Should Mormons Eat Meat "sparingly", As Taught In Doctrine & Covenants 89?

[Calm]

.

 

You place a salt shaker on a table. Ask someone to make a pile of salt on the table. Then ask them to do the same thing, but sparingly. I doubt the new pile will be close in size to the other.

Do you think if you just asked someone to shake salt sparingly on the table, they would or would not be able to do it if there was not a pile to compare it to as a standard?

[halconero]

As I stated earlier, I have "Teachings of the Latter-day Prophets" from Joseph Smith to Thomas S. Monson, and I have read anything I could find regarding what the prophets have said about meat and the Word of Wisdom. No prophet has ever spoken disparagingly about eating meat. They have never said people should eat less meat or eat it sparingly.

 

If Jesus Christ was directing mankind as a whole to use the flesh of beasts and of the fowls of the air "sparingly," one of His prophets would have expounded on it.

 

- Joseph Smith expounded on it:

“Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. … And surely, blood shall not be shed, only for meat, to save your lives; and the blood of every beast will I require at your hands.” (JST, Gen. 9:9–11.)

 

- Isaiah implies that vegetarianism will be the millennium diet:

 

“The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

 

“And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

 

“And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice’ den.

 

“They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.” (Isa. 11:6–9.)

 

Notice that the human is included with the animals listed here as species which shall not hurt nor destroy.

 

- God again expounded on your dietary ideals:

 

“And wo be unto man that sheddeth blood or that wasteth flesh and hath no need.” (D&C 21)

 

- Lorenzo Snow also expressed multiple times that a plant-based diet should be the default except in cases of necessity:

 

“Lorenzo Snow, then President of the Council of Twelve agreed, saying that he believed the Word of Wisdom was a commandment and that it should be carried out to the letter. In doing so, he said, members should be taught to refrain from eating meat except in dire necessity, because Joseph Smith had taught that animals have spirits.” - Brigham Young

 

"[President Lorenzo Snow paid] special attention to that part [of the Word of Wisdom] which relates to the use of meat, which he considered just as strong as that which related to the use of liquors and hot drinks. . . .

 

"[President Snow] was convinced that the killing of animals when unnecessary was wrong and sinful, and that it was not right to neglect one part of the Word of Wisdom and be too strenuous in regard to other parts." - [in Journal History of the Church, 5 May 1893, pp. 2–3, LDS Archives.]

 

[President Lorenzo Snow] introduced the subject of the Word of Wisdom, expressing the opinion that it was violated as much or more in the improper use of meat as in other things, and thought the time was near at hand when the Latter-day Saints should be taught to refrain from meat eating and the shedding of animal blood." [in Journal History of the Church, 11 March 1897, LDS Archives;]

 

- And again with George Q. Cannon:

 

"... Am I or my family hungry? If so, of course man is justified in killing animals or birds to satisfy his or his family's hunger. But if he has not any want of meat he "sheddeth blood," and he exposes himself to this wo which the Lord has pronounced." (Juvenile Instructor 34 [Oct 1,1899]: 592.)

 

------------------

 

The scriptures are remarkably consistent and clear on the matter:

 

Latter-day Saints are not to consume meat except in cases of starvation, famine, and absolute necessity. The forbidding of consumption in these cases is prohibited by God, and with good reason. Yet the glorying in meat-eating, doing so because it tastes good, and other considerations are sinful in this day and age when such necessity is not present in our circumstances. 

[thesometimesaint]

So only the spoiled rich can afford not to eat meat.

[halconero]

The costs relating to the production, distribution, and consumption of meat are higher than a plant-based diet:

http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/55529/2/lusk%20-%20current.pdf

 

Developing nations live on primarily plant-based diets, as meat is prohibitively expensive:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24398278

 

India is a case where we have a developing country, yet not in abject poverty where the majority of its people are and have been vegetarian or semi-vegetarian for the majority of human history.

 

As for anecdotal evidence, I'm not "spoiled rich," support myself, and have a total savings of less than $2000 dollars yet my food budget has remained generally unchanged since becoming a vegetarian. It hasn't affected my health, and in fact I've gained mass and muscle on it.

