Word Of Wisdom: From Principle To Requirement

[thesometimesaint]

Are 8 year old children asked these same questions? Do they covenant to keep the WoW or is it only older investigators? Also, isn't there a difference between interview questions and the baptismal covenant found in the scriptures?

 

Yes.

 

Yes, all are asked the same questions.

 

Not that I know of.

[Kenngo1969]

 

This is probably just an issue of semantics, but the word of wisdom does not exclude people from the temple.  People make choices that exclude them from the temple.  ...

 

 

Yes and no: in order to become addicted to a substance, first, one must make the choice to try it (or to overindulge, as with an "addiction" to, e.g., food, if such a phenomenon exists).  However, once one becomes addicted, rarely does one's use of that substance continue to be a choice in the same way it would be a choice for a nonaddicted person.  Once that happens, the likelihood of one's overcoming the addiction without help greatly diminishes.

[Kenngo1969]

One of these blessings is life.  I wonder at what point the destroying angel of verse 21 would

slay you for going against church policy.  Also, I'm unsure of which Latter-day Saints of today

would use strong drinks to wash their bodies.

 

Regards,

Jim 

The "destroying angel" doesn't slay you for "going against Church policy," Jimmy!  Are you seriously arguing that you know nothing about the now-amply-demonstrated deleterious effects of such substances prohibited by the Word of Wisdom as it is currently practiced as alcohol and harmful drugs?  Have you seriously never met anyone who has fallen prey to addiction to those substances, or have all of the people you've met who have, at one time, found themselves in that circumstance, told you that even though their life as an addict was all "sweetness and light," they decided to kick their addiction just for the heck of it?

Edited May 30, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[telnetd]

The "destroying angel" doesn't slay you for "going against Church policy," 

 

Hi Ken,

 

I would agree with the context below.

 

"And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the

commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones; And shall

find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures; And shall run and

not be weary, and shall walk and not faint. And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that

the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. 

 

Regardless of whether the Word of Wisdom is a policy or commandment, the slaying part

is punishment for disobedience. You can't even get a temple recommend without obeying

this policy... or whatever you call it.

 

Sorry Jimmy (Jim?) for cutting in.

 

Gail

[Scott Lloyd]

I agree. Though he said there isn't a "Here is the revelation to make this change" kind of revelation, there was inspiration influenced by many different factors. I like this analysis because it gives us an example of how things are worked through in logical, every-day kinds of ways instead of expecting a "thus saith the Lord" kind of revelation through the prophet. Anyone who has worked in a church council recognizes that there are many influences involved with inspiration.

i think people err seriously when they cite the influence of other factors as an excuse or rationalization to deny the occurrence of any divine communication. Studying it out in your mind (fact finding), arriving at a tentative course of action, asking if it be right and then listening for a response has always been the pattern at least from the days of Joseph Smith.

The response is not always written down or recorded. I daresay in most instances it is not.

Nothing irregular here.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[HappyJackWagon]

 

Posted 2 days ago

HappyJackWagon, on 29 May 2015 - 3:15 PM, said:

Are 8 year old children asked these same questions? Do they covenant to keep the WoW or is it only older investigators? Also, isn't there a difference between interview questions and the baptismal covenant found in the scriptures?

 

The SometimesSaint-

 

Yes.

 

Yes, all are asked the same questions.

 

Not that I know of.

I don't think this is correct. 8 year olds are not asked all the same questions as converts. If you doubt this, think about what kind of law of chastity conversation a bishop is going to have with an 8 year old. Missionaries who do baptismal interviews have a list of specific questions they are requried to ask. Bishops do not have a TR style list of questions to ask.

 

Regarding the covenant that is entered into at baptism, I don't believe the WoW has anything to do with it unless one wants to consider the  "keep the commandments" covenant to include the WoW. In other words, the WoW is never spelled out in that way, therefore someone who makes covenants at baptism would not be under covenant to keep the WoW IF the policy of the WoW changed since it isn't a commandment at all.

 

 

MOSIAH 18

 

8 And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are ^adesirous to come into the ^bfold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light;

  9 Yea, and are ^awilling to mourn with those that ^bmourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as ^cwitnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the ^dfirst resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

  10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being ^abaptized in the ^bname of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a ^ccovenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?

