Free Byu?

[why me]

So it appears that nubee, though he faults Mormon parents for, according to his own nebulous supposition, virtually coerce their children to attend BYU, is not above applying coercion to his own offspring in their choice of schools.

It appears there is some projecting, if not a double standard, going on here.

I hate to waste a post because I am on limited. But I still think that he is 'well intentioned' troll pushing our buttons. But he does get away with it. I have to take my hat off to him. He has not been put on limited or banned. So, I have to admire him. And I am being serious about my admiration for him and his ability to remain on board member status.

[Scott Lloyd]

I hate to waste a post because I am on limited. But I still think that he is 'well intentioned' troll pushing our buttons. But he does get away with it. I have to take my hat off to him. He has not been put on limited or banned. So, I have to admire him. And I am being serious about my admiration for him and his ability to remain on board member status.

Can a troll be "well-intentioned"?

But I don't see him as a troll.

[why me]

Can a troll be "well-intentioned"?

But I don't see him as a troll.

Yes. If he would tone down his posts and not keep using capital letters to make points and if he would learn how to write for discussion, he could be a very good well intentioned troll by getting members to think and reflect about certain issues. But at the moment he is just making people angry, people that had given him the benefit of the doubt earlier.

[rockpond]

Unless it's a policy that rubs you the wrong way. Then you say it's "inappropriate" or "morally indefensible" or whatever.

Wrong. Again. It's morally indefensible because it doesn't respect agency, because it hinders a child's education because their faith changed in a direction that disappointed the institution.

Meanwhile, BYU is happy to reward non-LDS students who choose to end commitments and covenants they had made to their faith as long as they do so to join the LDS church.

[HappyJackWagon]

This is one of those times I just have to scratch my head and wonder if as Christians we are more concerned with kindness, mercy and compassion or judgement and discipline. While there is obviously a place for all of these things I know which one I'm drawn to as an inspirational form of worship.

[CV75]

Wrong. Again. It's morally indefensible because it doesn't respect agency, because it hinders a child's education because their faith changed in a direction that disappointed the institution.

Meanwhile, BYU is happy to reward non-LDS students who choose to end commitments and covenants they had made to their faith as long as they do so to join the LDS church.

In both cases, it respects that the student used his agency to change his faith, but it only respects one set of discernible tenets and practices as suitable for enrollment eligibility.

[CV75]

This is one of those times I just have to scratch my head and wonder

Welcome to college!

[HappyJackWagon]

In both cases, it respects that the student used his agency to change his faith, but it only respects one set of discernible tenets and practices as suitable for enrollment eligibility.

This presuposes that one can "choose" what they believe. While I would agree that people can choose what they exercise faith in I don't think they can choose to believe something they find unbelievable.

[CV75]

This presuposes that one can "choose" what they believe. While I would agree that people can choose what they exercise faith in I don't think they can choose to believe something they find unbelievable.

Belief is not mentioned in my post, and my post is not about belief. But now that you brought it up, the school is not exercsisng any power over anyone becaue of his belief, only making decisions based on his behavior (see Alma 1:17; 30:11). While behavior may be a reflection of belief or choices of faith, the scholl is looking at behavior.

[Meadowchik]

BYU is an example of a religious institution trying to bridge the religious and secular world.

 

So it is going to be tough for those attending and working there, expected to live up to both religious, secular, and academic standards.

[Storm Rider]

Wrong. Again. It's morally indefensible because it doesn't respect agency, because it hinders a child's education because their faith changed in a direction that disappointed the institution.

Meanwhile, BYU is happy to reward non-LDS students who choose to end commitments and covenants they had made to their faith as long as they do so to join the LDS church.

