Should Mormons Eat Meat "sparingly", As Taught In Doctrine & Covenants 89?

[BlueDreams]

IMNSHO it is much better to take your carrots add some potatoes, some onions, a clove of garlic, some bell peppers and a roast and combine them in a slow cooker and when I get home from church sit down to a good meal.

It's not a bad opinion...unless you're a vegetarian and don't own a slow cooker. Personally the small carrots ended up in a roasted veggies dish of, eggplant, carrot, bell peppers, onion, mushroom, and veggie-meat stuff, seasoned in olive oil, garlic, fresh thyme, oregano, and Rosemary and a little veggie-stock and sprinkled with Gouda cheese on top. All but a few of these ingredients also came from the garden. I assure you, you would have approved.

The big carrots are going into an assortment of squash soups. All homemade and all delicious!

[MiserereNobis]

This is rather a tangent, but does the general Mormon population agree or disagree with cooking with wine?  The alcohol obviously is cooked off, but is that enough to make it ok or is it to close to the appearance of evil?

 

I know you all might have your own opinion, but I'm asking for the majority Mormon opinion, if you can channel it

[Calm]

I suspect in the US at least majority is don't do it just to be sure in their own home, more casual about it at restaurants.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Calm

[Sky]

I sometimes cook with wine or eat certain dishes that were cooked in it.  It's hard to go to an Italian restaurant and not have a meal that was cooked with wine.  I'd imagine that other Mormons are not that much different from me in that respect.  

 

And besides, what sense does it make to get all uptight about a meal cooked with wine, but not bat an eye when it's loaded with saturated fat and sodium??  God expects us to use our brains and common sense.     

[MiserereNobis]

 It's hard to go to an Italian restaurant and not have a meal that was cooked with wine.

 

Ah, those lovely drunken Italian Catholics!

 

“Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,

There’s always laughter and good red wine.

At least I’ve always found it so.

Benedicamus Domino!”

-- Hilaire Belloc

[ERayR]

It's not a bad opinion...unless you're a vegetarian and don't own a slow cooker. Personally the small carrots ended up in a roasted veggies dish of, eggplant, carrot, bell peppers, onion, mushroom, and veggie-meat stuff, seasoned in olive oil, garlic, fresh thyme, oregano, and Rosemary and a little veggie-stock and sprinkled with Gouda cheese on top. All but a few of these ingredients also came from the garden. I assure you, you would have approved.

The big carrots are going into an assortment of squash soups. All homemade and all delicious!

 

Sounds like it would be worth a try.  The only thing I am Leary about is the Gouda cheese.  While I like cheese there are certain cheeses that I don't like.  one being anything made with goats milk and anything sharper than medium cheddar.  The rest sounds great.

[MiserereNobis]

Sounds like it would be worth a try.  The only thing I am Leary about is the Gouda cheese.  While I like cheese there are certain cheeses that I don't like.  one being anything made with goats milk and anything sharper than medium cheddar.  The rest sounds great.

 

Soft smelly cheeses are the best!

 

Having said that, I doubt I'll try casu marzu anytime soon.  I'm not really down with the whole maggots inside of me soft smelly cheese part...

 

[ERayR]

Soft smelly cheeses are the best!

 

Having said that, I doubt I'll try casu marzu anytime soon.  I'm not really down with the whole maggots inside of me soft smelly cheese part...

 

 

The only thing I can think of is BARF oh no Barf again.

[MiserereNobis]

The only thing I can think of is BARF oh no Barf again.

 

I guess those cheese maggots can jump like 6 inches, so people have to eat the cheese while covering it with their hand so the maggots don't jump into their face.

 

Man!

[ERayR]

I guess those cheese maggots can jump like 6 inches, so people have to eat the cheese while covering it with their hand so the maggots don't jump into their face.

 

Man!

 

Somebody else can have my serving.

[Anijen]

Sparingly means four times a week and not everyday? Bacon twice a day and not three times? Yup, I can spare to cut down my meat consumption.

[The Nehor]

Mormoms really don't live the word of wisdom. They pat themselves on the back for not smoking or drinking alcohol or avoiding coffee and tea which are actually quite good for you. Yet so many a Mormons are over weight, have diabetes and other health problems that come from over eating. But hey avoid a glass of wine or w couple beers a day and God loves us.

 

 

Yep, one of my weirdest sacrament meeting moments was listening to a morbidly obese man (guessing 350+) plagued with continual health problems due to his weight bear testimony of the Word of Wisdom and how it blessed his life. Ummm.....okay.

