Free Byu?

[Boanerges]

As the father of children who must meet rigid requirements, academic as well as ecclesiastical, if they hope to attend BYU, I for one would strenuously object to enrollment slots being occupied by those who had apostatized or who otherwise had broken their covenants or failed to live up to their conditions for admission.

Do you object to non-members attending? While they do agree to live the honor code they are not in reality held to the same standard as members, particularly prior to attending (understanding, of course, that they have not made covenants). They are taking up slots that active tithe paying members who have served missions and otherwise meet the high standards of BYU (academic, covenants, etc.) could have.

 

I don't object to non-members attending (and yes, I recognize they pay higher tuition because they don't pay tithing), just as I don't object to non-Catholics attending Notre Dame or non-Baptists (sounds funny, doesn't it?) attending Baylor. If a Catholic at Notre Dame converts to Protetstantism (or Mormonism) or a Baptist at Baylor converts to another Protestant faith or Catholicism they are not kicked out and denied transfer of credits or graduation - but they are still required to attend weekly religious services and uphold the other standards of those fine universities. I believe the same to be true for other Catholic and Christian universites (such as SMU). I know this has sort of been hashed out already here, but why should a student who joins another faith (or no faith at all) at BYU not be allowed to live the same standards as a non-member (and likewise pay higher tuition)?

[Scott Lloyd]

Do you object to non-members attending? While they do agree to live the honor code they are not in reality held to the same standard as members, particularly prior to attending (understanding, of course, that they have not made covenants). They are taking up slots that active tithe paying members who have served missions and otherwise meet the high standards of BYU (academic, covenants, etc.) could have.

 

I don't object to non-members attending (and yes, I recognize they pay higher tuition because they don't pay tithing), just as I don't object to non-Catholics attending Notre Dame or non-Baptists (sounds funny, doesn't it?) attending Baylor. If a Catholic at Notre Dame converts to Protetstantism (or Mormonism) or a Baptist at Baylor converts to another Protestant faith or Catholicism they are not kicked out and denied transfer of credits or graduation - but they are still required to attend weekly religious services and uphold the other standards of those fine universities. I believe the same to be true for other Catholic and Christian universites (such as SMU). I know this has sort of been hashed out already here, but why should a student who joins another faith (or no faith at all) at BYU not be allowed to live the same standards as a non-member (and likewise pay higher tuition)?

The difference is that in apostatizing from the Church of Jesus Christ (unlike people who never joined the Church in the first place) they have rejected sacred covenants made at baptism. That's not OK with me, and I don't believe such individuals ought to be occupying slots that could go to faithful Latter-day Saints.

 

And may I say I'm tired of seeing threads show up here only to realize they were begun a year or more ago and the issues have already been hashed out.

 

Thread necromancy? Is that what they call it?

Edited May 4, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[HappyJackWagon]

 

The difference is that in apostatizing from the Church of Jesus Christ (and unlike people who never joined the Church in the first place) they have rejected sacred covenants made at baptism. That's not OK with me, and I don't believe such individuals ought to be occupying slots that could go to faithful Latter-day Saints.

 

And may I say I'm tired of seeing threads show up here only to realize they were begun a year or more ago and the issues have already been hashed out.

 

Thread necromancy? Is that what they call it?

Which baptismal covenants are broken if a Mormon converts to Catholicism or becomes a Methodist or Baptist and continues to be a follower of Christ?

[Scott Lloyd]

 

Which baptismal covenants are broken if a Mormon converts to Catholicism or becomes a Methodist or Baptist and continues to be a follower of Christ?

Well, we would have to get into the meaning of apostasy, which one Church manual defines as "either rejection of the authority of the Church [of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints] and the Lord’s legitimate representatives, or rejection of the doctrines and ordinances accepted by the Church as binding upon its members, or both."

 

When one is baptized, one implicitly covenants to accept those things which would later be rejected if that person apostatizes.

