Free Byu?

[stemelbow]

Often as is the case, children going away to school don't have their own testimonies to begin with, and they largely may not even realize it. They have often been lead to think and feel whatever their parents think and feel. When they go to college, they get the opportunity to see things a little differently.

This just seems like a terrible policy. We should want to continue to embrace those who leave the faith, but instead we send messages from places like BYU that say, "you want to leave the Church. Well, good, then get out. We don't want you anyway".

To add, it's not as if we haven't had LDS families treat their ex-LDS families poorly, only cementing the ex-LDS in the place outside the Church. This is just more of the same. No wonder where LDS families get the ideas of disowning their own family members.

[ERayR]

Often as is the case, children going away to school don't have their own testimonies to begin with, and they largely may not even realize it. They have often been lead to think and feel whatever their parents think and feel. When they go to college, they get the opportunity to see things a little differently.

This just seems like a terrible policy. We should want to continue to embrace those who leave the faith, but instead we send messages from places like BYU that say, "you want to leave the Church. Well, good, then get out. We don't want you anyway".

To add, it's not as if we haven't had LDS families treat their ex-LDS families poorly, only cementing the ex-LDS in the place outside the Church. This is just more of the same. No wonder where LDS families get the ideas of disowning their own family members.

 

Question:  If your grown child (who is living with you) decided not to obey house rules, sleep all day and did drug and booze parties all night and expected you to continue to pay for their lifestyle, would you continue to support them.

[stemelbow]

Question:  If your grown child (who is living with you) decided not to obey house rules, sleep all day and did drug and booze parties all night and expected you to continue to pay for their lifestyle, would you continue to support them.

So a student who loses his/her faith is being likened unto a grown child who disobeys all rules, sleeps all day and does drugs with booze parties? Fewf! Am I starting to see the reasoning behind families who kick out their own members for disbelief?

I'll tell ya one thing, I wouldn't kick the grown child out of my family.

[ERayR]

So a student who loses his/her faith is being likened unto a grown child who disobeys all rules, sleeps all day and does drugs with booze parties? Fewf! Am I starting to see the reasoning behind families who kick out their own members for disbelief?

I'll tell ya one thing, I wouldn't kick the grown child out of my family.

 

As expected you completely misunderstand and misrepresent what it is about.  It is about obeying r-u-l-e-s and keeping ones covenant (contractual) obligations.

[stemelbow]

As expected you completely misunderstand and misrepresent what it is about.  It is about obeying r-u-l-e-s and keeping ones covenant (contractual) obligations.

Doesn't matter. I find it unhelpful and silly on the face of it. We should expect some kids who go to college will come out with different beliefs. Some will lose faith altogether. Its going to happen. No need to make it harder on them. Might as well continue to embrace them and hope they come back, I say.

[ERayR]

Doesn't matter. I find it unhelpful and silly on the face of it. We should expect some kids who go to college will come out with different beliefs. Some will lose faith altogether. Its going to happen. No need to make it harder on them. Might as well continue to embrace them and hope they come back, I say.

 

Do you think it important to keep covenants and promises?  Should there be consequences for not doing so.  If they haven't learned this by the time they reach college I can understand it might be a shock to them and if they haven't learned by middle age they just don't understand how important it really is.

[Tacenda]

Doesn't speak well for their integrity.

Here's a MS podcast with the guy that started "Free BYU", so right from the horse's mouth.  He and a few BYU previous students and current ones, share their stories.  Still listening though. http://mormonstories.org/free-byu-religious-freedom-and-faith-transition-at-church-schools/

 

I'm adding the intro per ERayR's request:

 

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has long affirmed the importance of religious freedom, even issuing a press release in 2013 declaring that “it is the right to think, express and act upon what you deeply believe, according to the dictates of conscience.”

But a group of current and former students is concerned about implications for students who find themselves transitioning away from belief in the church while still enrolled at a church-owned school. It creates, they argue, an impossible situation where students are seemingly forced to choose between their integrity and the education they have worked and payed for.

In this episode, we’re joined by several members of Free BYU, an organization dedicated to raising awareness of what they consider a lack of religious freedom within the Church Educational System.

We discuss with Free BYU leaders the Honor Code as it relates to religious freedom, ecclesiastical endorsements and how to handle a faith transition while at a church school. We’ll also talk with two current students as they talk about how they are trying to navigate their faith transitions while attending BYU."

Edited November 17, 2014 by Tacenda

[ERayR]

Here's a MS podcast with the guy that started "Free BYU", so right from the horse's mouth.  He and a few BYU previous students and current ones, share their stories.  Still listening though. http://mormonstories.org/free-byu-religious-freedom-and-faith-transition-at-church-schools/

 

Please post a synopsis.