The reason why meat is as cheap as it is in North America (and usually way more expensive everywhere else) is because it's heavily subsidized in the United States and Canada. We've also developed those monstrosities called factory farms which industrialize the slaughter of animals in manners which are often deplorable and completely contrary to the letter and spirit of the Word of Wisdom and other Latter-day injunctions on diet. This luxury food has only become so available due to tax dollars, and our reliance upon out of shear pleasure will be held accountable by God.

[thatjimguy]

Do you think if you just asked someone to shake salt sparingly on the table, they would or would not be able to do it if there was not a pile to compare it to as a standard?

I don't think that makes a difference to the point I was making.

[thesometimesaint]

Pull a carrot out of the ground and it must be transported, properly stored, and prepared for human consumption. Raise your own chickens, rabbits, fish, pork, and beef(on a space available basis). So on a cost per protein basis those costs become almost negligibly different. I never said that someone can't have a healthy diet if a vegetarian. It is just much harder to do. That being said over-concentration on animal protein sources doesn't promote a healthy diet either. We are omnivorous, neither herbivores, nor carnivores. Our teeth and single stomach tell the story.

[RevTestament]

Pull a carrot out of the ground and it must be transported, properly stored, and prepared for human consumption. Raise your own chickens, rabbits, fish, pork, and beef(on a space available basis). So on a cost per protein basis those costs become almost negligibly different. I never said that someone can't have a healthy diet if a vegetarian. It is just much harder to do. That being said over-concentration on animal protein sources doesn't promote a healthy diet either. We are omnivorous, neither herbivores, nor carnivores. Our teeth and single stomach tell the story.

Bingo. I interpret to eat meat sparingly except in times of famine, as just that. If all we have to eat is meat, then to eat it every meal is OK. I personally try not to eat any more meat than one helping per day - typically only for dinner. That is plenty of the nutrients that we mostly need meat for. I eat daily fruit and veggies, little wheat, nut mix, etc.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

I voted Yes. I am striving to become a "seasonal vegetarian"- only partaking of (clean) flesh during the winter months. I do believe by-products: eggs, milk, cheese, etc... are acceptable year round.

[Bomgeography]

That would be a good idea

[Bomgeography]

Word of wisdom was inspired by god

[Bomgeography]

You can never go wrong if you follow the word of wisdom

[CV75]

Yes, we "should." Not doing so results in less “health in their navel and marrow to their bones”; less “wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;” less energized when running and less strong when walking; and less of “a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them” than they otherwise might have enjoyed.

 

It seems that grains are provided as a basic necessity (“staff of life”), and all wholesome herbs are appropriate as “ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man”. I think there is a lot of leeway in how the Lord judges worthiness, since only “strong drinks,” “tobacco” and “hot drinks” are proscribed and this serves today as part of worthiness interviews. So while I think "should" does not carry an expectation or condition for worthiness, someone might be held accountable for opportunities lost according to the light and knowledge he possesses on the subject -- but that is certainly the Lord's call.

[BlueDreams]

Pull a carrot out of the ground and it must be transported, properly stored, and prepared for human consumption. Raise your own chickens, rabbits, fish, pork, and beef(on a space available basis). So on a cost per protein basis those costs become almost negligibly different. I never said that someone can't have a healthy diet if a vegetarian. It is just much harder to do. That being said over-concentration on animal protein sources doesn't promote a healthy diet either. We are omnivorous, neither herbivores, nor carnivores. Our teeth and single stomach tell the story.

I pulled 3 carrots out of the ground the other day. I transported it by walking to my kitchen, cleaned it with some water and a scrubber, and put it in my fridge....100% organic so no worry for pesticides. It took a few inches of space, and a couple months to grow a very large and fat carrot.I watered it occasionally and loved it continually. In addition this little garden became a haven for local life, birds would fly in and eat the sunflower seed, bugs and polinators flourished in the abundance of flowers, O2 was the main run off. If I were to raise my own rabbits, I would need far more space, far more resources (ok they could probably feed on my lawn of grass and said carrots....but I want the carrots!), and it wouldn't be nearly as in balance as my little carrot was. I would then have to kill it, gut it, Clean off the bits I'm going to use, store it properly (or risk serious disease), and prepare it for human consumption...plus really clean off the bloody surfaces or again risk disease.  I do not see in what way a carrot is somehow harder or less effective to produce when you're comparing apples to apples in actual production (pun intended). Meat is also transported, must be properly stored, cut, and prepared for consumption. The way most meat is prepared in this country means that it's also being transported long distances and often coming from several site sources across the nation. This is in addition to run-off waste and pollution that plants can't make. There's simply more mess.

