Free Byu?

[mormonnewb]

And you are influencing the exercise of his agency by encouraging or discouraging his options about being a Mormon, using what could be said about BYU, and of course you can characterize BYU to him as you do here. But any university operates in loco parentis, and parents are typically inclined to encourage their children to enroll in a school that would influence his use of agency as they would.

 

I think it interesting that the original motto for Harvard (at the time a college) was “Veritas Christo et Ecclesiae (Truth for Christ and the Church)” but over the next 200 years it became more secularized. It is just now implementing an honor code next fall, complete with an “affirmation of integrity,” which corresponds to BYU’s ecclesiastical endorsement [emphasis added]. So if stacking up to a secular comparison is the standard du jour, then yes, BYU is right in having an honor code and ecclesiastical endorsement (a validated affirmation) for the sake of its community.

 

You're comparing Harvard's proposed "honor code" with Brigham Young's?  Really?  Here is the ENTIRE extent of the Harvard Honor Code:

 

"Members of the Harvard College community commit themselves to producing academic work with integrity—that is, work that adheres to the scholarly and intellectual standards of accurate attribution of sources, appropriate collection and use of data, and transparent acknowledgement of the contribution of others to our ideas, discoveries, interpretations, and conclusions. Cheating on exams or problems sets, plagiarizing or misrepresenting the idea or language of someone else as one’s own, falsifying data, or any other instance of academic dishonesty violates the standards of our community, as well as the standards of the wider world of learning and affairs."

 

That's all, folks!  No promises to abide by the WoW, the Law of Chastity, to watch only Disney movies, etc.

 

As for your ecclesiastic endorsement, Harvard's HC contains no such thing.  The Affirmation of Integrity is simply a signed statement that students will submit with their assignments, tests, etc.  It will read as follows:

 

"I attest to the honesty of my academic work and affirm that it conforms to the standards of the Harvard College Honor Code."

 

So tell me, at which point, will Harvard students promise not to switch their religious affiliation?  Or even better, which religious leader will have to sign off on a student's "worthiness" to continue at Harvard?  The answer is NONE.

 

The Harvard HC is limited to one thing and one thing only -- no cheating on tests and copying your roommate's homework.  It doesn't seek to impose a personal code of conduct with regards to diet, grooming, sexuality or the thousand other things that the Brigham Young administration feels that it must dictate to the "children" in their care (to borrow from your concept of "in loco parentis").

 

And just for the record, most universities don't see themselves acting in the role of parents to minor children because they work on the assumption that their students are actually ADULTS.  That's actually one of the big differences between high school and college (or at least, it should be).

 

For example, my college didn't have set meal times like in high school to make sure that we were all getting proper nutrition throughout the day.  Nor did my college assign us an hour of PE like in high school to make sure that we moved our little bodies around to get out all "the wiggles."  And it certainly didn't set a curfew so that we could be tucked into bed each night and read Goodnight Moon.  Perhaps, it's because the story wasn't political correct enough for us leftists or it MIGHT have been because we were ADULTS who were given the FREEDOM to make our own choices with regards to our whereabouts (and to deal with the natural, but not university-imposed, consequences of those decisions).

 

So while you might like to think that BY is just another school with an honor code (and that all of the "cool schools" are doing it), that simply isn't the case.  BY's HC doesn't put in the class of the Harvards and MITs of the world, but rather schools like Liberty, Regents and Bob Jones University.  And to be clear, I'm not making a value judgment here.  Depending upon the student (and the objectives of their education/training), one of those schools may be a much better fit than, say, Yale or Columbia or top-flight state school.  

Edited November 24, 2014 by mormonnewb

[thesometimesaint]

I certainly want him to have the AGENCY to choose whether he wants to be a Mormon.

Likewise, several of the comments from earlier in this thread made clear that BYU is more of an academy than a university. And by academy, I mean it in the sense of West Point, the Naval Academy and Air Force Academy. These prestigious institutions don't claim to be universities because their aim is not to educate students in the classical sense. Their aim is to TRAIN young people to fulfill a certain role as soldiers, sailors, pilots, etc. I think the same can be said of BYU. It's aim is to produce priesthood holders and stay-at-home moms. And while these are certainly are worthy goals, I'm of the opinion that a person can be these things AND still receive an "education" in the classical sense, in which they will be ENCOURAGED to explore different ways of viewing the world and not just to "follow the prophet/provost/professor." Now, if my boy comes to their own conclusion that our leaders are correct, then that is great, but I want the decision not to be influenced by whether he will have to restart his schooling if he decides in the alternative.

