Eat Meat Sparingly

[Mystery Meat]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I don't see the nuance or subjectivity. Not only are we to eat meat sparingly, the next verse states "And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used,  only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine."

If you are confused about the comma followed by "only" here, I refer you to verse 5 where ", only" is used before an exception to the prohibition against wine drinking is given. If you think the comma shouldn't be there at all, I refer you to an excellent article in Interpreter by Jane Birch: http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/questioning-the-comma-in-verse-13-of-the-word-of-wisdom/

Excellent post. Thank you for sharing.

[Kenngo1969]

Meat is OK for breakfast, for lunch, and for dinner, but skip it for dessert.   (Sorry; couldn't resist!)

[VideoGameJunkie]

I've been a vegetarian since I was 6 so I got this.

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, Mystery Meat said:

You sure can.

I am beginning to doubt your hypothesis. Despite the thread rules I laid down at the beginning of my thread I have not yet been thread banned.

[mrmarklin]

18 hours ago, JAHS said:

I don't think about it at all much. I eat some kind of meat every supper time, but usually not  the other meals.
I always thought the eat meat sparingly idea came from 19th century's inability to store meats properly during the hotter months of the year.

Definitely this. One must always interpret scripture in the context of the times in which it was given. 

 

Food technology has improved vastly since the 19th century.

[Kenngo1969]

11 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Meat is OK for breakfast, for lunch, and for dinner, but skip it for dessert.   (Sorry; couldn't resist!)

On the other hand:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/so-good/burger-king-bacon-sundae-review_b_1600304.html

[Maedros]

Some of my family members who stay in the country are excessive meat eaters to the point of obsession - if they could only eat meat then that's what they'll do - I consider the counsel to eat meat sparingly to be directed at them. In my family of four, we eat meat everyday which could be pork, chicken, lamb, mutton or beef - sometimes we eat game (e.g Kudu or Warthog) but not excessively or rather in large portions but meat and poultry forms part of our daily diet. 

[stemelbow]

14 hours ago, cinepro said:

I try and balance D&C 89 with D&C 49, where we learn this:

 

 

 

But where's the balance?  We have one part of scripture saying, eat it.  It's fine.  And another part saying, well I prefer you not to eat it at all, if possible ("And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used,  only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine").  Seeing as we can get by without meat in winter or cold or famine, we ought to not eat it at all, in this part of scripture.  But yet in another it's good for use of food.  It seems to me in this case, the only way to harmonize scripture is to shrug off one or the other and say, "eh...I don't buy that part of scripture, but this part is good".  I'm fine with that, but that brings a meaning to scripture we don't often talk about. 

[jandarable]

To me, sparingly means about 4 to 8 oz. (depending upon size of person and the physical work they do) of meat no more than once a day. Not making meat as ''star" of meal, just a part of it.

Personally, we  plan many meatless meals into our diet using vegetables, dry beans/lentils, whole grains, fruits/nuts/seeds as my guide, With use sparingly of meat, dairy, oils, sugar/sweeteners.  We also choose to not eat out very often. But when we do, we like mexican, italian, and chinese.

 

Translated, for example, it looks like this:

Breakfast........ brown rice n' raisins with almond milk ...........cracked wheat with butter n' honey / fresh fruit.............all oatmeal pancakes with applesauce..........black n' white rice with butter / fresh fruit or juice............green smoothie and whole grain toast...............huevos rancheros plate / 4 oz. juice..............lentils n' egg / whole wheat toast / fruit............plain whole milk yogurt flavored with freezer jam / whole wheat muffins / fresh fruit................oatmeal n' raspberries or strawberries with milk..........etc....etc......

