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  1. Looks like fairmormon is promoting violence against people they don't like: I thought FM was wanting to go back to tactics 20-30 years ago, with deception and angry ad hominem, but by promoting murder....sounds like they want to take it back near 2 centuries. I know most members would agree FM is losing it by supporting this stuff, but even for those defending FM, one must wonder,,,a bridge too far?
  2. Lol. Fun game calm. As I said I'm not interested to verify your claims. As I said I wouldn't doubt if someone out there is saying apostles don't believe. You have me curious though, I wonder if Holland is reading these disreputable sites. Why might he be concerned whether people think he genuine in his belief?
  3. Who has actually said Holland doesn't really believe? The more I think about it the more I wonder what inspired this video. Does he think people don't find him sincere? Has he been questioned? If not this feels a little insecure.
  4. I followed that with "I think most critics would think he believes, but is wrong in his assumptions. " I leave room for the possibility that someone out there thinks he doesn't really believe--"most" leaves that possibility on the table. All I mean to point out is I haven't seen it. Again my impression--critics who say something akin to apostles don't really believe, are stating it in exasperation, as in "I can't really believe this kind of thing"... I certainly may be wrong.
  5. What claim would you like me to support? I thought I suggested in my experience I've seen a few people say something along the lines of "how can they believe this" type of thing and followed by saying its certainly possible someone out there is claiming the apostles don't believe. I meant that as less a challenge and more of a commentary on the purpose of this thread.
  6. Judging by my skimming of this thread, it appears many defenders and members do not like these videos for various reasons. THat's what seems to be going on. I tried to listen to a couple and found them lacking anything interesting, new, or thoughtful. There might be some good info somewhere in one or a few, but I haven't seen it and it appears others haven't either. Why are you so concerned about people objecting to these, so much so you are willing to question other member's intentions? Seems like you're taking this too far.
  7. I pointed out my impression. I don't care to support your claims or concerns. If there are critics who think the apostles don't sincerely believe...fine by me. But again, in my experience, from what I've seen, most who say something about this stuff seem far more exasperated that the leaders actually believe the church and its teachings--in a "how could they believe this" kind of way. Thanks for sharing the video. Its certainly a much nicer approach than the Fairmormon videos people have been talking about.
  8. I think he's passed. As I recall he claimed to know of a high level church authority who did not believe and that this one claimed others were in a similar boat--not really believing but were supported leaders. But, in terms of claiming that the apostles themselves weren't really believers, I think most have simply offered exasperated comments that they couldn't possibly not really know. With that said, I grant there is likely some critic out there who maintains that none of them believe it. From what I did see, those dirty word Fairmormon videos exploited the strawman tactics. This kind of feels similar. No one really thinks Holland doesn't believe it. I think most critics would think he believes, but is wrong in his assumptions.
  9. I think I've seen a person who two claiming something along the lines of "they must know it's all a scam" in exasperation--in a "how can they possibly not know" kind of way. If there is no God, for instance, then it doesn't really matter much if the apostles know its a scam or not, I suppose. As per his question--how can he show Jesus is real and is the LORD? If the story and accounts in the NT about Jesus are true, then Jesus spit on a blind guy and heeled the blindness...He yelped out at a dead man and raised him from the dead. If we are to believe in this Jesus, maybe Holland needs to start doing Jesus-y things. If not, he's merely posturing, it seems to me. He mentioned the pandemic and said God can heal people suffering from the pandemic. Maybe if God did do such a thing, there'd be reason to accept his sincere hopes and teachings.
  10. How could it be absurd if most of Christianity has no loyalty to "his Church" at all? are you suggesting the Mormon Church is not "his Church"? Or are you suggesting most of Christianity can't possibly be loyal to Christ?
  11. Which friends are you accusing of what, exactly? Where'd you get the idea I said it doesn't work?
  12. It feels to me like a return to old styles and tactics, wherein the responses are filled with bravado, strawmen and ad hominem. It may be the Fairmormons decided the old style was best. Even though it sends some people packing, it also gives others a false sense of hope, shaming those who might otherwise explore their thoughts. Maybe there's reason to think these old tactics reprised in a new package work better in the long run than efforts to engage thoughtfully. Interesting play on Fairmormons part. It'll be interesting to see the Church and it's many affiliates as each youthful generation comes along finding more and more reason to exit the Church.
  13. If we remain intent in suggesting abortion is murdering someone then why does the church allow for abortion in some cases? This debate goes nowhere so often because there is little common ground and when someone points out possible common ground people are intent to respond with some sort of inconsistency. And again if it's such a moral issue why did god set abortion as the norm until, with a secular enlightenment move, we humans fought way to limit the abortions? The strong arm moral appeal isn't very reasonable.
  14. You want to direct what I am grateful for after coming after me for expressing something I'm grateful for? I didn't know he put stipulations on what we should be grateful for. I'm still not sure why you are trying to exclude me, but again I mean no offense. It appears you guys are offended, so have fun. I apologize for the hurt I caused.
  15. Whose the "us" you want me excluded from? I figured president nelson wanted everyone to express gratitude. If I'm grateful for something why does it bother you? I'll happily leave if that's what is preferred. I don't mean to be a bother.
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