 

More hyperbole. EVERY university I've attended has some form of honor code, and most professions have a stricter one too. To claim that BYU is somehow unique in this is unfounded and bizarre. BYU is a university with multiple goals. Only one of which is further the goals of the Church. I'll stack the quality of my education there at the undergrad level against any university you care to name. Moreover as I told you before; at age 18 your children are legally adults and can make up their own minds and do what they want. If you've waited until their off to university to instill the LDS region in them you are many days late and more than a few dollars short.

[thesometimesaint]

You're comparing Harvard's proposed "honor code" with Brigham Young's?  Really?  Here is the ENTIRE extent of the Harvard Honor Code:

 

"Members of the Harvard College community commit themselves to producing academic work with integrity—that is, work that adheres to the scholarly and intellectual standards of accurate attribution of sources, appropriate collection and use of data, and transparent acknowledgement of the contribution of others to our ideas, discoveries, interpretations, and conclusions. Cheating on exams or problems sets, plagiarizing or misrepresenting the idea or language of someone else as one’s own, falsifying data, or any other instance of academic dishonesty violates the standards of our community, as well as the standards of the wider world of learning and affairs."

 

That's all, folks!  No promises to abide by the WoW, the Law of Chastity, to watch only Disney movies, etc.

 

As for your ecclesiastic endorsement, Harvard's HC contains no such thing.  The Affirmation of Integrity is simply a signed statement that students will submit with their assignments, tests, etc.  It will read as follows:

 

"I attest to the honesty of my academic work and affirm that it conforms to the standards of the Harvard College Honor Code."

 

So tell me, at which point, will Harvard students promise not to switch their religious affiliation?  Or even better, which religious leader will have to sign off on a student's "worthiness" to continue at Harvard?  The answer is NONE.

 

The Harvard HC is limited to one thing and one thing only -- no cheating on tests and copying your roommate's homework.  It doesn't seek to impose a personal code of conduct with regards to diet, grooming, sexuality or the thousand other things that the Brigham Young administration feels that it must dictate to the "children" in their care (to borrow from your concept of "in loco parentis").

 

And just for the record, most universities don't see themselves acting in the role of parents to minor children because they work on the assumption that their students are actually ADULTS.  That's actually one of the big differences between high school and college (or at least, it should be).

 

For example, my college didn't have set meal times like in high school to make sure that we were all getting proper nutrition throughout the day.  Nor did my college assign us an hour of PE like in high school to make sure that we moved our little bodies around to get out all "the wiggles."  And it certainly didn't set a curfew so that we could be tucked into bed each night and read Goodnight Moon.  Perhaps, it's because the story wasn't political correct enough for us leftists or it MIGHT have been because we were ADULTS who were given the FREEDOM to make our own choices with regards to our whereabouts (and to deal with the natural, but not university-imposed, consequences of those decisions).

 

So while you might like to think that BY is just another school with an honor code (and that all of the "cool schools" are doing it), that simply isn't the case.  BY's HC doesn't put in the class of the Harvards and MITs of the world, but rather schools like Liberty, Regents and Bob Jones University.  And to be clear, I'm not making a value judgment here.  Depending upon the student (and the objectives of their education/training), one of those schools may be a much better fit than, say, Yale or Columbia or top-flight state school.  

 

You can get ANYTHING you want at BYU, and many things you don't want.

[CV75]

You're comparing Harvard's proposed "honor code" with Brigham Young's?

Yes, because both have an honor code, a means to affirm it, and practice in locum parentis as it is expressed today. Your "analysis" is so poorly informed that I can only advise you to back to the article on your own time.

 

This article on the other hand http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/philip_lee/files/vol8lee.pdf shows how in locum parentis is alive and well in many non-traditional ways. Universities still recognize at the very least a “duty of care” and remain involved in student life. The honor codes have everything to do with this by delineating a standard of behavior reflecting a standard of character consistent with its mission and community. See: http://harvardmagazine.com/2014/05/bringing-honor-to-harvard

 

If a parent has qualms about BYU’s honor code or “duty of care”, he shouldn't shift responsibility from his personal hang-ups to the school by misrepresenting its qualifications as an unauthentic university. BYU is as bona fide a university as any other:

http://www.4icu.org/reviews/6732.htm

http://news.byu.edu/archive13-sep-usnews2014.aspx

http://registrar.byu.edu/catalog/2012-2013ucat/AboutBYU/Accreditation.php

 

I think when guiding our adult children in the selection of schools, it is important to model intellectual honesty. Sometimes the high road to to encourage them to fact check everything we tell them.