  11 And now when the people had heard these words, they clapped their hands for joy, and exclaimed: This is the desire of our hearts.

Edited June 1, 2015 by HappyJackWagon

[thesometimesaint]

 

I don't think this is correct. 8 year olds are not asked all the same questions as converts. If you doubt this, think about what kind of law of chastity conversation a bishop is going to have with an 8 year old. Missionaries who do baptismal interviews have a list of specific questions they are requried to ask. Bishops do not have a TR style list of questions to ask.

 

Regarding the covenant that is entered into at baptism, I don't believe the WoW has anything to do with it unless one wants to consider the  "keep the commandments" covenant to include the WoW. In other words, the WoW is never spelled out in that way, therefore someone who makes covenants at baptism would not be under covenant to keep the WoW IF the policy of the WoW changed since it isn't a commandment at all.

 

 

MOSIAH 18

 

8 And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are ^adesirous to come into the ^bfold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light;

  9 Yea, and are ^awilling to mourn with those that ^bmourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as ^cwitnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the ^dfirst resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

  10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being ^abaptized in the ^bname of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a ^ccovenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?

  11 And now when the people had heard these words, they clapped their hands for joy, and exclaimed: This is the desire of our hearts.

 

 

There is no reason to get overly explicit for 8 year old's. But yes they are asked if they are willing to keep the law of chastity.

 

The Bishops are free to expand within the limits of the Baptismal questions if there is a question about compliance. But they are not allowed to ask irrelevant questions. IE; Few 8 year old's have outside of allowance income on which to base tithing. So it is mostly are you willing to pay a tithe when you do grow up.

 

The WoW question is quite specific. Do you keep it?

[HappyJackWagon]

There is no reason to get overly explicit for 8 year old's. But yes they are asked if they are willing to keep the law of chastity.

 

The Bishops are free to expand within the limits of the Baptismal questions if there is a question about compliance. But they are not allowed to ask irrelevant questions. IE; Few 8 year old's have outside of allowance income on which to base tithing. So it is mostly are you willing to pay a tithe when you do grow up.

 

The WoW question is quite specific. Do you keep it?

Can you provide a reference for the list of questions bishops are required to ask for baptismal interviews. I've seen the list for missionaries but I've never seen one for Bishops. They run through different lines of authority so I don't think it can be assumed that if one does it the other must also. A CHI citation would be very helpful for me to see if you can provide it.

[halconero]

Seriously - between agribusiness, GMO foods, processed food, obesity, diabetes, etc (the list is basically endless) we are being fed a diet of pure crap most of the time.  And most people either don't know, don't care, or can't afford to do anything about it.

 

The evils and designs in the hearts of conspiring men concerning our food supply is evident in every supermarket, and every doctors visit for something caused by a bad diet.

 

Corporate GMO's, I'll grant you can be bad. 

 

Genetic modification doesn't necessarily automatically mean bad. You can modify it have increased nutritional value, including proteins, increased yields in traditionally arid places, and allow people to grow food in famine stricken areas. Unfortunately, monsanto has modified them not out of the benefit of humanity, for their own personal gain.  

[thesometimesaint]

Can you provide a reference for the list of questions bishops are required to ask for baptismal interviews. I've seen the list for missionaries but I've never seen one for Bishops. They run through different lines of authority so I don't think it can be assumed that if one does it the other must also. A CHI citation would be very helpful for me to see if you can provide it.

 

Just experience with my own children. Sorry I don't have access to the CHI.

[JLHPROF]

Corporate GMO's, I'll grant you can be bad. 

 

Genetic modification doesn't necessarily automatically mean bad. You can modify it have increased nutritional value, including proteins, increased yields in traditionally arid places, and allow people to grow food in famine stricken areas. Unfortunately, monsanto has modified them not out of the benefit of humanity, for their own personal gain.  

 

Any advances can be good or bad.  But you only have to look at our food supply to know that it is big business for lower quality.

And our health has suffered just as the WoW prophesied - conspiring men (big agribusiness).  The whole reason God gave the WoW is because evil men in the last days were going to have some impact on our food and health.

 

D&C 89:4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—

 

The most ignored verse in the whole Word of Wisdom...the reason we have it at all.

