Free Byu?

[Scott Lloyd]

They don't want to resign because they don't want to lose years worth of education credit. It seems pretty straight forward. FreeBYU has even stated that they would be happy to pay the Non-LDS tuition so it's not about getting the subsidies. It's about completing the education they started without losing years of credit.

BYU did not want them to apostatize from the Church while they were enrolled. There has been disappointment on both sides, but it was they that changed, not the university. It is unjust to expect the university to bear all the consequences of their behavior by waiving the terms of the contract.

[why me]

On this matter of BYU suffering a "loss of good will" by reason of its enrollment standards, what evidence have we, other than the protestations and trouble-making by this noisy little group that the reputation of the university is being sullied because it insists that Latter-day Saints who enroll remain members of the Church in good standing?

 

Who, outside of Mormon circles, even cares?

I think that employers love the standards that are at BYU. It shows discipline and respect. Much in demand by the employer. And this is one reason why recruiters come to the Y. Mormons are known for there high standards and beehive work habits. Those who wish the Y to sacrifice on their honor code or standards have nothing but ill will toward mormons and the church. Employers want workers that can lead by example.

Edited July 23, 2015 by why me

[HappyJackWagon]

I think that employers love the standards that are at BYU. It shows discipline and respect. Much in demand by the employer. And this is one reason why recruiters come to the Y. Mormons are known for there high standards and beehive work habits. Those who wish the Y to sacrifice on their honor code or standards have nothing but ill will toward mormons and the church. Employers want workers that can lead by example.

I have no ill will toward members so your statement is false. In fact I feel the church would be better served by adjusting the honor code to allow religious freedom of BYU students.

[ttribe]

I think that employers love the standards that are at BYU. It shows discipline and respect. Much in demand by the employer. And this is one reason why recruiters come to the Y. Mormons are known for there high standards and beehive work habits. Those who wish the Y to sacrifice on their honor code or standards have nothing but ill will toward mormons and the church. Employers want workers that can lead by example.

 

Nonsense.

[why me]

I have no ill will toward members so your statement is false. In fact I feel the church would be better served by adjusting the honor code to allow religious freedom of BYU students.

Which  would lessen the honor credentials of the institution. The Y is not a school that can allow the religious freedom that you advocate. It is basically for good practicing mormons or for mormons who live by the standards. Non-members also must follow the standards. The Y plays the role of guardian for the students there. No lds parent would want their child influenced by a wayward member at the Y.

[why me]

Nonsense.

 

In 2010, BYU was ranked 11th by job recruiters. That is quite a high ranking for a private and rather small private religious institution. I say that the honor code is working quite well. It builds character through discipline. I see no nonsense in that ranking.

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704554104575435563989873060

 

When a student leaves campus they are free to live the life they wish to live. But while on campus, obey the standards and rules and reap the reward afterward by being recruited by a top company. Also compare the tuition rates of the other top universities. Quite cheap at BYU, even for a non-member. If one leaves the church they should attend one of the other top universities at 45 thousand a year.

Edited July 23, 2015 by why me

[HappyJackWagon]

Which  would lessen the honor credentials of the institution. The Y is not a school that can allow the religious freedom that you advocate. It is basically for good practicing mormons or for mormons who live by the standards. Non-members also must follow the standards. The Y plays the role of guardian for the students there. No lds parent would want their child influenced by a wayward member at the Y.

Everyone deserves to enjoy religious liberty. BYU plays the rule of university or teacher, not parent. Maybe this distinction is at the root of our different POV's.

[Calm]

BYU is not just providing university services though. It is also providing many religious ones.

I suggest that one needs to look at BYU as something more than just a university in order to see what is and isn't appropriate to do.

[sheilauk]

Everyone deserves to enjoy religious liberty. BYU plays the rule of university or teacher, not parent. Maybe this distinction is at the root of our different POV's.

