Free Byu?

[ERayR]

 

Who is paying the bills? It is a Church sponsored school.

 

The individual and if they receive a member discount they are subsidized by the church. If they are not a member they are not subsidized by the church.

 

 

Yes BYU should have such a policy.

 

The policy creates an atmosphere of fear for those experiencing doubts. The policy could easily be changed and if those who choose to no longer identify as LDS wish to remain they could do so with a simple change to paying non LDS tuition.

 

 

No it does not fly in the face of the entire concept of "education". 

 

But it does fly in the face of religious freedom and academic freedom. We encourage people to change their faith to LDS but will not allow them to change it from LDS. Students can grow a great deal from the time they sign an honor code as an 18 year old. It is unfortunate that they would be penalized with a forced transfer, losing many credit hours of work because they have serious doubts or choose to affilliate with another church. BYU is accredited to give secular degrees, not religious, ecclesiastical degrees.

 

 

Whether you "allow" your young man or young woman to consider BYU is a matter for you and them to decide.  If you they do not think it would be a good fit then by all means go somewhere else that is.

 

The problem is, they may experience changes in their thinking and belief while at BYU.

 

 

http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/63539/http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/63539/

"However, there are some unofficial figures here and here; the most recent estimate is that around 70% of the university's operating costs are paid for by tithing. Note that even students who aren't LDS are partially subsidized by tithing".

 

Such a change would do nothing to alleviate fears.  They would then be afraid of increased tuition costs.

 

No all it does is to not allow them to receive subsidies from the Church they no longer support. 

 

The problem is, they may experience changes in their thinking and belief while at BYU. any college or university the choose to attend.  The problem is should they be allowed to continue biting the hand that is feeding them?

Edited November 18, 2014 by ERayR

[CV75]

No one is arguing about the behaviors someone commits to uphold in the honor code, like law of chastity, wow etc but it is very different to expel a student for his personal religious beliefs. Isn't the church beating a drum of religious freedom right now, and rightly so?

The response was about changing religions. What does the BYU honor code say about that? The combined allowance for ecclesiastical endorsement by non-LDS ministers and for appeal and review of extenuating circumstances provide loopholes for those who think they merit them.

 

But generally speaking, an honor code is an honor code, no matter how poorly one thinks it upholds religious freedom. In eh post above, I described how it does uphold religious and academic freedom.

[HappyJackWagon]

http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/63539/http://theboard.byu.edu/questions/63539/

"However, there are some unofficial figures here and here; the most recent estimate is that around 70% of the university's operating costs are paid for by tithing. Note that even students who aren't LDS are partially subsidized by tithing".

 

Such a change would do nothing to alleviate fears.  They would then be afraid of increased tuition costs.

 

No all it does is to not allow them to receive subsidies from the Church they no longer support. 

 

The problem is, they may experience changes in their thinking and belief while at BYU. any college or university the choose to attend.  The problem is should they be allowed to continue biting the hand that is feeding them?

Simple solution. Change the pricing so that all non-lds students are not subsidized at all. But there's no need to treat formerly lds students differently. Yes, it may cause financial hardship by requiring them to pay more but it at least gives them the choice of avoiding the loss of credit hours already earned. If they don't want to pay then they can transfer and lose their credits.

[Kenngo1969]

No one is arguing about the behaviors someone commits to uphold in the honor code, like law of chastity, wow etc but it is very different to expel a student for his personal religious beliefs. Isn't the church beating a drum of religious freedom right now, and rightly so?

Yeah.  Gay marriage is a government action and, according to the courts that have upheld it, a fundamental right; those upholding courts have determined that there is no constitutional warrant for the government withholding it from same-sex couples. The religious freedom argument vis-a-vis marriage, by contrast, is that, notwithstanding any court holding regarding the legality of government-sanctioned gay marriage, churches who believe that only marriage between a man and a woman should also not be denied the right under the Free Exercise clause to determine whom they will perform that ceremony for as a religious sacrament. 

[ERayR]

No one is arguing about the behaviors someone commits to uphold in the honor code, like law of chastity, wow etc but it is very different to expel a student for his personal religious beliefs. Isn't the church beating a drum of religious freedom right now, and rightly so?

 

When those personal religious beliefs are the basis for receiving significant monetary subsidies it takes on a different significance.

[ERayR]

Simple solution. Change the pricing so that all non-lds students are not subsidized at all. But there's no need to treat formerly lds students differently. Yes, it may cause financial hardship by requiring them to pay more but it at least gives them the choice of avoiding the loss of credit hours already earned. If they don't want to pay then they can transfer and lose their credits.

 

Not unreasonable but then do they have to repay all the subsidies they have already received un false pretenses?