[ERMD]

I choose to follow the living prophets, seers, and revelators today. I may be simple in doing that, but so be it.

[Tacenda]

Heard on the news today that Utah has one of the highest rates of Alzheimer's. The first thing I thought of was that it might be because of the WoW. I wonder if it's true that tea and coffee help decrease Alzheimer's. Maybe even wine helps curb it. Does anyone have information on this?

[Calm]

Utah has one of the highest rates of autism in children, somehow I doubt that it is the lack of green tea and black coffee that leaves children without protection.

 

I believe the latest research is that pollution is a likely culprit.  In a way where the designing of evil men to promoted a culture of consumerism, where everyone must have their own car, a large house, etc. buy more, more and more means eventually more pollution to deal with so I supposed on could tie in WoW to autism in that way.  If all around us choose to live a simpler life, chose to carpool, raised one's own food and plant lots of good airclearning trees....would be interested to see if that stat could be turned around.

[HappyJackWagon]

Utah has one of the highest rates of autism in children, somehow I doubt that it is the lack of green tea and black coffee that leaves children without protection.

 

I believe the latest research is that pollution is a likely culprit.  In a way where the designing of evil men to promoted a culture of consumerism, where everyone must have their own car, a large house, etc. buy more, more and more means eventually more pollution to deal with so I supposed on could tie in WoW to autism in that way.  If all around us choose to live a simpler life, chose to carpool, raised one's own food and plant lots of good airclearning trees....would be interested to see if that stat could be turned around.

Utah would need to be the most polluted state for pollution to correlate to Alzheimers or autism. I don't think that's the case. That correlation would also hold up in other states. Are you aware of a study that shows this correlation?

[Calm]

https://www.autismspeaks.org/science/science-news/largest-ever-study-autism-pollution-shows-strong-link-during-pregnancy

And how the specific type of air pollutant involved becomes a problem for parts of Utah:

http://www.ci.slc.ut.us/winter-inversions-what-are-they-and-what-we-can-all-do-help

Edited June 3, 2015 by calmoriah

[Jeanne]

Heard on the news today that Utah has one of the highest rates of Alzheimer's. The first thing I thought of was that it might be because of the WoW. I wonder if it's true that tea and coffee help decrease Alzheimer's. Maybe even wine helps curb it. Does anyone have information on this?

Because I am a gym rat...I read lots of magazines with great health issues and progress in medicine..every one of them proclaim studies that coffee/tea and yes even a little red wine has its benefits.  Remember just plain old aspirin?  It was good..then not..now it is good again in small doses for hearts and other things.  I believe anything in moderation can be beneficial.  Ice cream isn'tgood for you if you eat more than a pint a day right?  I am not making justifications but I do know my mom would have been a happier person with a cuppa in the morning...I don't like coffee but I love cooking with alcohol and an occasional glass of wine when I go out  to dinner.  I am looked down upon in a liqour store and yet in a grocery store in front of me in line is a huge basket full of chips/cookies/doughnuts and loads of pork..go figure.  I used to have food storage and had to throw it out. Just misunderstood I guess on how much to buy..??  The WOW is just commons sense and should not even be a part of the Temple requirements unless they want to include Snickers!

Edited June 5, 2015 by Jeanne

[HappyJackWagon]

 I am not making justifications but I do know my mom would have been a happier person with a cuppa in the morning...I don't like coffee but I love cooking with alcohol and an occasional glass of wine when I go out  to dinner.  I am looked down upon in a liqour store and yet in a grocery store in front of me in line is a huge basket full of chips/cookies/doughnuts and loads of pork..go figure.  

 

  The WOW is just commons sense and should not even be a part of the Temple requirements unless they want to include Snickers!

Is cooking with alcohol frowned upon? I love a good jack daniels glaze on salmon or ribs or just about anything. I know there's a myth that ALL the alcohol cooks out but I don't think this is true. Still, it would be consumption on a miniscule basis. I may have to eat 10 slabs of ribs to get a buzz Of course, since I've never had a buzz I'm just guessing. 

 

Oh- and Snickers better not be included in the WoW. I would be in serious trouble.

[ttribe]

Oh- and Snickers better not be included in the WoW. I would be in serious trouble.

 

Reese's for me.