Except people in business, who do not enjoy the religious liberty of choosing who they serve.  Its okay to "force" bakers to enter into a contract contrary to their religious beliefs, but not okay to "force" students to stand by the contract they entered into when they had different religious beliefs because their beliefs have changed and they get to exercise their religious liberty and force BYU to accept them, thus denying BYU its religious liberty?  Is changing ones beliefs any different from cheating?  Presumably, no one has a problem with someone being expelled for cheating?  I presume cheating is contrary to the contract students sign with BYU? Is it different because its assumed that beliefs can't be controlled/chosen and cheating can?  I'm sorry, i just don't get it.  If you enter into a contract, you abide by the contract to its end, or you face the consequences of early termination of said contract.  Should BYU have the belief clause in its contract?  Why not?  Its a private entity and free to make whatever conditions it sees fit - and the student is free to take it up or not.  Yes, you can't be expected to know what might happen down the line and you might change your mind, but any change of mind has consequences.  If you take a job and find you don't like it for whatever reason, you either stick with it or find another job - with whatever loss comes with that in terms of possible promotion etc.  And I don't understand what stops the student from changing to another university - why would they lose university credits if they choose to enrol elsewhere?  I don't know the US system though.  In the UK, its quite easy to change university and take your credits with you.  If you change course - eg from history to art, I can understand you may have to do some more credits to cover the differences, but if you are just changing from one history course to another history course?  When I went to University, things were quite different to now and it was in the UK, as I said, I don't really know the US system.  Ultimately, I don't think that its right for an individual (even a small group of individuals) to expect any private organisation to change to suit them.  And, FYI, when I've been at odds with a private organisation of which I'm a member, I have left - much simpler and less angst for me in the end. 

[sheilauk]

I have no ill will toward members so your statement is false. In fact I feel the church would be better served by adjusting the honor code to allow religious freedom of BYU students

I thought that the Church was not BYU and vice versa?  Who sets this honor code - BYU or the church?

[Storm Rider]

The damage?  Loss of credits.  And time.

 

I've said, repeatedly, that I respect BYU's right to put whatever terms they want on enrollment.  I am just personally opposed to that term.

 

I still think you are trying to hard to be offended.  Every student knows it is a private school that many Mormon young people cannot get into because it is just not big enough to serve everyone; that is a given - demand is high and supply is restricted.  If people don't follow the rules, any rules, all rules, there is a long, long line of individuals that are more than willing to have the opportunity to attend BYU.

 

There are so much reasons why this situation is silly and not very credible.  If you are close to graduation, shut the heck up is the easy answer and graduate and then you have your life free.  If you are an in your 2nd or 3rd year, why do you want to attend BYU?  There are countless alternatives that more closely align with an individuals new life perspective.  Put you money where your mouth is and attend.  There is always some loss when switching schools, but it happens ALL THE TIME.  It is not a significant loss, but you gain so much more - people that align with your new found belief system!  What is the value of that?  On the side of BYU they gain a student that really wants to attend that also adds to the environment of this specific private institution.

 

However, if an individual is so fired up (s)he has to announce their personal choice to leave the Church or to have their name removed, go for it.  Just be big enough to live your convictions.  It may sound harsh, but it is honest. 

[Scott Lloyd]

I still think you are trying to hard to be offended.  Every student knows it is a private school that many Mormon young people cannot get into because it is just not big enough to serve everyone; that is a given - demand is high and supply is restricted.  If people don't follow the rules, any rules, all rules, there is a long, long line of individuals that are more than willing to have the opportunity to attend BYU.

 

There are so much reasons why this situation is silly and not very credible.  If you are close to graduation, shut the heck up is the easy answer and graduate and then you have your life free.  If you are an in your 2nd or 3rd year, why do you want to attend BYU?  There are countless alternatives that more closely align with an individuals new life perspective.  Put you money where your mouth is and attend.  There is always some loss when switching schools, but it happens ALL THE TIME.  It is not a significant loss, but you gain so much more - people that align with your new found belief system!  What is the value of that?  On the side of BYU they gain a student that really wants to attend that also adds to the environment of this specific private institution.

 

However, if an individual is so fired up (s)he has to announce their personal choice to leave the Church or to have their name removed, go for it.  Just be big enough to live your convictions.  It may sound harsh, but it is honest. 

Eminently sensible.

 

Bravo.

[ttribe]

In 2010, BYU was ranked 11th by job recruiters. That is quite a high ranking for a private and rather small private religious institution. I say that the honor code is working quite well. It builds character through discipline. I see no nonsense in that ranking.

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748704554104575435563989873060

 

When a student leaves campus they are free to live the life they wish to live. But while on campus, obey the standards and rules and reap the reward afterward by being recruited by a top company. Also compare the tuition rates of the other top universities. Quite cheap at BYU, even for a non-member. If one leaves the church they should attend one of the other top universities at 45 thousand a year.

 

My "Nonsense" comment was the portion of your quote I bolded.  Try again.

Edited July 23, 2015 by ttribe

[rockpond]

I still think you are trying to hard to be offended. Every student knows it is a private school that many Mormon young people cannot get into because it is just not big enough to serve everyone; that is a given - demand is high and supply is restricted. If people don't follow the rules, any rules, all rules, there is a long, long line of individuals that are more than willing to have the opportunity to attend BYU.