 

Main meals..........red lentil tomato soup with whole grain roll or bread...........spaghetti with meat sauce / leafy green salad (if having for special meal, we make homemade french bread: the only white bread I ever make and not too often, but the fam loves it).............chicken breast / buttered black rice / steamed broccoli / sous vide ginger carrots.............chili with beans and meat / whole grain southern cornbread wedges..............fish / coleslaw / corn / parsley potatoes...............rajma (Indian kidney beans) over basmati rice / cucumber slices................creamy mac n' cheese / steamed broccoli................golden wheat patties (success making this for company, they are always surprised that it tastes good) / garlic mashed potatoes / cream gravy / green beans / leafy green salad.............italian lentil wheat stew / homemade refrig crescent rolls.................homemade pizza (dough has some whole wheat flour, I like 2/3 whole wheat, but fam likes less) / fresh raw veggie tray with homemade ranch dressing................grilled cheese on whole grain bread / homemade tomato soup..................tostados made with refried beans and fresh salsa and lettuce, etc...................black beans n' sausage over black n' white rice, topped with cheese...............'chicken-fried' dinner patties (oatmeal based) / mashed potatoes / gravy / green peas / butter carrots..................majuraddah (lentils and carmelized onions)..............lentil tacos with lime, salsa, sour cream, cilantro (family favorite)...........roast beef / potatoes / carrots / spinach salad / whole wheat rolls..............spiralized zucchini noodles cooked with onions and garlic topped with meatless italian sauce and fresh grated parmesan..........baby limas n' ham / homemade marvelous rye bread..................chicken vegetable soup with homemade noodles..............sous vide steak / baked potatoes or yams / large leafy green salad...............potlicker pinto beans topped with crushed crispy bacon / oatmeal muffins / celery sticks...............boston baked beans / coleslaw / brown bread muffins...............leafy green salad topped with garbanzos, string beets, tomatoes, and homemade feta ranch dressing..............carrot n' wheat sprout salad (grated carrots, fresh grown wheat sprouts, bit of cream cheese, crushed pineapple undrained) / oatmeal rolls.........broccoli bacon salad / popovers...............sweet pork salad (or version of Cafe Rio)..........etc......etc......      

My idea is to use meat sparingly, but have a lot of veggies when occasionally having a meat such roast........

 

Dessert (occasionally, we don't have dessert every night).........fresh fruit in season is most common............strawberries dipped in brown sugar and sour cream...........pumpkin bars..........apple pie with crumb top...............blueberry oat muffins...........carrot cookies.............lentil apple cake (needs no frosting)...........pinto pie with wheaty crust...........chocolate chip cookies made with part whole wheat flour...........blueberry buckle.....................chocolate lentil cake with fluffy frosting............fresh in season strawberry of peach pie with whipped cream (can make the 'gel' out of crushed fresh berries or peaches to stay away from food dyes, especially reds)....................(our goal is to have a fruit/ vegetable/ or occasional grain based dessert)......

 

   

A wonderful book that has helped tremendously over the years: Word of Wisdom by John A. and Leah D. Widstoe, I am blessed to have an original copy of this book.

 

 

 

[Meadowchik]

I think "sparingly" refers to eating meat in a fashion to save. It could mean to save leftovers for the next day, or to save for next month or year, or to be sure to not eat up all the herd much like when people eat up all their seed corn for the next year.  It means prudence.  I think it can also mean to not wantonly disregard the life being taken for the meat, to only do so at the very most if eating it is beneficial, to not waste or merely eat for the sake of eating or kill for the sake of killing.

[halconero]

This video is a nice summary of my views as expressed through the quotes of various presidents and apostles:

In sum, discontinuing the use of animal flesh for consumption is the ideal except in dire circumstances.

[Doctrine 612]

What are your thoughts about the added comma in verse 13.

[Mystery Meat]

54 minutes ago, halconero said:

This video is a nice summary of my views as expressed through the quotes of various presidents and apostles:

In sum, discontinuing the use of animal flesh for consumption is the ideal except in dire circumstances.

Thank you for sharing. My thoughts are solidifying.

So how do you feel about veganism? Does eating cheese, milk and butter violate the Word of Wisdom in your mind for similar reasons?

[Avatar4321]

I probably eat too much meat. 