[stemelbow]

Just to be clear the free BYU movement is seeking to allow students who lose their faith and leave the Church to finish their degree while paying the increased tuition that is asked of by non-LDS students. It doesn't appear as though anyone gets that.

Interesting though, if they leave the Church while attending school, their tithing is probably pretty much nothing. Their parents most likely still pay and have paid for years. Seems heartless to make a stink about moneys for these type of students, but they are being cooperative enough to only seek the ability to finish out their schooling and not seek the tuition benefits.

[Jeanne]

If a student has done well..up on all classes and is ready or close to a degree, I believe that should matter.  That is what school is for and what learning is all about in any school.  In some cases, and I say some, the small errant dishonor of a code should not take away years of productive learning.  It is more of a tantrum to prove authority.  I, for one, thought that Chad Hardy got the bum end of the deal.  It was a chance for the Church to give credit to hard work in education.

 

Jeanne

[CV75]

Just to be clear the free BYU movement is seeking to allow students who lose their faith and leave the Church to finish their degree while paying the increased tuition that is asked of by non-LDS students. It doesn't appear as though anyone gets that.

Maybe you're not reading enough of the posts. it's not about the money.

 

It’s not about the money; it’s about the honor code and personal integrity and the educational atmosphere BYU is cultivating.

 

Ex-members (and in some cases ex-convicts that retain membership) give up consideration for a number of Church callings and assignments even when fellowshipped or re-baptized. The policy is consistent with that principle and practice. They don't get callings and assignments in return for making monetary contributions.

 

Interesting though, if they leave the Church while attending school, their tithing is probably pretty much nothing. Their parents most likely still pay and have paid for years. Seems heartless to make a stink about moneys for these type of students, but they are being cooperative enough to only seek the ability to finish out their schooling and not seek the tuition benefits.

If it seems heartless to make a stink about how little students "pay" in tithing, or that their parents are footing their bill anyway, it also seems meaningless to make a stink in favor of their paying non-member rates. It's not that expensive a school.

[Robert F. Smith]

The church charges more tuition for non-members.

As long as the church wishes to keep BYU accredited it may be in their best interest to reconsider this faith clause of the honor code.

Is that one of the considerations made by the regional accrediting agency when it examines BYU?  http://registrar.byu.edu/catalog/2013-2014ucat/AboutBYU/Accreditation.php .

[Robert F. Smith]

If a student has done well..up on all classes and is ready or close to a degree, I believe that should matter.  That is what school is for and what learning is all about in any school.  In some cases, and I say some, the small errant dishonor of a code should not take away years of productive learning.  It is more of a tantrum to prove authority.  I, for one, thought that Chad Hardy got the bum end of the deal.  It was a chance for the Church to give credit to hard work in education.

 

Jeanne

I don't know about Chad Hardy, but his credits are transferable.

[Kenngo1969]

If a student has done well..up on all classes and is ready or close to a degree, I believe that should matter.  That is what school is for and what learning is all about in any school.  In some cases, and I say some, the small errant dishonor of a code should not take away years of productive learning.  It is more of a tantrum to prove authority.  I, for one, thought that Chad Hardy got the bum end of the deal.  It was a chance for the Church to give credit to hard work in education.

 

Jeanne

Why should BYU change to "meet the needs" (my phrase) of those who have lost their faith in the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ? Why can't such students simply transfer?  Yes, they might lose credit, but people make decisions and pay the price for those decisions all the time.  That's how the world works.  My employer may impose obligations on me; if I find those obligations onerous (regardless how long I have been in that employer's employ), I'm free to offer my services to a different employer.  I may lose seniority, retirement benefits, and be made to account for other ways in which what the two employers offer is different.  Why must a different principle apply here?  When students come to BYU as undergraduates, they're on the cusp of adulthood.  Adulthood carries with it certain expectations, one of which is that one agrees to abide by the policies an organization sets up in exchange for receiving the benefits that the organization provides.  Why send the message that the world will comply with Little Johnny's or Little Janie's whims by forcing BYU (or any other school) to change its policies?  All that practice would do is postpone the rude awakening that is certain to occur when an organization decides that the objectives furthered by its policies are more important than changing those policies to cater to Little Johnny's or Little Janie's whims.  

[Robert F. Smith]

Simple solution. Change the pricing so that all non-lds students are not subsidized at all. But there's no need to treat formerly lds students differently. Yes, it may cause financial hardship by requiring them to pay more but it at least gives them the choice of avoiding the loss of credit hours already earned. If they don't want to pay then they can transfer and lose their credits.

Do they lose their credits when they transfer?

Does BYU consider allowing them to continue on campus tantamount to allowing a contagion free rein?

[stemelbow]

Do they lose their credits when they transfer?

Does BYU consider allowing them to continue on campus tantamount to allowing a contagion free rein?

Credits simply don't transfer well in some cases.