 

If one entered a Baptist college as a member of that faith and, while enrolled there, apostatized from the faith, I would have no criticism if the school expelled him, particularly if he had agreed to remain a member in good standing while there. I would feel this way even if he had forsaken his church membership to join the Church of Jesus Christ.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

Well, we would have to get into the meaning of apostasy, which one Church manual defines as "either rejection of the authority of the Church [of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints] and the Lord’s legitimate representatives, or rejection of the doctrines and ordinances accepted by the Church as binding upon its members, or both."

 

When one is baptized, one implicitly covenants to accept those things which would later be rejected if that person apostatizes.

Do you think an 8 year old could understand that? 

 

Here is from lds.org:

At Baptism I Covenant with the Lord to:

1. Come into the fold of God (become a member of the Church of Jesus Christ).

2. Be called his son or daughter (take upon me the name of Christ).

3. Bear others’ burdens, that they may be light; mourn with those that mourn; and comfort those in need of comfort (help others).

4. Stand as a witness of God at all times and in all things and in all places (testify of Christ and set a good example at all times).

5. Serve God and keep his commandments. 

I see nothing there about not being able to ask questions, have doubts, etc.  And, all of those covenants could be kept with God whether or not one remained an active member of the church or not.

[Scott Lloyd]

Do you think an 8 year old could understand that? 

 

I understood it very well when I was 8, so yes, I believe a typical 8-year-old is perfectly capable of grasping that.

 

And incidentally, I have a clear memory of my boyhood from age 8 and up; less so prior to that time.

 

 

Here is from lds.org:

I see nothing there about not being able to ask questions, have doubts, etc. 

As a whole and in context, those questions imply an acceptance of God's authorized servants and of the doctrines that are binding upon Latter-day Saints. That's what "fold of God" means. God's fold is His covenant people.

 

 

And, all of those covenants could be kept with God whether or not one remained an active member of the church or not.

 

I disagree that those covenants can be fully kept without remaining active in the Church. Those who think activity in the Church is not necessary to their fulfillment probably either don't understand them or they are deceiving themselves.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Buckeye]

It does seem a bit hypocritical to allow non members to attend even though their doctrinal beliefs reject lds claims to authority, but to kick out former lds students who abide by all of the outward honor code requirements and whose only fault is rejecting the same lds claims to authority which other students are allowed to reject. Actually, it's much more than a bit of hypocrisy.

[Sleeper Cell]

 

 

Don't care.

Treat people fairly. It's not a difficult concept.

Its not fair to require students to live up to all of their conditions of enrollment -- conditions which they voluntarily accepted?  

[Scott Lloyd]

It does seem a bit hypocritical to allow non members to attend even though their doctrinal beliefs reject lds claims to authority, but to kick out former lds students who abide by all of the outward honor code requirements and whose only fault is rejecting the same lds claims to authority which other students are allowed to reject. Actually, it's much more than a bit of hypocrisy.

It's not hypocritical in the least.

 

It's the difference between expelling covenant breakers and providing a service to friends who have not accepted the covenant in the first place.

 

Again, I would be very, very upset to learn that BYU had changed its policy and started enrolling apostates.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

I disagree that those covenants can be fully kept without remaining active in the Church. Those who think activity in the Church is not necessary to their fulfillment probably either don't understand them or they are deceiving themselves.

Which one?  If you want to start putting qualifiers on each baptismal covenant (and your own interpretation), then that's up to you (just as some over on the thread discussing temple recommend questions are doing there), but those are your qualifiers.  I get that these are what your baptismal covenants mean to you and I respect that.  But I see nothing in those covenants listed above that are automatically broken if one starts to doubt or have questions (or is not as active as they once were).

Edited May 4, 2015 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

Which one?

Depends on the individual, of course.

 

 If you want to start putting qualifiers on each baptismal covenant (and your own interpretation), then that's up to you (just as some over on the thread discussing temple recommend questions are doing there), but those are your qualifiers.  I get that these are what your baptismal covenants mean to you and I respect that.  But I see nothing in those covenants listed above that are automatically broken if one starts to doubt or have questions (or is not as active as they once were).

 

I regard my understanding as doctrinally accurate.