Don't worry, it's not mystery meat so you're safe 

Edited June 2, 2016 by Avatar4321
Spelling edit

[T-Shirt]

On 6/1/2016 at 3:39 PM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I don't see the nuance or subjectivity. Not only are we to eat meat sparingly, the next verse states "And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used,  only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine."

If you are confused about the comma followed by "only" here, I refer you to verse 5 where ", only" is used before an exception to the prohibition against wine drinking is given. If you think the comma shouldn't be there at all, I refer you to an excellent article in Interpreter by Jane Birch: http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/questioning-the-comma-in-verse-13-of-the-word-of-wisdom/

The word, "only" is also used in verse fifteen where it does not refer to an exception.  I think Jane Birch's article is very good, but I don't fully agree with her conclusion.  If I get some time, maybe I will expound on my thoughts.  

[BlueDreams]

54 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

Thank you for sharing. My thoughts are solidifying.

So how do you feel about veganism? Does eating cheese, milk and butter violate the Word of Wisdom in your mind for similar reasons?

When I switched to organic milk I jokingly said that my vegetarian conscience caught up with me. I started dishing out the cash for organic milk and sometimes butter. And I buy those sparingly as well (reduced my milk to a half-gallon every other week and last month just had one half-gallon of milk period) Still haven't pulled it with the eggs, but I probably will at some point in my life. Animals don't die from these things alone....but the process is often exploitative of animal life, can drastically shorten their lifespan based on their productivity, and violates some of those things that the video halconero brought up (particularly the sanctity of an animal's life). I also think a lot about the fact that in the creation accounts of the animals finding joy in their creation. The practices make this basically impossible for the animals involved to have such. I'm by far not perfect. Like I said, I still eat eggs and dairy. My cheese is circumspect and so are my eggs. But I'm not about to go vegan either. I think you can partake in animal by-products in ways that still respect and honor the animal's life. 

 

With luv,

BD  

Edited June 3, 2016 by BlueDreams

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, halconero said:

This video is a nice summary of my views as expressed through the quotes of various presidents and apostles.....In sum, discontinuing the use of animal flesh for consumption is the ideal except in dire circumstances.

Thanks! I really liked the idea of sparingly = sparing the animal's life. It's one of those things that I feel should have been obvious to me, but really wasn't without the quote. It makes me rethink my journey with(out) meat and wonder if at least some of it was part of following the Spirit more than I give it credit.

 

With luv,

BD

[rodheadlee]

On 6/1/2016 at 9:04 AM, Mystery Meat said:

As an attorney, I spend my day dealing with nuance and subjectivity. Perhaps, few words are more subjective in the commandments of God, then the word sparingly when it comes to the consumption of meat. I would be curious to know how each of you treat this part of the Word of Wisdom. It has been on my mind as of late and I feel like a change is in order in my life.

Note: this thread is not the place to discuss the Word of Wisdom as a commandment, the love of animals, or what science has to say about anything. If you can't stay on topic, you will be removed.

I eat meat sparingly. I am a breaditarian. 

[Ahab]

20 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I eat meat sparingly. I am a breaditarian. 

With some veggies and nuts on some occasions,  I hope. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, T-Shirt said:

The word, "only" is also used in verse fifteen where it does not refer to an exception.  I think Jane Birch's article is very good, but I don't fully agree with her conclusion.  If I get some time, maybe I will expound on my thoughts.  

In verse 15, only is used to signify the only times you should eat meat are in "times of famine and excess of hunger." Look, I'm as much a cafeteria applier of the scriptures as the next Mormon (actually much more so), but the meaning of the verse is clear, and it is also consistent with how early Church leaders interpreted it. To pretend otherwise is just deluding yourself. Luckily the WoW is not given by way of commandment.

Edited June 3, 2016 by SeekingUnderstanding

[T-Shirt]

10 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

In verse 15, only is used to signify the only times you should eat meat are in "times of famine and excess of hunger." Look, I'm as much a cafeteria applier of the scriptures as the next Mormon (actually much more so), but the meaning of the verse is clear, and it is also consistent with how early Church leaders interpreted it. To pretend otherwise is just deluding yourself. Luckily the WoW is not given by way of commandment.