[The Nehor]

And just for the record, most universities don't see themselves acting in the role of parents to minor children because they work on the assumption that their students are actually ADULTS. That's actually one of the big differences between high school and college.

For example, my college didn't have set meal times like in high school to make sure that we were all getting proper nutrition throughout the day. Nor did my college assign us an hour of PE like in high school to make sure that we moved our little bodies around to get out all "the wiggles." And it certainly didn't set a curfew so that we could be tucked into bed each night and read Goodnight Moon. Perhaps, it's because the story wasn't political correct enough for us leftists or it MIGHT have been because we were ADULTS who were given the FREEDOM to make our own choices with regards to our whereabouts (and to deal with the natural, but not university-imposed, consequences of those decisions).

You just summed up why I did not go to BYU. College students being able to act like adults is probably optimistic but it has to happen some time I guess. Edited November 24, 2014 by The Nehor

[ERayR]

You just summed up why I did not go to BYU. College students being able to act like adults is probably optimistic but it has to happen some time I guess.

 

You took the honest and honorable course of going elsewhere and not making contract then blaming the school for your inability to live up to your obligations.

[mormonnewb]

Yes, because both have an honor code, a means to affirm it, and practice in locum parentis as it is expressed today. Your "analysis" is so poorly informed that I can only advise you to back to the article on your own time.

 

This article on the other hand http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/philip_lee/files/vol8lee.pdf shows how in locum parentis is alive and well in many non-traditional ways. Universities still recognize at the very least a “duty of care” and remain involved in student life. The honor codes have everything to do with this by delineating a standard of behavior reflecting a standard of character consistent with its mission and community. See: http://harvardmagazine.com/2014/05/bringing-honor-to-harvard

 

If a parent has qualms about BYU’s honor code or “duty of care”, he shouldn't shift responsibility from his personal hang-ups to the school by misrepresenting its qualifications as an unauthentic university. BYU is as bona fide a university as any other:

http://www.4icu.org/reviews/6732.htm

http://news.byu.edu/archive13-sep-usnews2014.aspx

http://registrar.byu.edu/catalog/2012-2013ucat/AboutBYU/Accreditation.php

 

I think when guiding our adult children in the selection of schools, it is important to model intellectual honesty. Sometimes the high road to to encourage them to fact check everything we tell them.

 

Your point seems to be that since both Harvard and BYU have an Honor Code, they have the same goal -- to act in loco parentis.  That is simply not a tenable conclusion giving the vast differences between these codes.  Harvard's code is limited to one aspect of university life -- academic integrity.  Is that the full extent of a parent's involvement in a child's life -- whether or not they cheat on tests?  I certainly hope that someone doesn't one day say about my boys, "Sure, those Newb boys will break into your home, seduce your daughters, and set fire to small animals, but they don't cheat on math tests!"

 

On the other hand, BYU acts much more like a parent.  "Tammy, I don't think that's an appropriate outfit.  Cover your shoulders, girl!"  "Timmy, isn't it time you shaved and got a hair cut?"  "Johnny, I want you home by 11 o'clock sharp!"

 

To say that having an honor code puts one in the role of a parent means that my state bar is acting in such a role because it says that I can't lie to the judge or steal from my clients.  It also puts the state in such a role because it enforces the same dictates.  However, what the state does not do is dictate my choice with regards to clothing, grooming, and bedtime.  It lets me put on my Big Boy Garments and make those choices for myself.

[mormonnewb]

You just summed up why I did not go to BYU. College students being able to act like adults is probably optimistic but it has to happen some time I guess.

 

You'll never know how much it hurt me to give you a rep point, but it HAD to be done! 

[toon]

You're comparing Harvard's proposed "honor code" with Brigham Young's?  Really?  Here is the ENTIRE extent of the Harvard Honor Code:

 

"Members of the Harvard College community commit themselves to producing academic work with integrity—that is, work that adheres to the scholarly and intellectual standards of accurate attribution of sources, appropriate collection and use of data, and transparent acknowledgement of the contribution of others to our ideas, discoveries, interpretations, and conclusions. Cheating on exams or problems sets, plagiarizing or misrepresenting the idea or language of someone else as one’s own, falsifying data, or any other instance of academic dishonesty violates the standards of our community, as well as the standards of the wider world of learning and affairs."