[stemelbow]

Do you think it important to keep covenants and promises?  Should there be consequences for not doing so.  If they haven't learned this by the time they reach college I can understand it might be a shock to them and if they haven't learned by middle age they just don't understand how important it really is.

Toon had said, earlier: "I don't think it's a matter of llying about their beliefs. I'd be very surprised if anyone has ever been kicked out of BYU for a mere faith crisis, or in fact for losing faith."

If it's a policy to eject them from school for losing belief, it doesn't seem like even BYU takes it so seriously, if no one has been so ejected. That would be good news to me, you would seem to disagree with BYU if that were the case.

[Bernard Gui]

When I started at BYU, only new students needed an ecclesiastical endoresement.  The requirement for a continuing endorsement was only added after I had been there a couple years.  I remember my bishop at the time was opposed to the requirement, as he felt it hindered his ability to work with the student members in his ward.  He also felt it compromised the confidentiality of his interviews.  When he had to have the interview, he always started by signing the endoresement without asking any questions, handing it back to the student, and then proceeding with the interview.  He didn't want the student to hold back on the need for repentance and other issues out of fear of not getting the endorsement.

This bishop did the students a great disservice and betrayed the trust put in him by the First Presidency and Quorum

of the Twelve. In essence, he lied for the students. When I was a student I had summer employment with the Atomic Energy Commission that required a high security clearance. FBI agents interviewed people who knew me well to determine if I was trustworthy. They depended on those people to tell the truth about me. There would have been penalties if they had covered up something that should have been known. The same is true of a bishop. He does no one a favor by neglecting his duty as a judge in Israel. It is the integrity of the collective bishops that maintains the integrity of the Church. 

Edited November 17, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[mormonnewb]

"You'd have to take that up with the half of my EQ who has told their children that they would pay for ANY school they'd like to attend so long as it is BYU."

If the guy doesn't want to go to BYU and is only going for the easy ride of getting their parent to pay for it and is willing to lie about belief to do it, that is a statement about that individual, not BYU or their parents.

Most parents wouldn't feel or be seen as required to pay for most of the adult (18 or older) children's decisions in life...if they got married at 19, would anyone expect parents to pay their living expenses for the next four years? While harder, if the adult child doesn't have the same desires for his life as his parent does, then he should grow up and assume financial responsibility for his own life rather than trying to milk the free ride as long as it will last.

What an interesting point that I've never considered from my Gentile point of view. In my family, we are generally of the view that we OWE our children a college education. It would not occur to us not to pay for our "babies" to be educated (many of us even pay for grad school).

Of course, that might change if our "babies" were married at that point and had their own children. I suspect that if our children got married in their late teens and early 20s, we'd see things much like you do -- grown men and women are responsible for their own lives and aren't ENTITLED to financial support until their mid-20s.

From that standpoint, I can see why a typical Mormon parent might feel more selective in bestowing their largesse upon otherwise independent adult children.

[CV75]

What an interesting point that I've never considered from my Gentile point of view. In my family, we are generally of the view that we OWE our children a college education. It would not occur to us not to pay for our "babies" to be educated (many of us even pay for grad school).

Of course, that might change if our "babies" were married at that point and had their own children. I suspect that if our children got married in their late teens and early 20s, we'd see things much like you do -- grown men and women are responsible for their own lives and aren't ENTITLED to financial support until their mid-20s.

From that standpoint, I can see why a typical Mormon parent might feel more selective in bestowing their largesse upon otherwise independent adult children.

Want your kids to succeed? Don't pay for their college education. There was a much earlier study that advised the same, and we (converts) followed it. Our kids and their spouses turned out very successful and are turning our successful children themselves.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanadams/2013/01/16/want-your-kids-to-succeed-dont-pay-for-their-education/

[The Nehor]

What an interesting point that I've never considered from my Gentile point of view. In my family, we are generally of the view that we OWE our children a college education. It would not occur to us not to pay for our "babies" to be educated (many of us even pay for grad school).

Of course, that might change if our "babies" were married at that point and had their own children. I suspect that if our children got married in their late teens and early 20s, we'd see things much like you do -- grown men and women are responsible for their own lives and aren't ENTITLED to financial support until their mid-20s.

From that standpoint, I can see why a typical Mormon parent might feel more selective in bestowing their largesse upon otherwise independent adult children.

I think it is more an economic problem then anything else. I grew up in a family of seven and four of us were at universities at the same time while still supporting three children at home. My parents paid our tuition but they are pretty wealthy. I cannot imagine most LDS families could take on that kind of a financial problem without serious debt.