 

Rock, it is a private institution with specific parameters that is financially supported by the Church.  It is not a secular, independent, publically funded institution that anyone can find and attend in every state of the Union.  If you don't fit within the parameters or if you feel strongly that the teachings of the LDS Church are not acceptable then little Johnny and Mary Sue can march their butt down to my Alma Mater, the U, and attend college.  Many students change universities so it is obviously not an overwhelming burden to do so.  What "hindering" are you talking about?  What is the damage?  This just sounds like whining to whine.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Storm Rider

[HappyJackWagon]

Belief is not mentioned in my post, and my post is not about belief. But now that you brought it up, the school is not exercsisng any power over anyone becaue of his belief, only making decisions based on his behavior (see Alma 1:17; 30:11). While behavior may be a reflection of belief or choices of faith, the scholl is looking at behavior.

 

I agree that actions are often a reflection of belief. Students at BYU are allowed the liberty to believe differently as long as they remain silent and keep those beliefs out of the public square. The only way anyone would know of disbelief is if the student exercised his/her religious liberty to discuss it or officially disassociate from the church.

 

If they do not have the liberty to discuss or act on their beliefs then they do not enjoy religious liberty at BYU. BYU may not be enforcing a specific belief but they are enforcing the exercise of a specific belief all while shouting from the rooftops and social media about religious liberty. Don't you find this ironic?

 

Some here are comfortable with the restriction of religious liberty at BYU but I find it distasteful and completely unnecessary.

[KevinG]

Nonsense.  

 

Any student is free to associate with any religious tradition at any time.  They just aren't allowed to have the same tuition benefits as tithe paying active members of the LDS Church.

 

You might as well start a "Free BYU Academics" group that complains about students that lose their ability to complete college because their grade point average dropped below minimum standards.  The poor dears really want their degree but unfortunately BYU is discriminating against them because they are D students.

[ERayR]

I still don't know what BYU has against beards when the old prophets all had them except for Joseph Smith.

 

Its not the beards its all the egg yolk from breakfast that is the problem.

[HappyJackWagon]

Nonsense.  

 

Any student is free to associate with any religious tradition at any time.  They just aren't allowed to have the same tuition benefits as tithe paying active members of the LDS Church.

 

You might as well start a "Free BYU Academics" group that complains about students that lose their ability to complete college because their grade point average dropped below minimum standards.  The poor dears really want their degree but unfortunately BYU is discriminating against them because they are D students.

Kevin, that is simply not true. I'd agree with you if it were only about tuition cost. I'd support charging non-LDS tuition to people who change affiliation from LDS to non-LDS. That's not an option. They are expelled.

 

Saying, "you're free to associate with any religion you choose and have liberty to express your beliefs but we will expell you if you do," is not religious liberty. The church/BYU is setting a penalty for those who don't agree with their point of view. This is what the church rails against with all of it's religious liberty talk. They want to be able to act and speak on their beliefs without negative repercussions yet won't allow the same privilege to students at BYU.

 

This is absolutely hypocritical.

[Scott Lloyd]

I've been thinking about this nonsense that the BYU policy on enrollment is "morally indefensible."

In a way it can be likened to the awarding of scholarships. (Stay with me here.)

Scholarships are often awarded with the hope and expectation that the student so honored will achieve success with regard to academics and career but also that he or she will go on to function in certain ways that benefit not only society but the entity awarding the scholarship.

Not every student who wants one can receive a BYU education. The demand is too great. So there must be selections made.

Those selections are not based strictly on ability to pay. In fact, as has been pointed out here, BYU tuition is relatively inexpensive for the quality of education received. Those few non-member students who enroll there pay double what Church members do, but I understand even that is not enough to cover the full cost of enrollment. So, in effect, each and every student who enrolls at BYU automatically receives a scholarship provided by the tithe payers of the Church.

In consideration of that subsidy, the university and the Church have certain expectations of one who is privileged to be admitted to the university. Among those is that he or she will go on to contribute to the stability, prosperity, success and growth of the Church.

Each Church member who accepts this privilege and then apostatizes from the Church while enrolled at BYU amounts to a lost investment of resources from the standpoint of the Church and university, whose reasonable course of action at that point is to ask the student to enroll elsewhere so that the enrollment slot can be freed up and offered to a student who is apt to keep all of the commitments that students are asked to agree to upon admission.

And I agree with Storm Rider that "many students change universities, so it is obviously not an overwhelming burden to do so" and it is not unreasonable to have them do so in view of the situation they have placed themselves and the university in.