[The Nehor]

Jesus' first miracle, as we know, was turning water into wine for a party.  And that wine was so good that people wondered why the good wine hadn't been brought out first (before everyone got tipsy and lost the ability for subtle discernment).

 

Also, Jesus made A LOT of wine.  120-180 gallons.  That sure helped keep the partying going!

 

Hence why the Word of Wisdom is clearly a temporary commandment. It says right out it is only applicable under current conditions. When the Lord returns and brings new wine for us to drink in his kingdom I expect some LDS to be deeply confused.

[The Nehor]

Apostle James E. Talmage added the comma in 1920. Before he added the comma, verse 13 said that it is pleasing to the Lord that the flesh of beasts and fowls should not be eaten only in times of winter, cold, or famine but should be eaten in other times as well.

 

The added comma clearly reverses the meaning of verse 13. With the comma, it reads, “And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.”

 

The new Talmage version would mean that it would please the Lord if you ate meat only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine, and if you eat meat at any time other than “times of winter, or of cold, or famine,” it is clearly displeasing to the Lord.

 

I have Teachings of the Latter-day prophets from Brigham Young to Thomas S. Monson, and I have read anything I could find regarding what the prophets have said about meat and the Word of Wisdom. No prophet has ever spoken disparagingly about eating meat. They have never said people should eat less meat or eat it sparingly.

 

As for verse 12, “Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly,” I am sure the Lord had a reason for telling the saints at Kirtland, Ohio to eat animals sparingly in 1833. It could be that they did not have a lot to go around, or it could be that they had an abundance and some of the saints were gorging themselves on meat while neglecting fruits and grains. Hence, He told His children that fruits and grains are good for them.

 

If meat was bad for us the Lord would have sad so, just like He did with “wine or strong drink,” and that tobacco is “not good” for man, and “hot drinks,” which He revealed “are not for the body or belly.”

 

Again, the Lord never said meat is “bad” or “not good” for man to eat.

 

That is my take.

 

This is not correct. We have no direct evidence as to why the comma was added (Talmage may have added it but we cannot prove it).

 

The word 'only' could in the 19th century mean something more akin to 'except'. The word changed so it is likely someone on the committee added the comma to avoid confusion due to the changing language.

 

Before this change was made many prophets and apostles clearly understood and taught that the verse meant that the eating of meat was to be restricted to necessity and winter. No one at the time the comma was added seemed to think it was a significant change either until the 60s, 40 years after the change.

 

Most tellingly of all in the 1981 edition the placement of the comma was reviewed by the committee and after consultations with the Twelve and First Presidency McConkie's decision to leave it there was affirmed.

 

The interpretation got popular because it told people what they wanted to here. I am not a vegetarian. I am, at best, a situational vegetarian. I almost never buy meat to cook and eat on my own but I eat it when someone serves it to me and sometimes at restaurants. This still may put me under condemnation under the Word of Wisdom but hiding behind facile misreadings of the text only compounds the problem.

Edited November 2, 2015 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

Moderation.  Nuf said.

 

The problem is that the Word of Wisdom does not mention moderation. If we apply moderation to Word of Wisdom "Do Nots" then the occasional beer, glass of wine, and cigar are acceptable.

[ERayR]

All of us tend to rationalize our own behavior and condemn others behavior.

[MiserereNobis]

All of us tend to rationalize our own behavior and condemn others behavior.

 

Speak for yourself, ERayR.

 

[ERayR]

Speak for yourself, ERayR.

 

 

Note the "All of us"

[Storm Rider]

I think we should eat meat sparingly, but not eat it just in winter or times of famine. This revelation was given at a time when there were no grocery stores that we could go to to get meat whenever we wanted.

 

Hello JAHS, I am uncomfortable with assigning motivation for the 89th Section.  Assuming that the admonition to eat meat sparingly was only given because grocery stores and all of the other potential advances seems beyond our understanding or any teachings or revelation.  

 

The Section simply instructs a way of eating and identifies blessings if we willingly observe those instructions.  No explanations were provided in scripture or by later revelation.  

 

The instruction to eat meat sparingly does not enter into any temple worthiness questions, yet it remains part of the Word of Wisdom.  If we want the blessings I believe we need to obey the full set of guidelines or there is no promise.