[thesometimesaint]

Is cooking with alcohol frowned upon? I love a good jack daniels glaze on salmon or ribs or just about anything. I know there's a myth that ALL the alcohol cooks out but I don't think this is true. Still, it would be consumption on a miniscule basis. I may have to eat 10 slabs of ribs to get a buzz Of course, since I've never had a buzz I'm just guessing. 

 

Oh- and Snickers better not be included in the WoW. I would be in serious trouble.

 

Don't use the imitation vanilla as it contains stuff, no alcohol, that is really bad for you. Use real vanilla extract. There is always a little bit of alcohol that doesn't evaporate off. But it is so small as to not make any difference, unless you're allergic to alcohol. So enjoy those ribs in moderation.

 

Snickers, food of the Gods.

[Jeanne]

Don't use the imitation vanilla as it contains stuff, no alcohol, that is really bad for you. Use real vanilla extract. There is always a little bit of alcohol that doesn't evaporate off. But it is so small as to not make any difference, unless you're allergic to alcohol. So enjoy those ribs in moderation.

 

Snickers, food of the Gods.

Love this!  On an interesting note, I used to work in the candy aisle at a Walmart store   Every morning behind some licorice, I would find two empty bottles of pure vanilla.  Some customer was walking around a very  happy camper!

[Calm]

More likely an employee if it happened every morning.

[Tacenda]

Jeanne, I watched a few minutes of a movie that had men in a prison talking about their childhood in a support group.  One of the men said he couldn't be around the smell of vanilla, couldn't stand it.  I guess his father would drink it to get drunk, and wasn't very nice.

 

Also, my LDS in laws keep beer in their fridge.  My husband said it's to use in cooking or marinating meats.  Sometimes I think my MIL just needs to drink it plain, she is so stressed out about so many things, or feels guilt.  Very agitated trying to do the best she can.  Maybe she should just take a sip or two to calm herself down, for awhile she would almost be in tears, but she would never do it, or she does and just says it's to marinate foods!    But would it be better than meds?  I don't drink, I don't know if I dare, alcoholism runs in my family.  But wonder if a glass of wine once in awhile wouldn't hurt.  I think too many LDS rely on deadly meds to get through life.  And awful caffeinated sodas, (me) instead of tea or coffee.  Oh well, hopefully we can just do things in moderation.  What's that saying again.  "All things in moderation". 

Edited June 6, 2015 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

Hershey's Milk Chocolate Symphony Almond Toffee bar! 

[why me]

Jeanne, I watched a few minutes of a movie that had men in a prison talking about their childhood in a support group.  One of the men said he couldn't be around the smell of vanilla, couldn't stand it.  I guess his father would drink it to get drunk, and wasn't very nice.

 

Also, my LDS in laws keep beer in their fridge.  My husband said it's to use in cooking or marinating meats.  Sometimes I think my MIL just needs to drink it plain, she is so stressed out about so many things, or feels guilt.  Very agitated trying to do the best she can.  Maybe she should just take a sip or two to calm herself down, for awhile she would almost be in tears, but she would never do it, or she does and just says it's to marinate foods!    But would it be better than meds?  I don't drink, I don't know if I dare, alcoholism runs in my family.  But wonder if a glass of wine once in awhile wouldn't hurt.  I think too many LDS rely on deadly meds to get through life.  And awful caffeinated sodas, (me) instead of tea or coffee.  Oh well, hopefully we can just do things in moderation.  What's that saying again.  "All things in moderation". 

If family members would not have had that first glass of alcohol, they would have avoided alcoholism. It all starts with that first drink. The LDS are also a part of the world and meds are a part of that american world. The economic system puts people in stressful positions: survival of the fittest, materialism, greed, hedonism, investments, finance, commercialism, consumerism, etc.

 

I have seen many coffee drinkers wake up in the morning and have the shakes until they get that first cup. They need it. Not to mention energy drinks. What is the solution? Maybe when we can build an economic system that puts people before profits we will be able to enjoy the beauty of life in all its glory and beauty. The mormon way of life certainly can be a healing way of life with its strong sense of community. But all lds communities are reflections of their greater world that surronds them. So, in Europe, I would think that many lds are not on meds. Or in Asia. Or in africa. The American lds and meds are just a reflection of the USA and its addictions.

Edited June 6, 2015 by why me