[Sleeper Cell]

Simple solution. Change the pricing so that all non-lds students are not subsidized at all. But there's no need to treat formerly lds students differently. Yes, it may cause financial hardship by requiring them to pay more but it at least gives them the choice of avoiding the loss of credit hours already earned. If they don't want to pay then they can transfer and lose their credits.

Why penalize non-members to keep disaffected and former members happy?

[stemelbow]

Why penalize non-members to keep disaffected and former members happy?

how would non-members be penalized?

[Robert F. Smith]

Credits simply don't transfer well in some cases.

Probably true for a  half credit for attendance at a devotional assembly, but my experience is that most credits transfer just fine.

[Kenngo1969]

Credits simply don't transfer well in some cases.

And?  Most BYU students are young adults.  Part of what it means to be an adult is making choices and being willing to live with consequences of those choices.  Why should BYU change to cater to Little Johnny's or Little Janie's whims when that's not how the world works?  They're in for a rude awakening the minute they become affiliated with some other organization that refuses to cater to their whims anyway.  Why postpone the inevitable?

Edited November 18, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Robert F. Smith]

how would non-members be penalized?

Perhaps by being required to pay an even greater tuition and fees?  Someone suggested that as a way of dealing with the problem of letting apostates continue at BYU and not be subsidized at all (and to be equal with non-members).

 

Israeli Jews did not charge me extra for not being Jewish when I lived in Israel and partook of subsidized services provided by the State.  However, if I became an enemy of that country or people, they could certainly have immediately deported me.  I was there on good behavior, and was certainly conscious of that fact.  My visa renewals depended upon it.

 

Were I a student at a service academy (West Point, Annapolis, VMI, or the Air Force Academy) and I broke their honor code, I would expect to be expelled.  However, I would be able to transfer my credits in full.

[thesometimesaint]

I never had any trouble at all transferring my credits to and from BYU.

[Kenngo1969]

I never had any trouble at all transferring my credits to and from BYU.

But, but, but ...  BYU requires its students to take classes in ... [hushed whisper] ... religion.  And not just classes in any religion, but classes in the Mormon religion!  And those credits, earned by studying a religion in which the sort of testimony-losing student under discussion here no longer believes, don't easily transfer!

 

Oh, the horrors!

[Jeanne]

Why didn't BYU just give Hardy his diploma.  his credits were completed.  Instead they withheld it..transferring to another school wasn't really a reasonable option.

[Kenngo1969]

Why didn't BYU just give Hardy his diploma.  his credits were completed.  Instead they withheld it..transferring to another school wasn't really a reasonable option.

Why not?

 

P.S.: I realize he may have to take a few extra classes; I did that when I transferred.  Why is he so special?

 

P.P.S.:  This source (http://www.appeal-democrat.com/creator-of-mormon-calendar-loses-appeal-for-byu-diploma/article_f75dd09e-f8df-55d2-bb16-2bbe4417421a.html?mode=jqm) says Hardy ceased or curtailed his activity in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 2002.  If that is correct, why shouldn't Hardy be required to mitigate his own damages by coming clean with school and Church officials and seeking to transfer then?  I have no way of knowing for sure, of course, but I suspect at least part of the answer to that question is because Hardy told himself something like this: "Why should I transfer to another school?  Why not keep up the charade and not let on about my change of heart until I'm about ready to graduate?  That way, I can paint school and Church officials into a corner, make them look like the bad guys, and get all kinds of publicity for me and for my pet cause(s) if they withhold my degree."

 

Maybe people who argue that BYU should deal with LDS students who lose their testimonies differently can make a good case but, if so, Chad Hardy isn't the poster child for that case.  His case isn't a case of a BYU student losing his testimony, coming clean, and arguing in good faith what the consequences of those events should be. Apparently, rather, Hardy's case is a case of someone who lost his testimony in 2002, lied to maintain good standing by receiving an ecclesiastical endorsement thereafter, and now simply wants the Church of Jesus Christ and its flagship university to overlook that conduct.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[thesometimesaint]

Why didn't BYU just give Hardy his diploma.  his credits were completed.  Instead they withheld it..transferring to another school wasn't really a reasonable option.

 

Because he didn't complete the requirements for graduation from BYU. The U of U isn't very far in travel time from BYU.

[Kenngo1969]

Because he didn't complete the requirements for graduation from BYU. The U of U isn't very far in travel time from BYU.

That's true, but everybody knows the "U" is The Devil's School!   ^* Besides, sure, Hardy could've come clean and sought to transfer rather than apparently keeping up a charade, trying to make Church and BYU officials look bad, and then getting all kinds of publicity and sympathy by suing them for not giving him what he wanted!  But where's the fun in that?!

 

^*Kenngo1969 = "U" Graduate

Edited November 18, 2014 by Kenngo1969