So is it a "morally indefensible" policy? Not in the least in view of the purpose for which the Church maintains a university and offers an education to young people who are among the best and the brightest among the Church membership.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Kevin, that is simply not true. I'd agree with you if it were only about tuition cost. I'd support charging non-LDS tuition to people who change affiliation from LDS to non-LDS. That's not an option. They are expelled.

 

Saying, "you're free to associate with any religion you choose and have liberty to express your beliefs but we will expell you if you do," is not religious liberty. The church/BYU is setting a penalty for those who don't agree with their point of view. This is what the church rails against with all of it's religious liberty talk. They want to be able to act and speak on their beliefs without negative repercussions yet won't allow the same privilege to students at BYU.

 

This is absolutely hypocritical.

Spoken like a true member of the entitlement generation.

[ERayR]

Wrong. Again. It's morally indefensible because it doesn't respect agency, because it hinders a child's education because their faith changed in a direction that disappointed the institution.

Meanwhile, BYU is happy to reward non-LDS students who choose to end commitments and covenants they had made to their faith as long as they do so to join the LDS church.

 

If they have a faith change they would probably be more comfortable somewhere else.  They have used their agency to choose a faith change.  Respecting agency does not require that all options must be kept open.

[KevinG]

Don't confuse disliking a consequence with lacking freedom of choice.  The alternative is to force BYU to graduate students who started under clear expectations of religious affiliation and behavior codes, and chose to sever those ties while a student.

 

They lose no credits, and can take them to any other university.  I'm guessing the number of BYU credits not accepted by other universities is very, very small, and no more of an inconvenience than a student transferring to any other university from any other university because of things like academic eligibility, the desire for a starting position on another sports team, or the desire to live nearer to home.

 

The fact that BYU has accommodated people of other religions who are willing to abide by their Honor Code does not mean they are compelled to accommodate those who have openly rejected the authority or doctrines of the sponsoring organization, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Edited July 23, 2015 by KevinG

[HappyJackWagon]

 

In consideration of that subsidy, the university and the Church have certain expectations of one who is privileged to be admitted to the  university. Among those is that he or she will go on to contribute to the stability, prosperity, success and growth of the Church.

 

Each Church member who accepts this privilege and then apostatizes from the Church while enrolled at BYU amounts to a lost investment of resources from the standpoint of the Church and university, whose reasonable course of action at that point is to ask the student to enroll elsewhere so that the enrollment slot can be freed up and offered to a student who is apt to keep all of the commandments that students are asked to agree to upon admission.

Perhaps academic subsidies/scholarships should be based on expectations of their academic not on some other requirement like "growing the church."

 

Giving the "lost investment" defense only makes the church look more like a greedy corporation. Not sure you want to go there.

 

Lastly, BYU is not "asking" the students to go somewhere else. I have no problem with them "asking" but they are forcing through expulsion. The idea that this is NOT a hardship is ludicrous. Obviously there is variability to this but it IS a hardship when credits don't transfer and entire years of education credit are lost. Are you denying that this happens?

 

The church is "forcing" students to act on a set of beliefs the student may no longer hold under threat of expulsion. Hypocritical. Immoral. UnChristlike.

[Mars]

Spoken like a true member of the entitlement generation.

 

i think this crosses a line.

[HappyJackWagon]

If they have a faith change they would probably be more comfortable somewhere else.  They have used their agency to choose a faith change.  Respecting agency does not require that all options must be kept open.

Let them choose if they would be more comfortable somewhere else instead of deciding for them.

[ERayR]

This is one of those times I just have to scratch my head and wonder if as Christians we are more concerned with kindness, mercy and compassion or judgement and discipline. While there is obviously a place for all of these things I know which one I'm drawn to as an inspirational form of worship.

 

What about accountability and fairness?

[HappyJackWagon]

Spoken like a true member of the entitlement generation.

Try addressing the issue instead of making personal attacks.

[Scott Lloyd]

i think this crosses a line.

Oh? Who drew the line?