 

Raising ones own chicken, cows, pig, etc is fanciful and nice, but few of us have the training, space or capacity to do so. IN either sphere the cost is not negligibly different. Meat, by far, has a larger energy expenditure foot-print than just about any plant-based food. And if we honestly raised our own meat we'd probably be more sparing about how often we kill and consume them....because they definitely take more care than a carrot.

 

With luv,

BD

 

And protein is not all that man must live on and you would want to compare actual protein-rich plants. I'm not sure what a cost-per-protein basis has to do with carrot growing. No one grows a carrot for the protein.   

Edited October 29, 2015 by BlueDreams

[Zakuska]

Its intresting to note that the WOW didn't become part of the TR interview process (ie made a commandment) until after Prohibition kicked in in the United states from 1920 to 1933. I guess this is another instance where outside pressures and culture, changed internal policies and procedures and commandments in the church.

 

JS and others often drank good wine and beer. So did Jesus and the Apostles.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Zakuska

[Buckeye]

I think the most efficient source of growing protein is insects. John the baptist was on to something.

[Meadowchik]

The major problem isn't necessarily crop production, but for what those crops are being produced. Roughly 30% of the world's surface is currently devoted to animal agriculture. It is by far the largest contributor to green house gas emissions in the food production sector, both in methane produced by cattle and the crops devoted to feeding them. Both the [united Nations](http://www.unep.org/resourcepanel/Portals/24102/PDFs/PriorityProductsAndMaterials_Report.pdf) and [Cornell University](http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/660S.full) have found that a plant-based diet would drastically cut down on pollutants, both with GHG's and others.

As far as free-range farmers go, it's a slightly better option, but you still have to know the farmer personally. Most free-range farmers have as much certification as a crossfit trainer, meaning little-to-none. Free-range chicken farmers are currently required to only have a small access door for chickens, leading to crowding, trampling, and stampedes around the door. Hunting is another good option for small towns, but unsustainable at current population levels.

We're lucky, we live out in the country, drive past happily grazing milk cows between villages and we do know a milk/sometimes beef farmer. Our daughter helps bring in the cows when she visits their daughter. We already have a nice chicken house...maybe we'll have chickens in it this spring. And this will bw the 2nd year for our new fruit trees...I'm looking forward to trying my first red-flesh apple if it favors us....

I love living out in the country, can you tell?

[Calm]

I think the most efficient source of growing protein is insects. John the baptist was on to something.

My husband may eventually get a couple of chickens to eat the grasshoppers that have killed off some of our garden and young trees and shrubs. Have fresh eggs which would be tasty. Then we would give them away when it gets colder. I ask him if it is worth having the dog bark continually. So far the dog argument is winning.

[Calm]

I love living out in the country, can you tell?

Our apples are golden delicious, can't eat most store bought apples, peaches or cherries any more because our garden version is so much tastier.

When I am ambitious, I get fresh goat milk from our neighbours (I don't drink milk that often and hate throwing a couple of bucks down the drain because I have forgotten to drink a few cups a day. Yogurt and cheese last longer.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Calm

[Duncan]

I think the most efficient source of growing protein is insects. John the baptist was on to something.

 

only if they dipped it in chocolate, and not this North American waxy mumbo jumbo, get the good chocolatiers-from Europe!

[thatjimguy]

Its intresting to note that the WOW didn't become part of the TR interview process (ie made a commandment) until after Prohibition kicked in in the United states from 1920 to 1933. I guess this is another instance where outside pressures and culture, changed internal policies and procedures and commandments in the church.

 

JS and others often drank good wine and beer. So did Jesus and the Apostles.

 

I think that cultures have always changed religion, I do not think this is a bad thing though. (I used to.)

 

Just when I was starting to investigate the church, I was reading the first 5 books of Moses and thought to myself, "This is just man's way of controlling people". Then as I read more of it, I realized it made sense. If it wasn't for the Jews back in the day, we'd still be throwing away virgins to a nearby volcano.

