which I can understand....it's natural to do. But with all due respect there is a limit to that. You as a utahn who if I remember correctly lives (lived?) in UT county as an active Latter-day saint in a white collar career path and with political views that generally mirror a majority of the county may have moments or conversations that remind you of what I said. But the experiences I've had are more constant and obtrusive in an environment that I simply don't fit into (also UT county) and that I've had to carve out and actively seek space that's more comfortable for me to exist in. I'm hesitant about this one. Not because I don't think white people shouldn't be heard. But moreso because without meaning to or knowing it, what they say and some of the inadvertent power they hold can shut down conversations about this. I've seen it happen. I've done it myself. Most PoC have learned that there are topics best talked about among ourselves. What's currently been happening in our society is an active breach in the usual protocol. People got tired of tip-toeing around the elephant in the room. My other concern is that without knowing it, on race conversations a lot of white people come at a distinct disadvantage. They've largely swum in a thought bubble. Most their friends are white, their lives are white, their experiences are white, and their closest relationships and conversations are with white people. I don't ever fault them for it, but it is what it is (and note, I didn't say all and most also have at least some exposure to different communities of color or at least individuals in said communities). So when they start talking about racial issues they're coming from a distinct disadvantage and limited information. IIN short, this isn't an equal conversation in knowledge base, experience, or lived effect and giving equal air time can actually be its own form of unequal. Ironically I would see this the most at byu in a number of classes I took where I and the 2 other minority students in the classes would often become the unofficial experts on the topics the other white students were working to wrap their minds around. I've probably written enough to indicate why I disagree on this...but I disagree. In religious terms I think of it as similar to the concept of pride. Where it is easiest to note and see issues of pride in others....but it's harder to acknowledge and recognize issues of pride in oneself. With luv, BD
  13. I can get that. My (white) mom is constantly late for everything. When they’re traveling i assume they’ll start 4-6 hours later on their journey than they said. It used to drive me nuts until i just accepted that she may show up between a certain window and never expect her at your place earlier than noon when she’s visiting from out of town. But when talking about this, i think it’s meant more about the cultural value of promptness and timing. My mom’s just mom in this. But the overarching culture that is the dominant feature in american life currently values structure, time, and routines. And several of those values delineate from a northern european/English cultural value which all other communities were often expected to assimilate into or remain separate (and thus less valued). And that has become part of the cultural norms around whiteness...though it’s far more likely to be described as normal. And since their views are historically and currently over represented in institutions, there’s still cultural expectations and values that people are expected to work within. I remember this as especially grating to me in my master’s program. It took me a while to even describe the problem..but my brain and mind and how i framed my world didn’t often jive with western institutional education values or expectations. I often felt stifled and with a low burn irritation and even a little dumb at times. Another small example, culturally dancing and warm greetings and smaller personal bubbles are normal in a lot of latin cultures. But my husband hates close contact. We went dancing for our first date and because he didn’t know me he was so uncomfortable dancing bachata he literally winced. And his sister HATES dancing. These are individual variations but it doesn’t remove that in aggregate there are cultural norms. with luv BD
  14. What do you mean by collective guilt? When i talk about the underlying tone, i mean the preemptive language you’re using that assumes an attack on white people is right around the corner. I don’t know if that’s something you mean to be doing or not, but this reads from my in as at best leery or preemptively defensive. It also kinda read as if we talk about race within the parameters that i find acceptable, then it should be talked about. lastly when i mean race/ethnicity is freely talked about, I don’t mean there’s a deep dive every day or every week (minus maybe this june). I mean that it’s openly discussed in how it influences and colors our lives/experiences. For example my full black siblings teased me for burning on our hike and my husband likes to tease me for my gringa dance when i’m excited or goofing about. I may talk send him something i’m reading about tied to race. Or he may gripe about the US issues around race and race obsession. It just is, like noting an especially hot day or talking about some aspect of the ward dynamics. From time to time that takes a serious note, but it does so fairly easily because the knowledge base for the discussion had already been apart of the collective dialogue. with luv, BD
  15. I'll try to respond to as much of this as I can, but one of the reasons I hesitated in responding was simply time constraints. So it may take me longer to respond to people than I would like. I haven't met anyone who isn't sincere in their beliefs about not seeing color. People are generally sincere on a number of things. But it does make it difficult to converse, because the first thing that has to be deconstructed is that colorblindness isn't necessarily a good thing all the time. And that gets people defensive. It's difficult because I need to disseminate lived experiences succinctly, help them view things outside of their worldview and construct as closely as possible within their context, and do so without turning them off by using words and syntax that fits into their context. I'm being asked, in essence to convince them the value of God when they're atheists and preferably without really talking about the spirit because in his/her context that's just another term for feelings and they've got those. It is sometimes impossible if they themselves aren't really willing to have their perspective and view of the world questioned It often is, BUT the problem is when evidence must match their specific standard of what constitutes evidence or reality. It sets a litmus test for what is legitimate into the hands of those not as invested in the dialogue and likely to chuck out evidence they find unimportant or in some way invalid. But this isn't a separated case for me. This is my life, my family's lives, my friends lives. SO what ends up happening is that by discarding the "evidence" they end up discarding several experiences from my life. Thus they don't really end up seeing me, but the parts of me that are most aligned with their worldview. I'm not getting paid for these heart-to-hearts. And I don't have 3.5 years to make my case. Sometimes I'm given 3-5 minutes to make my case while raising a baby, taking care of my family, managing my job, and trying to reach my personal goals. Sometimes there's not even that and I'm needing to explain why what they just said isn't okay or appropriate without using the R word and turning them off/defensive in 10 seconds flat. The circumstance around it is usually what makes more than one question difficult. Besides that these aren't court cases, again they're parts of my life. It's one thing to pull evidences meant for court that you are likely not directly effected by. It's quite another to pull examples from your life and have those picked apart and judged on. Besides the emotional and vulnerability aspects involved, it's also tangibly hard to "prove" an experience. They are usually not inherently offensive no. Most often it's assumptions about how I identify and my racial background and throw in a few innocuous stereotypes. Which is usually just a little awkward or uncomfortable the first time or 2. The 10th it becomes annoying and frustrating. And I don't lambaste them for getting it wrong. Usually I just correct them if I have the vested desire to do so. But it's not necessarily always mine to fix. As much as I could (and usually do) do a number of those things mentioned, they could also spend some more time in their own life learning more about specific issues and concerns on their own. I have a friend who's done just that. She grew up in a part of idaho with literally no black people and few minorities period. But she's listened to different stories and experiences and grown more aware of other people's concerns outside of her immediate cultural and racial background. She's not perfect, but she's humble enough to know as much and take correction and input when needed. And honestly that's what most people I know expect or want. It becomes apparent in the stories they talk about and share and how they interact with stories and experiences outside their reference point. Skin color is obviously nothing more than a physiological characteristic. what that means and how it shapes experiences in ones community is likely to effect not only your character, but moreso how you view and see things. Being mixed has shaped some of my character because of the society I live in. How do you mean? The same way I'd learn about anything....experience, listening to others experiences, reading, educating myself, etc. Accruing knowledge and experience over the years. In someways it's just logical. If you don't acknowledge and recognize an experience or problem, you're likely not going to fix it. This took a while to respond to. Expect as much with the other responses as my kiddo only allows so much writing in the day. With luv, BD
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