[Sleeper Cell]

It does seem a bit hypocritical to allow non members to attend even though their doctrinal beliefs reject lds claims to authority, but to kick out former lds students who abide by all of the outward honor code requirements and whose only fault is rejecting the same lds claims to authority which other students are allowed to reject. Actually, it's much more than a bit of hypocrisy.

Yeah.  I have always struggled with that “For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required” thing.  

[Boanerges]

It's not hypocritical in the least.

 

It's the difference between expelling covenant breakers and providing a service to friends who have not accepted the covenant in the first place.

 

Again, I would be very, very upset to learn that BYU had changed its policy and started enrolling apostates.

How do you know they don't currently enroll any apostates? As I recall, looking at my own children's applications, you aren't asked if you have ever been a member. You are asked if you are a member, or if not what religion you do belong to. It is very possible that someone could have apostatized, belong to another faith, and be enrolled at BYU. Were he or she already an member and then apostatized, the story would be different.

 

While I agree with the statement about hypocrisy above, I also believe it to be very unChristlike. Christ accepted all who came unto him, all have the opportunity to "repent" (although I'm not sure repentance is needed in this case). Now don't get me wrong - if someone apostatized and became anti I think it would be perfectly acceptable to expel that individual (although I believe transcripts for transfer should be available - I don't get that part at all). For someone who still believes in Christ (or maybe Allah), expulsion is unwarranted IMO. I agree with your statement about other religious universities being able to expel students for leaving the faith if they wish - but they generally don't and even if they do they don't withhold transcripts.

[ALarson]

Depends on the individual, of course.

That's ok if you don't want to answer or just choose to remain vague.  We just disagree.

[Scott Lloyd]

That's ok if you don't want to answer or just choose to remain vague.  We just disagree.

Who's being vague?

 

You asked, "Which one?" in reference to my prior response about people who think church activity is not required to keep covenants either don't understand the covenants or are deceiving themselves.

 

What's unclear about "It depends on the individual"?

[Scott Lloyd]

How do you know they don't currently enroll any apostates?

Well, I'd be surprised if they knowingly did.

 

While I agree with the statement about hypocrisy above, I also believe it to be very unChristlike.

 

While Christ invites all to come unto Him, He requires that once they make covenants they keep them.

[ALarson]

Is it in the agreement that the student signs (between them and BYU), that the university can withhold their transcripts or "strip" them of their credits earned prior to the infraction?

 

(I imagine the answer to this question is somewhere in this thread, but I'm not anxious to read the entire 14 pages.)

[Sleeper Cell]

While I agree with the statement about hypocrisy above, I also believe it to be very unChristlike. Christ accepted all who came unto him, all have the opportunity to "repent" (although I'm not sure repentance is needed in this case).

 

As far as I know, no university accepts all who “come unto them.”  

 

 Now don't get me wrong - if someone apostatized and became anti I think it would be perfectly acceptable to expel that individual (although I believe transcripts for transfer should be available - I don't get that part at all). For someone who still believes in Christ (or maybe Allah), expulsion is unwarranted IMO. I agree with your statement about other religious universities being able to expel students for leaving the faith if they wish - but they generally don't and even if they do they don't withhold transcripts. 

IF BYU actually does withhold transcripts of apostates, I strongly agree with you.  If memory serves, BYU doesn't, but the dismissed student faces the same hassles as any other transfer student -- his new school may not accept all of BYU’s courses and may have additional requirements for the same degree.  The result: a transfer student (from any school) may require more time (and money) to graduate.  Hardly a minor inconvenience, but generally not insurmountable.  

 

But it would be wrong for BYU to withhold transcripts, with the possible exception for reasons like unpaid fees or convincing evidence of cheating to such an extent to make the transcript largely fraudulent.  Frankly, if the student has paid all his fees, I would question whether it would be legal to withhold his transcript for apostasy or any other non academic transgression, no matter how egregious.  

Edited May 4, 2015 by Sleeper Cell

[ALarson]

Did Chad Hardy ever get his degree from BYU?

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/27282440/ns/us_news-faith/t/man-byu-odds-over-shirtless-mormons/#.VUf9f_lViko

[omni]

Well, I'd be surprised if they knowingly did.