[Calm]

From that standpoint, I can see why a typical Mormon parent might feel more selective in bestowing their largesse upon otherwise independent adult children.

If a person is old enough to vote and choose to join the army, he is old enough to pay for his decisions if he wishes to live a different life than his parents.

I am not sure if it has to do with being LDS, it may be more my generation and older ones in my experience.

I've known nonLDS parents who were willing to pay their kid's college bills if they went to premed and medical school. If not, they were on their own.

Personally, I would help out at any school as long as I saw them as putting effort into it, I have no desire to dictate school or career for my child.

Edited November 17, 2014 by calmoriah

[mormonnewb]

Do you think it important to keep covenants and promises?  Should there be consequences for not doing so.  If they haven't learned this by the time they reach college I can understand it might be a shock to them and if they haven't learned by middle age they just don't understand how important it really is.

What covenants and promises do these kids break -- the covenant not to ever change their minds? Assuming our kids even make such a covenant, we find it quite "honorable" when Gentile kids break their covenants to join our Church. So is a covenant only to be kept when it's the "right" covenant? Because from their standpoint, the Mormon covenants are about as valid as you see Gentile covenants.

[The Nehor]

What covenants and promises do these kids break -- the covenant not to ever change their minds? Assuming our kids even make such a covenant, we find it quite "honorable" when Gentile kids break their covenants to join our Church. So is a covenant only to be kept when it's the "right" covenant? Because from their standpoint, the Mormon covenants are about as valid as you see Gentile covenants.

That is pretty much what baptism is. A covenant to serve God until death. The Priesthood has similar and even more strict covenants. A covenant with God only needs to be kept if entered into by God's authority. God referred to others as "dead works". Their standpoint is undoubtedly important to them but not to me or apparently to BYU.

[mormonnewb]

If a person is old enough to vote and choose to join the army, he is old enough to pay for his decisions if he wishes to live a different life than his parents.

I am not sure if it has to do with being LDS, it may be more my generation and older ones in my experience.

To some extent all parents feel this way, but with limits. For example, my parents would have never paid for me to 'shack up" with my girlfriend AT ANY AGE. However, they would (and did) pay for my education to pursue a career choice that was not their first choice for me. In the same way, my undergraduate school was not their first choice for me. It was more expensive than my dad would have preferred and not as prestigious as my mom would have liked, but they paid for it anyway because I truly believed that they "owed me" that much.

This same belief was handed down to me and when my oldest boy decided that he wanted to study Theater in college, I simply wrote the check. On the other hand, if he were to get married next week and start having children of his own, I might be more selective in my check writing. The same would be true if I actually kept an accurate balance ledger but that's besides the point.

[mormonnewb]

That is pretty much what baptism is. A covenant to serve God until death. The Priesthood has similar and even more strict covenants. A covenant with God only needs to be kept if entered into by God's authority. God referred to others as "dead works". Their standpoint is undoubtedly important to them but not to me or apparently to BYU.

Really? A covenant only counts if entered into by God's authority (through the power of the priesthood)? So if my wife makes a promise to HF to, say, go to the temple once a week, she should feel free to blow it off because it doesn't really count, right?

Second, holding an 8 yo accountable a decade later for a promise they made at a time when they still believed in Santa Claus is absurd. In law, we don't enforce a contract entered into by an 8 yo over a pack of chewing gum. Because we have enough compassion and good sense to understand that children that age don't have the ability to understand long-term consequences. Yet, you believe that HF is less just Judge Judy and says, "A deal is a deal, Missy. Now, get back in thst sacrament meeting. You owe me another 80 years of devotion for that promise you made when you were 8!"

As always, we see HF so much differently. On the plus side, we do share a common desire for "considerate and respectful discourse", so I eagerly anticipate your gentle response (ducking for cover).

[pogi]

This same belief was handed down to me and when my oldest boy decided that he wanted to study Theater in college, I simply wrote the check.

 

That's one more homeless thespian panhandler I have to say no to on the streets.  Thanks newb! jk

 

Actually, I think that is really great that you are letting them follow their own passion.

[CV75]

What covenants and promises do these kids break -- the covenant not to ever change their minds? Assuming our kids even make such a covenant, we find it quite "honorable" when Gentile kids break their covenants to join our Church. So is a covenant only to be kept when it's the "right" covenant? Because from their standpoint, the Mormon covenants are about as valid as you see Gentile covenants.

Many colleges use honor codes. The student makes a covenant to keep it. When the code is broken and an endorsing authority knows about it, the student is expelled.