 

That's all, folks!  No promises to abide by the WoW, the Law of Chastity, to watch only Disney movies, etc.

 

As for your ecclesiastic endorsement, Harvard's HC contains no such thing.  The Affirmation of Integrity is simply a signed statement that students will submit with their assignments, tests, etc.  It will read as follows:

 

"I attest to the honesty of my academic work and affirm that it conforms to the standards of the Harvard College Honor Code."

 

So tell me, at which point, will Harvard students promise not to switch their religious affiliation?  Or even better, which religious leader will have to sign off on a student's "worthiness" to continue at Harvard?  The answer is NONE.

 

The Harvard HC is limited to one thing and one thing only -- no cheating on tests and copying your roommate's homework.  It doesn't seek to impose a personal code of conduct with regards to diet, grooming, sexuality or the thousand other things that the Brigham Young administration feels that it must dictate to the "children" in their care (to borrow from your concept of "in loco parentis").

 

And just for the record, most universities don't see themselves acting in the role of parents to minor children because they work on the assumption that their students are actually ADULTS.  That's actually one of the big differences between high school and college (or at least, it should be).

 

For example, my college didn't have set meal times like in high school to make sure that we were all getting proper nutrition throughout the day.  Nor did my college assign us an hour of PE like in high school to make sure that we moved our little bodies around to get out all "the wiggles."  And it certainly didn't set a curfew so that we could be tucked into bed each night and read Goodnight Moon.  Perhaps, it's because the story wasn't political correct enough for us leftists or it MIGHT have been because we were ADULTS who were given the FREEDOM to make our own choices with regards to our whereabouts (and to deal with the natural, but not university-imposed, consequences of those decisions).

 

So while you might like to think that BY is just another school with an honor code (and that all of the "cool schools" are doing it), that simply isn't the case.  BY's HC doesn't put in the class of the Harvards and MITs of the world, but rather schools like Liberty, Regents and Bob Jones University.  And to be clear, I'm not making a value judgment here.  Depending upon the student (and the objectives of their education/training), one of those schools may be a much better fit than, say, Yale or Columbia or top-flight state school.  

 

Isn't it relevant that BYU does not view itself like just any other academic institution.  It's goals and mission are different.  It it's treatment of LDS students vis-a-vis the honor code seems consistent with those goals and mission.  Yes, the consequences may be harsh, but those consequences are entirely within the students' control.

 

Within the context of  BYU"s mission and goals, academic freedom means something entirely different than it does at other institutions.  Potentially the same with other issues that are considered the hallmarks of a higher education.  SInce BYU considers itself as different from "the Harvards and MITs of the world," why should it operate under the same rules?

 

If you were to attend a theological seminary, you'd expect that certain belief and conduct requirements for continued enrollment would be par for the course.  Why would you expect BYU to be different?  In this regard, BYU is more like Liberty, Regents, or Bob Jones.  So what?  I think people make the mistake in thinking that BYU isn't.

[mormonnewb]

Isn't it relevant that BYU does not view itself like just any other academic institution.  It's goals and mission are different.  It it's treatment of LDS students vis-a-vis the honor code seems consistent with those goals and mission.  Yes, the consequences may be harsh, but those consequences are entirely within the students' control.

 

Within the context of  BYU"s mission and goals, academic freedom means something entirely different than it does at other institutions.  Potentially the same with other issues that are considered the hallmarks of a higher education.  SInce BYU considers itself as different from "the Harvards and MITs of the world," why should it operate under the same rules?

 

If you were to attend a theological seminary, you'd expect that certain belief and conduct requirements for continued enrollment would be par for the course.  Why would you expect BYU to be different?  In this regard, BYU is more like Liberty, Regents, or Bob Jones.  So what?  I think people make the mistake in thinking that BYU isn't.

 

Agreed.  Being a newb, I wasn't aware just how different BYU is from other institutions.  And in my limited dealings with BYU administration officials and faculty, this difference isn't something that was stressed.  Instead, I heard a lot about the high rankings of the law school, the awards given to its animation department, post-graduation employment figures, etc.

 

And no, I'm not saying that I was "lied to" or that school officials "hid" things from me.  I'm sure that they would have been happy to tell me of the school's broader mission had I asked.  But that's why I come here -- to ask questions that I didn't think to ask at other times.