While Christ invites all to come unto Him, He requires that once they make covenants they keep them.

.

What about those of other faiths who have made covenants with God, but then break those covenants and join the church awhile attending BYU?

[Tacenda]

As far as I know, no university accepts all who “come unto them.”  

 

IF BYU actually does withhold transcripts of apostates, I strongly agree with you.  If memory serves, BYU doesn't, but the dismissed student faces the same hassles as any other transfer student -- his new school may not accept all of BYU’s courses and may have additional requirements for the same degree.  The result: a transfer student (from any school) may require more time (and money) to graduate.  Hardly a minor inconvenience, but generally not insurmountable.  

 

But it would be wrong for BYU to withhold transcripts, with the possible exception for reasons like unpaid fees or convincing evidence of cheating to such an extent to make the transcript largely fraudulent.  Frankly, if the student has paid all his fees, I would question whether it would be legal to withhold his transcript for apostasy or any other non academic transgression, no matter how egregious.

I guess you've skipped over my posts. Maybe you've put me on ignore. Or expect someone other than me to post the fact BYU does freeze transcripts or strip them away. In my post a young woman had this happen at LDS Business College when she came out to her bishop that she didn't believe. Maybe they could have had her finish online or something. But nope,all of it down the tubes.

Read the stories, before 1993 they would simply up tuition fees to be at non member status, which I believe is double. So someone that does come out, is truly being authentic at a high price. There needs to be something more humane, there are a lot of people that suffer mental abuse by putting on a facade, I'm a totally messed up human being having gone through it. I fault the church. Maybe that's part of my passion, that students aren't living in secret.

[Scott Lloyd]

.

What about those of other faiths who have made covenants with God, but then break those covenants and join the church awhile attending BYU?

I don't know how the concept of covenants applies in other faiths.

 

But my main beef is what I have expressed earlier. BYU ought to privilege Church members who, once they have embraced the faith, remain faithful to it. And, in my mind, that means refusing to allow apostates to matriculate and thereby use up scarce enrollment slots that could be occupied by students who are faithful Church members. I repeat, as a parent of students desiring enrollment at BYU, I would be incensed if the policy were to change.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[HappyJackWagon]

 

Its not fair to require students to live up to all of their conditions of enrollment -- conditions which they voluntarily accepted?

 

Being a member of the church is not a condition of enrollment, nor is it a requirement of the honor code. Students commit to live the honor code. They do not make a religious covenant with BYU like Scott seems to think. BYU is not the church. Frankly it is a breach of ecclesiastical authority and confidentiality for a Bishop/Stake President to report on a student's worthiness or level of testimony to BYU without the students permission.

1 simple solution to this problem is to simply allow a student to transfer their credits but BYU seems to take a more punitive approach.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

Do you think an 8 year old could understand that? 

 

Here is from lds.org:

I see nothing there about not being able to ask questions, have doubts, etc.  And, all of those covenants could be kept with God whether or not one remained an active member of the church or not.

 

Exactly my thoughts. When we look at the covenants we make at baptism, we can see that they are covenants regarding our acceptance of Christ and treatment of our brothers and sisters. Those covenants can all be kept in different Christian denominations. Now covenants which Scott thinks are implied, yet not stated, may be a bigger problem for a BYU student, primarily because it's Scott's gospel which is neither authoritative or well published. Sorry Scott.

[stemelbow]

Being a member of the church is not a condition of enrollment, nor is it a requirement of the honor code. Students commit to live the honor code. They do not make a religious covenant with BYU like Scott seems to think. BYU is not the church. Frankly it is a breach of ecclesiastical authority and confidentiality for a Bishop/Stake President to report on a student's worthiness or level of testimony to BYU without the students permission.

1 simple solution to this problem is to simply allow a student to transfer their credits but BYU seems to take a more punitive approach.

BYU's approach makes no sense to me. I find the behavior here by the University objectionable. Please let kids finish school, untouched. They are our future. To try and hurt them for doing what they feel is best, when it is not unlawful, is ridiculous. They go in liking the religion...they leave not liking it. Sheesh, show some integrity, please.