There are so much reasons why this situation is silly and not very credible. If you are close to graduation, shut the heck up is the easy answer and graduate and then you have your life free. If you are an in your 2nd or 3rd year, why do you want to attend BYU? There are countless alternatives that more closely align with an individuals new life perspective. Put you money where your mouth is and attend. There is always some loss when switching schools, but it happens ALL THE TIME. It is not a significant loss, but you gain so much more - people that align with your new found belief system! What is the value of that? On the side of BYU they gain a student that really wants to attend that also adds to the environment of this specific private institution.

However, if an individual is so fired up (s)he has to announce their personal choice to leave the Church or to have their name removed, go for it. Just be big enough to live your convictions. It may sound harsh, but it is honest.

"Shut the heck up" and lie to your Bishop to maintain your endorsement are not options that encourage integrity. (Also part of the honor code.)

I'm not offended. I just don't think the policy fits well with our values. And, according to this thread, as someone who helps financially support the school - my opinion apparently carries a little weight.

[ERayR]

"Shut the heck up" and lie to your Bishop to maintain your endorsement are not options that encourage integrity. (Also part of the honor code.)

I'm not offended. I just don't think the policy fits well with our values. And, according to this thread, as someone who helps financially support the school - my opinion apparently carries a little weight.

 

Same as mine about 1 in 4,500,000 assuming 30% are tithe payers.

[Analytics]

Personally I don't have a horse in this debate and as a private institution, BYU can do whatever it wants.  I do think this policy is unfair to the affected students and reflects poorly on the University and its sponsoring Church.  But on the other hand, that's to be expected.  In any case, I acknowledge the Church's right to kick out whomever it wants.

 

But for those of you defending this policy, how would you feel if the shoe was on the other foot and, say, the University of Notre Dame had a policy that students who converted to Mormonism were subject to being immediately expelled?  Would you celebrate the "freedom of religion" Notre Dame would be exercising with that policy?  Would you think students who converted to Mormonism deserved to be kicked out?  Would you consider this policy reflective of high standards that should be emulated by other private schools? 

Edited July 24, 2015 by Analytics

[Calm]

Not a problem with it for any other university that is funded by a different church's members.

[Storm Rider]

Personally I don't have a horse in this debate and as a private institution, BYU can do whatever it wants.  I do think this policy is unfair to the affected students and reflects poorly on the University and its sponsoring Church.  But on the other hand, that's to be expected.  In any case, I acknowledge the Church's right to kick out whomever it wants.

 

But for those of you defending this policy, how would you feel if the shoe was on the other foot and, say, the University of Notre Dame had a policy that students who converted to Mormonism were subject to being immediately expelled?  Would you celebrate the "freedom of religion" Notre Dame would be exercising with that policy?  Would you think students who converted to Mormonism deserved to be kicked out?  Would you consider this policy reflective of high standards that should be emulated by other private schools? 

 

Why wouldn't I?  Why would anyone have a problem with that position?  You ask the question like you expect each of us to be idiots and incapable of taking any stand.  The reason why this is simple is that we are talking about our faith and our respect for taking a stand.  If you don't believe the stand up for your beliefs, but be honest enough that you willing to live with the consequences. 

 

Those against this position are making it out as if changing schools is very difficult.  I don't see the big deal.  I changed school three times until I finally graduated from the UofU.  Had scholarships at each university, enjoyed my experience, but just was not comfortable at one; our son died at another and we moved to SLC and I returned to school.   No, the U did not accept my religion classes from BYU, but exactly what is the big deal with transferring?  It is not a big deal; you are going to have to give me something more to sense that there is a personal cost of significance by simply standing by your position. 

 

There is a major difference between, "Gosh, bishop, I am having some problems with faith" and "Bishop, the Church is false and I don't want to be a member of it any longer.  Here is my resignation letter and I want it confirmed that I am no longer a member immediately."  If someone does not want to be a member, then great.  We each have our free agency, but why do you guys think life should be without consequences? 

 

More importantly, if you don't believe in the Church, why in the heck do you want to attend BYU where the Church is everywhere?  Wouldn't it be better to be somewhere else that is more in lined with a more open, secular environment? 

 

Finally, the Church has very few universities and colleges.  It does not come close to have anywhere near the number of universities like the Catholic church.  What few options we have available to members needs to be utilized by those who want to attend rather than those who don't. 

 

I really am not seeing the boogey men you guys are making out of this. 

[Raingirl]

 

 

I really am not seeing the boogey men you guys are making out of this. 

 

Aren't boogey men by definition mythical?  So this one created by Free BYU isn't real, either.

 

I worked for ten years at a private Catholic university.  Some of this discussion reminds me of the various kinds of temper tantrums students had there over the years.