[ERayR]

Agreed.  Being a newb, I wasn't aware just how different BYU is from other institutions.  And in my limited dealings with BYU administration officials and faculty, this difference isn't something that was stressed.  Instead, I heard a lot about the high rankings of the law school, the awards given to its animation department, post-graduation employment figures, etc.

 

And no, I'm not saying that I was "lied to" or that school officials "hid" things from me.  I'm sure that they would have been happy to tell me of the school's broader mission had I asked.  But that's why I come here -- to ask questions that I didn't think to ask at other times.

 

For some reason those questions you "ask" seem to sound like accusations.

[Tacenda]

You got to hand it to BYU students and faculty, some pretty incredible inventions have come out of there and some very open papers about the nitty gritty in church history. Two of the things I admire most about the school, and am proud to say my uncle was a professor there.

[CV75]

Your point seems to be that since both Harvard and BYU have an Honor Code, they have the same goal -- to act in loco parentis.  That is simply not a tenable conclusion giving the vast differences between these codes.  Harvard's code is limited to one aspect of university life -- academic integrity.  Is that the full extent of a parent's involvement in a child's life -- whether or not they cheat on tests?  I certainly hope that someone doesn't one day say about my boys, "Sure, those Newb boys will break into your home, seduce your daughters, and set fire to small animals, but they don't cheat on math tests!"

 

On the other hand, BYU acts much more like a parent.  "Tammy, I don't think that's an appropriate outfit.  Cover your shoulders, girl!"  "Timmy, isn't it time you shaved and got a hair cut?"  "Johnny, I want you home by 11 o'clock sharp!"

 

To say that having an honor code puts one in the role of a parent means that my state bar is acting in such a role because it says that I can't lie to the judge or steal from my clients.  It also puts the state in such a role because it enforces the same dictates.  However, what the state does not do is dictate my choice with regards to clothing, grooming, and bedtime.  It lets me put on my Big Boy Garments and make those choices for myself.

No, my point is that both are bona fide universities and “both have an honor code, a means to affirm it, and practice in locum parentis as it is expressed today [i.e. duty of care].” Both universities are right to have these reflect their values and mission, and neither is wrong where they differ in application or manner of administration.

 

Wherever an honor code applies to the governance of students and not faculty (such as at Harvard) but where faculty and students share responsibility for its enforcement (such as with Harvard’s Honor Board), the balance of power is obvious and arguably appropriate -- much like a parent to children, though all share responsibility for the proper functioning of the family council.

 

I note that the tension between the departure from strict in locum parentis and the emphasis on a technical “duty of care” (since the 60’s) shows that what universities are practicing and what the parents of students expect today (as evidenced in the outcomes of court cases) is defining something between the two extremes.

 

I’m not familiar with state bars requiring honor codes; rules professional conduct seem to be something else altogether. But I guess that doesn’t bar any professional from having authority issues or from saying that he’s all grown up now and doesn’t need anybody’s rules.

[CV75]

Agreed.  Being a newb, I wasn't aware just how different BYU is from other institutions.  And in my limited dealings with BYU administration officials and faculty, this difference isn't something that was stressed.  Instead, I heard a lot about the high rankings of the law school, the awards given to its animation department, post-graduation employment figures, etc.

 

And no, I'm not saying that I was "lied to" or that school officials "hid" things from me.  I'm sure that they would have been happy to tell me of the school's broader mission had I asked.  But that's why I come here -- to ask questions that I didn't think to ask at other times.

Doesn't the Internet count for anything anymore?

 

http://aims.byu.edu/mission_statement

http://aims.byu.edu/aims

[Tsuzuki]

It is BYU mission to educate the future leaders of the Church.

What is the percentage of general authorities that went to BYU?

[Kenngo1969]

What is the percentage of general authorities that went to BYU?

I dunno, but I think it's a reasonable assumption that more than a few of the local leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have been educated at BYU.

[Tsuzuki]

I dunno, but I think it's a reasonable assumption that more than a few of the local leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have been educated at BYU.

I would agree with you that there are probably more than three local leaders in the entire church that went to BYU.

[Kenngo1969]

I would agree with you that there are probably more than three local leaders in the entire church that went to BYU.

I tend to be very precise in my use of language, but even I think you're being a wee bit to literal on this one!  Just sayin'!

