Free Byu?

[Scott Lloyd]

Try addressing the issue instead of making personal attacks.

I've been addressing the issue for going on two days now. I get the definite impression some here aren't paying attention.

[HappyJackWagon]

What about accountability and fairness?

Those things definitely play a role but this essentially becomes an argument for "greater mercy" versus "greater justice". If we're meting out justice we'd better be darn sure we're 100% right in our approach. There is always a potential for error but it is so much more gracious, and compassionate to err on the side of mercy.

[Mars]

Oh? Who drew the line?

 

don't be obtuse.

 

obliquely calling him a entitled brat by referring to him being a member of the entitlement generation is that borderline bad behavior so when you get called out on it you can go "what did i do, exactly?"

 

just engage him on his points.  call his arguments entitled.

 

or am i wrong, and this board is ok with calling into question the character and integrity of its posters?

[ERayR]

This presuposes that one can "choose" what they believe. While I would agree that people can choose what they exercise faith in I don't think they can choose to believe something they find unbelievable.

 

Then move on to someplace where they are not distracted by the "unbelievable" and quit mooching off those that do believe.

[Scott Lloyd]

Those things definitely play a role but this essentially becomes an argument for "greater mercy" versus "greater justice". If we're meting out justice we'd better be darn sure we're 100% right in our approach. There is always a potential for error but it is so much more gracious, and compassionate to err on the side of mercy.

In the words of Tonto in that old joke about the Lone Ranger, "Who is we, white man?"

 

For the record, I'm "darn sure" that the BYU policy is 100 percent right. There are no reasonable grounds for one who apostatizes from the Church to expect to remain enrolled at the university.

[KevinG]

Expecting a privilege without adhering to the very clear and agreed upon conditions that predicate it is the very definition of entitlement.  However I can argue with Scott that it is not the entire generation, only a subset of the whiny little ingrates.  

[Scott Lloyd]

don't be obtuse.

 

obliquely calling him a entitled brat by referring to him being a member of the entitlement generation is that borderline bad behavior so when you get called out on it you can go "what did i do, exactly?"

 

just engage him on his points.  call his arguments entitled.

 

or am i wrong, and this board is ok with calling into question the character and integrity of its posters?

I'm calling into question a pervasive mentality I observe today.

[Mars]

no, you're not

 

you're undermining his argument by saying he is entitled by virtue of being a member of the entitlement generation

[Scott Lloyd]

Expecting a privilege without adhering to the very clear and agreed upon conditions that predicate it is the very definition of entitlement.  However I can argue with Scott that it is not the entire generation, only a subset of the whiny little ingrates.  

OK, I'll give you that. I certainly wouldn't want to be classed with the "free love" mentality that prevailed in the sixties, when I grew up.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Mars]

Expecting a privilege without adhering to the very clear and agreed upon conditions that predicate it is the very definition of entitlement.  However I can argue with Scott that it is not the entire generation, only a subset of the whiny little ingrates.  

 

this is calling out the attitude and not the person

[Scott Lloyd]

no, you're not

 

you're undermining his argument by saying he is entitled by virtue of being a member of the entitlement generation

No, I'm saying his comment was characteristic of the entitlement generation.

 

But your contempt is noted. Now let's move on.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[rockpond]

Rock, it is private institution with specific parameters that is financially supported by the Church.  It is not a secular, independent, publically funded institution that would can find and attend in every state of the Union.  If you don't fit within the parameters or if you feel strongly that the teachings of the LDS Church are not acceptable then little Johnny and Mary Sue can march their butt down to my Alma Mater, the U, and attend college.  Many students change universities so it is obviously not an overwhelming burden to do so.  What hindering are you talking about?  What is the damage?  This just sounds like whining to whine.

 

The damage?  Loss of credits.  And time.

 

I've said, repeatedly, that I respect BYU's right to put whatever terms they want on enrollment.  I am just personally opposed to that term.

[rockpond]

In both cases, it respects that the student used his agency to change his faith, but it only respects one set of discernible tenets and practices as suitable for enrollment eligibility.

 

(Bold mine.)  BYU accepts Mormons and non-Mormons.

[KevinG]

My children while faithful (although human) Saints have no expectation that their academic preparation and financial status will afford them a place at BYU.  They work jobs, seek scholarships, and attend a local University.  Their institute has a much smaller population of potential mates.  Their education is not as highly marketable as a BYU degree.  Much of their lack of BYU privilege is due to living far from the inter-mountain west, and belonging to a crazy large Mormon family which means they must work as they study.

 

How are they less entitled to a BYU degree than a once faithful member who changes affiliation with the LDS Church?

 

Fairness is in the eye of the beholder.