You might want to wait until I actually provide my position before you call me deluded.  If I get a chance, I will post more.  If not, I guess I will remain deluded in your book:)

[JAHS]

2 hours ago, Doctrine 612 said:

What are your thoughts about the added comma in verse 13.

The original 1835 edition of the Book of Commandments, leaves out that very important comma in verse 13, causing it to read:
"And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine."

With the comma gone after the word "used" it now reads that eating of meats should not be restricted to times of winter or famine. No one knows for sure who put the comma in there for subsequent editions , only that it was inserted by an editor (possibly James E. Talmadge in 1921)who was preparing the text for a new printing. Researchers are unaware of any direction from Church authorities to make the change. Regardless of this, the previous verse (12) does say we should eat meat "sparingly", but we should not abstain completely as evident in the scripture:

"And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God; (D&C 49: 18)

I think it makes sense to leave the comma in, at least as far as it was prudent for the saints at the time who could not preserve meats as well during the warmer months as we can today.

[BCSpace]

On 6/1/2016 at 9:04 AM, Mystery Meat said:

As an attorney, I spend my day dealing with nuance and subjectivity. Perhaps, few words are more subjective in the commandments of God, then the word sparingly when it comes to the consumption of meat. I would be curious to know how each of you treat this part of the Word of Wisdom. It has been on my mind as of late and I feel like a change is in order in my life.

Note: this thread is not the place to discuss the Word of Wisdom as a commandment, the love of animals, or what science has to say about anything. If you can't stay on topic, you will be removed.

Meat is not the part of the WoW that a commandment.  Hence it falls under the category of the WoW being a model for you to intelligently look at food.  So...

Decades ago in a Church magazine, iirc, science was quoted in that a couple of ounces of meat every day was good for satisfying hunger and prevent over-eating.

I've had much weight-loss success with a low or zero carb diet.

Wheat (carbohydrates) is the staff of life.

Scriptures against forbidding meat.

Putting it all together...

1. An active lifestyle requires a large staff.  A sedentary one, a smaller staff.  Therefore, limiting carb intake based on lifestyle is necessary.  This leaves meat and vegetables as the primary food source.

2. Meat is good and can be eaten everyday.  I don't eat all the meat I can handle, but I do eat more than two ounces per day.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, JAHS said:

The original 1835 edition of the Book of Commandments, leaves out that very important comma in verse 13, causing it to read:
"And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine."

With the comma gone after the word "used" it now reads that eating of meats should not be restricted to times of winter or famine. No one knows for sure who put the comma in there for subsequent editions , only that it was inserted by an editor (possibly James E. Talmadge in 1921)who was preparing the text for a new printing. Researchers are unaware of any direction from Church authorities to make the change. Regardless of this, the previous verse (12) does say we should eat meat "sparingly", but we should not abstain completely as evident in the scripture:

"And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God; (D&C 49: 18)

I think it makes sense to leave the comma in, at least as far as it was prudent for the saints at the time who could not preserve meats as well during the warmer months as we can today.

See this excellent Interpreter article here about the comma: http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/questioning-the-comma-in-verse-13-of-the-word-of-wisdom/

There is not conflict with D&C 49 as meat is not forbidden in the WoW. D&C 89 just states that we should use it only during times of cold, famine or winter and then sparingly.  

 

And Rockpond gets taken to task for stating the Proclamation on the Family is silent on gay marriage...

Edited June 3, 2016 by SeekingUnderstanding

[JAHS]

30 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

There is not conflict with D&C 49 as meat is not forbidden in the WoW. D&C 89 just states that we should use it only during times of cold, famine or winter and then sparingly.

Yep I agree and that was a good article. It seems to me that if it were meant to say we should only eat meat in times of cold famine or winter there would have been a word like "except"  instead of the comma

"And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used except in times of winter, or of cold, or famine."