[Tacenda]

I posted this on another thread but don't want to derail on the topic.  But noticed this older thread that I'd forgotten about, and at the time didn't know of a situation of it happening so close to home.  Over the weekend a friend told me her neighbor's daughter attended LDS Business College, lost her faith during that time and in a bishop's interview expressed her doubts which led to losing the 18 months of credit that she had earned.  It could have been her negative attitude, I'm not sure, but she and her family are devastated.  Maybe she shouldn't have been so forthright, but did she know that?  I believe there should be clearness in the policy.  But as I mentioned in the other thread, many young adults go through a change in their thinking, she may come back to belief again, but what a huge scar that will be left, involving that faith transition.  

 

I went to LDSBC in the early 80'sand don't remember any ecclesiastical endorsement policy or needing a bishop's interview, of course it's a yearly thing I believe and I didn't attend for a full year. I did have to take religion classes though.  

 

Below are links to Trib Talk and a video and transcript of the students that gathered for a meeting with the NWCCU accreditation group.  In the Trib Talk they do mention that in the past if a student changed their religious belief they could just start paying the higher tuition fees, I believe this changed in 1993.  It's just so unfair and forces individuals to hide in secret.  Is that free will?  I don't think so.  Why is the church pro religious freedom yet treats them this way, making them lose years of transcripts or even make them find a new home or new job possibly.  Like they say in the Trib Talk, the punishment doesn't fit the crime.  When students sign on, they probably do believe, but who's to say things won't change.      

 

 

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/262087900/Transcript-of-NWCCU-Accreditation-Meeting-with-BYU-Students-April-15th-2015#scribd

 

http://mormonstories.org/bonus-byu-accreditation-meeting-with-students-april-2015/

[HappyJackWagon]

This issue really concerns me. My daughter really wants to attend BYU. She's got the grades, extracuricular, test scores etc to get in when she applies next year but she's also a seeker of knowledge. I don't know if she would become unorthodox in her beliefs to the level of disafilliating with the church. I have no reason to think that would happen, but it certainly could. And the possibility that BYU would refuse to transfer her credits or allow her to graduate based on an ecclesiastical endorsement seem like to much of a risk, leadership roullette and all.

[Boanerges]

This issue really concerns me. My daughter really wants to attend BYU. She's got the grades, extracuricular, test scores etc to get in when she applies next year but she's also a seeker of knowledge. I don't know if she would become unorthodox in her beliefs to the level of disafilliating with the church. I have no reason to think that would happen, but it certainly could. And the possibility that BYU would refuse to transfer her credits or allow her to graduate based on an ecclesiastical endorsement seem like to much of a risk, leadership roullette and all.

I understand your concern. Three of my children have attended BYU, the oldest is a graduate and the most questioning of the three. She made it through, but if you think there is a real possibility your daughter might not I'd steer her away (maybe to UVU, still Provo living but without the other worries). As seen on the NOM and StayLDS boards, it is possible to hide and make it through, but it isn't easy. FWIW, there also seems to be an increasing number of the professional staff (faculty) at BYU who are going down the questioning path.

[stemelbow]

I understand your concern. Three of my children have attended BYU, the oldest is a graduate and the most questioning of the three. She made it through, but if you think there is a real possibility your daughter might not I'd steer her away (maybe to UVU, still Provo living but without the other worries). As seen on the NOM and StayLDS boards, it is possible to hide and make it through, but it isn't easy. FWIW, there also seems to be an increasing number of the professional staff (faculty) at BYU who are going down the questioning path.

The end result of all the questioning will be good for the Church. Too many have feared questions, too many have condemned those who question. It's time we learn to embrace. Questioning is what got this church started, and the lack of it has done nothing but held the Church and it's members back.

[Boanerges]

The end result of all the questioning will be good for the Church. Too many have feared questions, too many have condemned those who question. It's time we learn to embrace. Questioning is what got this church started, and the lack of it has done nothing but held the Church and it's members back.

I totally agree.

[Scott Lloyd]

As the father of children who must meet rigid requirements, academic as well as ecclesiastical, if they hope to attend BYU, I for one would strenuously object to enrollment slots being occupied by those who had apostatized or who otherwise had broken their covenants or failed to live up to their conditions for admission.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

As the father of children who must meet rigid requirements, academic as well as ecclesiastical, if they hope to attend BYU, I for one would strenuously object to enrollment slots being occupied by those who had apostatized or who otherwise had broken their covenants or failed to live up to their conditions for admission.

 

Don't care.

Treat people fairly. It's not a difficult concept.