[rockpond]

If they have a faith change they would probably be more comfortable somewhere else.  They have used their agency to choose a faith change.  Respecting agency does not require that all options must be kept open.

 

Some want to stay and continue their degree.

[Scott Lloyd]

The damage?  Loss of credits.  And time.

 

 

I don't think Storm Rider is denying that. He's only saying that the disadvantage may not be as onerous as you make it out to be, as students transfer to different schools all the time. Presumably they accept it as a tradeoff to improve their situation or to cope with changing circumstances.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Some want to stay and continue their degree.

A pity that they forfeited that privilege when they apostatized.

 

Fortunately for them, in virtually all cases, they can pursue their degree and finish their coursework elsewhere.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[ERayR]

Perhaps academic subsidies/scholarships should be based on expectations of their academic not on some other requirement like "growing the church."

 

How about a little respect for those providing the subsidies?

 

Giving the "lost investment" defense only makes the church look more like a greedy corporation. Not sure you want to go there.

 

Lastly, BYU is not "asking" the students to go somewhere else. I have no problem with them "asking" but they are forcing through expulsion. The idea that this is NOT a hardship is ludicrous. Obviously there is variability to this but it IS a hardship when credits don't transfer and entire years of education credit are lost. Are you denying that this happens?

 

Consequences from life's decisions sometimes cause hardships, that's why one should give serious deliberation before making them but once made be mature enough to live with the consequences.

 

The church is "forcing" students to act on a set of beliefs the student may no longer hold under threat of expulsion. Hypocritical. Immoral. UnChristlike.

 

The Church is not forcing the student to do anything but to have the integrity to honor their commitments.

[KevinG]

Let's try an analogy...

 

Just because my country hosts guest workers does not mean that I should be allowed to retain all privileges of citizenship if I denounce that citizenship and stop paying taxes.

[KevinG]

In the words of Tonto in that old joke about the Lone Ranger, "Who is we, white man?"

 

Careful HappyJackWagon flounced out of a discussion with me yesterday because I had the nerve to point out the difference between "I" and "we".

[ERayR]

Some want to stay and continue their degree.

 

So all they have to do is honor the commitments they made at enrollment.  I am sure some, maybe even the same some, will waant exaltation without adhering to the requirements too.

[Scott Lloyd]

 

Perhaps academic subsidies/scholarships should be based on expectations of their academic not on some other requirement like "growing the church."

 

How about a little respect for those providing the subsidies?

 

Giving the "lost investment" defense only makes the church look more like a greedy corporation. Not sure you want to go there.

 

Lastly, BYU is not "asking" the students to go somewhere else. I have no problem with them "asking" but they are forcing through expulsion. The idea that this is NOT a hardship is ludicrous. Obviously there is variability to this but it IS a hardship when credits don't transfer and entire years of education credit are lost. Are you denying that this happens?

 

Consequences from life's decisions sometimes cause hardships, that's why one should give serious deliberation before making them but once made be mature enough to live with the consequences.

 

The church is "forcing" students to act on a set of beliefs the student may no longer hold under threat of expulsion. Hypocritical. Immoral. UnChristlike.

 

The Church is not forcing the student to do anything but to have the integrity to honor their commitments.

 

This "unChristlike" label certainly gets thrown around a lot here by people trying to push a particular viewpoint or ideology. I find that at least as offensive as "entitlement generation."

[rockpond]

I don't think Storm Rider is denying that. He's only saying that the disadvantage may not be as onerous as you make it out to be, as students transfer to different schools all the time. Presumably they accept it as tradeoff to improve their situation or to cope with changing circumstances.

 

My degree was extremely narrow and offered at very few schools.  A transfer in the latter half of my program would have set me back considerably.  I'm sure there are others with similar situations.

[KevinG]

This "unChristlike" label certainly gets thrown around a lot here by people trying to push a particular viewpoint or ideology. I find that at least as offensive as "entitlement generation."

 

See my sig line...

 

Scott - the judgement here is that calling someone (or a group of someones) entitled is so much less Christlike then feeling entitled to call someone (or a group of someones) un-Christlike.

Edited July 23, 2015 by KevinG

[KevinG]

My degree was extremely narrow and offered at very few schools.  A transfer in the latter half of my program would have set me back considerably.  I'm sure there are others with similar situations.

 

...and as I pointed out before, in the Wards and Stakes where my classmates and I were in leadership positions, a great deal of mercy was exercised in order to help those who stumbled retain their status and complete their degrees.  

 

I suspect the "free BYU" movement is an attempt by a vocal minority of students whose decisions led to consequences they didn't like, to change the rules in their favor after second and third chances were given.