 

One that had me really rolling my eyes was the year that an article appeared in the student newspaper regarding the horrible injustice surrounding the birth control policy at the university.  Some students were outraged - outraged, I tell you! - that birth control was not available in the student health center.

 

Somehow, their "rights" were being trampled and the big, evil church/school was wrong, wrong, wrong.  They had a "right" to be provided birth control by the university and how dare the university be so horribly unjust.

 

Oh yeah...and the university should be providing said birth control for free.

 

I could be wrong....nah, not really....but every single student knew they were enrolling in a Catholic university.  They chose to attend the university.  There were policies, rules, contracts in place that they agreed to upon enrollment.  I guess these students were bright enough to gain admittance to the university but not bright enough to understand that a Catholic university would uphold Catholic teachings regarding birth control.

 

Not only did these students think that the policies they agreed to didn't really apply to them, but apparently these poor, deprived, got-my-rights-trampled-on-students could figure out to make their way to the various bars in the area on a regular basis and get falling-down drunk, but couldn't figure out to get to any of the drugstores in the same neighborhood to procure birth control.  Apparently, even if they had, there would have been that pesky issue of actually - oh, the horror! - having to pay for their own birth control.  You know - the birth control for their own bodies for the sex they were choosing to have.

 

When did everything - and I do mean everything - become about me, me, me?  That's what all of these threads about how horrible and mean and unjust the church is are really all about.  It's all about 'me' being the most important thing. The only important thing.  The gospel, the church, BYU - everything and everybody should be just the way I like it, because there is nothing more important than 'me'.

 

It brings to mind the lyrics of a song on an Alex Boye CD that I listened to on the way to work this morning:

 

I'm coming back to the heart of worship

And it's all about You,

It's all about You, Jesus

I'm sorry, Lord, for the thing I've made it

When it's all about You,

It's all about You, Jesus

 

So many people today are instead singing "It's all about me".

[Bernard Gui]

If a student registers under the conditions of meeting with a bishop and getting an ecclesiastical endorsement, then the student knows exactly what is required to maintain enrollment at BYU. Transferring credits to another school may be a bother, but it can and should be done if only for the reason of maintaining the personal integrity of the student and institutional integrity of the school. BYU=LDS Church has the right to set whatever conditions it wishes for admission and continued enrollment without explanation. Don't like those conditions? Go to another school. There are many. Why would you want to be surrounded by people you believe are deluded, misled, hypocritical, or brainwashed in an institution you don't like which is operated by a church you believe is deceptive, controlling, and false? Sounds like torture to me.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Bernard Gui

[HappyJackWagon]

I thought that the Church was not BYU and vice versa?  Who sets this honor code - BYU or the church?

Sorry. I thought this was obvious.

 

The church controls BYU. BYU does not control the church. See the distinction?

[ERayR]

Sorry. I thought this was obvious.

 

The church controls BYU. BYU does not control the church. See the distinction?

 

I thought all those apologist at BYU were controlling Church thought and direction?  Hmmm so confusing, much contradiction.

[sheilauk]

I thought that the Church was not BYU and vice versa?  Who sets this honor code - BYU or the church?

 

 

Sorry. I thought this was obvious.

 

The church controls BYU. BYU does not control the church. See the distinction?

 

Not to me.  Not only do I live in the UK, I've not been a member all that long.  And I have had no need to look into how BYU works.  I really don't know how involved the Brethren are in the organisation/running of BYU and how connected they are.  And your posts confused me.  Who does set the honor code?  (BtW - until i read it on this board, i didn't even know there was an honor code - my university had a set of rules, but I've never heard it called an honor code in the UK.)  

[ttribe]

Not to me.  Not only do I live in the UK, I've not been a member all that long.  And I have had no need to look into how BYU works.  I really don't know how involved the Brethren are in the organisation/running of BYU and how connected they are.  And your posts confused me.  Who does set the honor code?  (BtW - until i read it on this board, i didn't even know there was an honor code - my university had a set of rules, but I've never heard it called an honor code in the UK.)  

 

 

LMGTFY - https://honorcode.byu.edu/

[Tacenda]

Personally I don't have a horse in this debate and as a private institution, BYU can do whatever it wants. I do think this policy is unfair to the affected students and reflects poorly on the University and its sponsoring Church. But on the other hand, that's to be expected. In any case, I acknowledge the Church's right to kick out whomever it wants.

But for those of you defending this policy, how would you feel if the shoe was on the other foot and, say, the University of Notre Dame had a policy that students who converted to Mormonism were subject to being immediately expelled? Would you celebrate the "freedom of religion" Notre Dame would be exercising with that policy? Would you think students who converted to Mormonism deserved to be kicked out? Would you consider this policy reflective of high standards that should be emulated by other private schools?

Excellent point.