[jkwilliams]

Sounds like it would be worth a try. The only thing I am Leary about is the Gouda cheese. While I like cheese there are certain cheeses that I don't like. one being anything made with goats milk and anything sharper than medium cheddar. The rest sounds great.

Gouda is a mild cheese made with cow's milk, so it shouldn't be a problem.

[MiserereNobis]

Note the "All of us"

 

Sorry, I was attempting humor

[The Nehor]

Hello JAHS, I am uncomfortable with assigning motivation for the 89th Section.  Assuming that the admonition to eat meat sparingly was only given because grocery stores and all of the other potential advances seems beyond our understanding or any teachings or revelation.  

 

The Section simply instructs a way of eating and identifies blessings if we willingly observe those instructions.  No explanations were provided in scripture or by later revelation.  

 

The instruction to eat meat sparingly does not enter into any temple worthiness questions, yet it remains part of the Word of Wisdom.  If we want the blessings I believe we need to obey the full set of guidelines or there is no promise.

 

Also, the commandment not to use tobacco came before e-cigs were even conceived of so clearly the counsel is outdated.

[JAHS]

Hello JAHS, I am uncomfortable with assigning motivation for the 89th Section.  Assuming that the admonition to eat meat sparingly was only given because grocery stores and all of the other potential advances seems beyond our understanding or any teachings or revelation.  

 

The Section simply instructs a way of eating and identifies blessings if we willingly observe those instructions.  No explanations were provided in scripture or by later revelation.  

 

The instruction to eat meat sparingly does not enter into any temple worthiness questions, yet it remains part of the Word of Wisdom.  If we want the blessings I believe we need to obey the full set of guidelines or there is no promise.

"And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine."

 

In my opinion that comma should not have been added in the sentence. It was not in the original version.

If the comma were left out it would be more consistant with the following scriptures:

 

"And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;

For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance." (D&C 49:18-19; see also 1 Tim. 4:1-3.)

 

What sense does it make for us today to only eat meat in the winter time? (think of people living in other parts of the world)  I am sure that a very small percentage of members(if any) follow this advice. There are other parts of the section that are also not strictly followed. I think that if we at least live the spirit of the Word of Wisdom (as directed by our leaders today) we will still reap some of the blessings from doing so even if we might not get the full measure of all the blessings by living the letter.

Edited November 3, 2015 by JAHS

[The Nehor]

 

"And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine."

 

In my opinion that comma should not have been added in the sentence. It was not in the original version.

If the comma were left out it would be more consistant with the following scriptures:

 

"And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;

For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance." (D&C 49:18-19; see also 1 Tim. 4:1-3.)

 

What sense does it make for us today to only eat meat in the winter time? (think of people living in other parts of the world)  I am sure that a very small percentage of members(if any) follow this advice. There are other parts of the section that are also not strictly followed. I think that if we at least live the spirit of the Word of Wisdom (as directed by our leaders today) we will still reap some of the blessings from doing so even if we might not get the full measure of all the blessings by living the letter.

 

 

The problem with that is that the prophets and apostles both before and after the change did not read it that way.

 

Even without the comma the reading is dubious:

 

"That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness."

 

If you read this verse using the same grammar as the Word of Wisdom one then God is saying here that you additionally need non-righteous principles to control or handle the Priesthood.

 

The commandment not to eat meat in the Bible can contradict the Word of Wisdom easily as the Word of Wisdom is specific to this dispensation. As to Section 49 that was a repudiation of Shaker beliefs that eating meat was entirely wrong. The Word of Wisdom does not forbid the eating of meat. It just limits when it should be eaten.

[JAHS]

The problem with that is that the prophets and apostles both before and after the change did not read it that way.

 

Even without the comma the reading is dubious:

 

"That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness."

 

If you read this verse using the same grammar as the Word of Wisdom one then God is saying here that you additionally need non-righteous principles to control or handle the Priesthood.

 

The commandment not to eat meat in the Bible can contradict the Word of Wisdom easily as the Word of Wisdom is specific to this dispensation. As to Section 49 that was a repudiation of Shaker beliefs that eating meat was entirely wrong. The Word of Wisdom does not forbid the eating of meat. It just limits when it should be eaten.

So in the temple recommend question where it asks us if we keep the word of wisdom, should everyone who eats meat during the summer time say that they don't keep the word of wisdom?

Because that does not seem to apply to the temple recommend question it seems that we are at least reaping the blessings of the temple by living a part of the principle. And that's enough for me.