 

So yeah, religion evolves much like anything else with our intelligence, culture, and even what sins are the most prevalent at the time.

 

There is also a difference with people influencing the church because they have a better understanding of something (like Blacks in the Priesthood) and ready for revelation, as opposed to people trying to force the issue (any group lately it seems)

[Meadowchik]

Our apples are golden delicious, can't eat most store bought apples, peaches or cherries any more because our garden version is so much tastier.

When I am ambitious, I get fresh goat milk from our neighbours (I don't drink milk that often and hate throwing a couple of bucks down the drain because I have forgotten to drink a few cups a day. Yogurt and cheese last longer.

 

It's true, the home-grown seem better.  We have strawberry plants, and, pathetic "gardener" that I am, we have had a few produce and when they do, the strawberries are the best I've ever tasted.

 

We were at our farmer-friend's house the other night while Mr. Farmer was eating a late dinner, all their home-made foods spread out on the kitchen table. Mrs. Farmer said their pork is tastier with a better consistency because they feed their pigs potatoes and other foods, not just cornfeed.  They offered us to split the next beef they have butchered and we'll be taking them up on it.

[MiserereNobis]

 

JS and others often drank good wine and beer. So did Jesus and the Apostles.

 

Jesus' first miracle, as we know, was turning water into wine for a party.  And that wine was so good that people wondered why the good wine hadn't been brought out first (before everyone got tipsy and lost the ability for subtle discernment).

 

Also, Jesus made A LOT of wine.  120-180 gallons.  That sure helped keep the partying going!

[ERayR]

I pulled 3 carrots out of the ground the other day. I transported it by walking to my kitchen, cleaned it with some water and a scrubber, and put it in my fridge....100% organic so no worry for pesticides. It took a few inches of space, and a couple months to grow a very large and fat carrot.I watered it occasionally and loved it continually. In addition this little garden became a haven for local life, birds would fly in and eat the sunflower seed, bugs and polinators flourished in the abundance of flowers, O2 was the main run off. If I were to raise my own rabbits, I would need far more space, far more resources (ok they could probably feed on my lawn of grass and said carrots....but I want the carrots!), and it wouldn't be nearly as in balance as my little carrot was. I would then have to kill it, gut it, Clean off the bits I'm going to use, store it properly (or risk serious disease), and prepare it for human consumption...plus really clean off the bloody surfaces or again risk disease.  I do not see in what way a carrot is somehow harder or less effective to produce when you're comparing apples to apples in actual production (pun intended). Meat is also transported, must be properly stored, cut, and prepared for consumption. The way most meat is prepared in this country means that it's also being transported long distances and often coming from several site sources across the nation. This is in addition to run-off waste and pollution that plants can't make. There's simply more mess.

 

Raising ones own chicken, cows, pig, etc is fanciful and nice, but few of us have the training, space or capacity to do so. IN either sphere the cost is not negligibly different. Meat, by far, has a larger energy expenditure foot-print than just about any plant-based food. And if we honestly raised our own meat we'd probably be more sparing about how often we kill and consume them....because they definitely take more care than a carrot.

 

With luv,

BD

 

And protein is not all that man must live on and you would want to compare actual protein-rich plants. I'm not sure what a cost-per-protein basis has to do with carrot growing. No one grows a carrot for the protein.   

 

IMNSHO it is much better to take your carrots add some potatoes, some onions, a clove of garlic, some bell peppers and a roast and combine them in a slow cooker and when I get home from church sit down to a good meal.  

[ERayR]

Our apples are golden delicious, can't eat most store bought apples, peaches or cherries any more because our garden version is so much tastier.

When I am ambitious, I get fresh goat milk from our neighbours (I don't drink milk that often and hate throwing a couple of bucks down the drain because I have forgotten to drink a few cups a day. Yogurt and cheese last longer.

 

You had me there until you brought in the goat milk.  That stuff is nasty. 

[Calm]

It is funny how stuff tastes differently to different people. Fresh goat milk tastes nutty to me. Delicious...on the other hand I can't eat a fresh tomato (certain cherry tomatoes are okay) by itself or in a salad, though it tastes great in a sandwich. Don't like beans toomuch either, green or dried...though hummus is delicious and I can appreciate many a refried bean dish....pork and beans or baked beans, clear a path to the sink for barf city.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Calm