[The Nehor]

Really? A covenant only counts if entered into by God's authority (through the power of the priesthood)? So if my wife makes a promise to HF to, say, go to the temple once a week, she should feel free to blow it off because it doesn't really count, right?

Second, holding an 8 yo accountable a decade later for a promise they made at a time when they still believed in Santa Claus is absurd. In law, we don't enforce a contract entered into by an 8 yo over a pack of chewing gum. Because we have enough compassion and good sense to understand that children that age don't have the ability to understand long-term consequences. Yet, you believe that HF is less just Judge Judy and says, "A deal is a deal, Missy. Now, get back in thst sacrament meeting. You owe me another 80 years of devotion for that promise you made when you were 8!"

As always, we see HF so much differently. On the plus side, we do share a common desire for "considerate and respectful discourse", so I eagerly anticipate your gentle response (ducking for cover).

A promise is different from a covenant. A covenant is a kind of sacred contract.

I agree that holding an 8 year old to a covenant seems absurd but your question in this thread basically suggests that an 18 to 20-something year old should not be expected to keep an agreement either..or at least not lose academic credit over it suggests there is no real age limit to this. I admit I am more shocked God wants to covenant with us at all considering how fickle we are. I would argue most adults do not understand the concept of long-term consequences. Have you seen the average retirement savings in the U.S.? Am I supposed to believe they are actually trying to have a long-term plan?

Also, we "owe" God the devotion whether we covenant with Him or not. We made promises before we came here.

I see God as incredibly merciful. He is the best thing in the Universe for us but He accepts all who come unto him and many only do so because they have nothing left. if I were God I would probably be insulted and just leave them which is why I do not have the job. Well, not yet anyways.

[toon]

This bishop did the students a great disservice and betrayed the trust put in him by the First Presidency and Quorum

of the Twelve. In essence, he lied for the students. When I was a student I had summer employment with the Atomic Energy Commission that required a high security clearance. FBI agents interviewed people who knew me well to determine if I was trustworthy. They depended on those people to tell the truth about me. There would have been penalties if they had covered up something that should have been known. The same is true of a bishop. He does no one a favor by neglecting his duty as a judge in Israel. It is the integrity of the collective bishops that maintains the integrity of the Church. 

 

A judge in Isreal is not the same thing as a gatekeeper for attendance at BYU.

 

Nothing in the continuing endorsement process prohibits a bishop from exercising his discretion to issue an endorsement in spite of a student's worthiness issues, such a word of wisdom or morality problem.  In fact, the process can be seen more of an opportunity to have a heart to heart converstation with a student than it is about determining whether one can or cannot attend BYU.  I think it's reasonable for a bishop, as a judge in Isreal, to not want the process to interfere with true repentance.  A bishop that treats the process as a pass/fail test can do a disservice to the student's spiritual health.  A bishop taking this approach is not necessarily neglecting his duty as a judge in Israel; it's an approach that can be consistent with fulfilling that duty and role.

[Pahoran]

Here's a MS podcast with the guy that started "Free BYU", so right from the horse's mouth.  He and a few BYU previous students and current ones, share their stories.  Still listening though. http://mormonstories.org/free-byu-religious-freedom-and-faith-transition-at-church-schools/

 

I'm adding the intro per ERayR's request:

 

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has long affirmed the importance of religious freedom, even issuing a press release in 2013 declaring that “it is the right to think, express and act upon what you deeply believe, according to the dictates of conscience.”

But a group of current and former students is concerned about implications for students who find themselves transitioning away from belief in the church while still enrolled at a church-owned school. It creates, they argue, an impossible situation where students are seemingly forced to choose between their integrity and the education they have worked and payed for.

In this episode, we’re joined by several members of Free BYU, an organization dedicated to raising awareness of what they consider a lack of religious freedom within the Church Educational System.

We discuss with Free BYU leaders the Honor Code as it relates to religious freedom, ecclesiastical endorsements and how to handle a faith transition while at a church school. We’ll also talk with two current students as they talk about how they are trying to navigate their faith transitions while attending BYU."

 

So, yet another little group of agitating malcontents under John Dehlin's disreputable tutelage.

 

Why am I not surprised?

 

Regards,

Pahoran

[Tacenda]

So, yet another little group of agitating malcontents under John Dehlin's disreputable tutelage.

 

Why am I not surprised?

 

Regards,

Pahoran

Not just any group, it doesn't hurt to see all sides and then judge.  They are very even handed in this convo.  And even say that BYU has never stopped transcripts from leaving the school that they know of, or something to that affect.  This guy under JD's tutelage as you say, is the one that started the whole thing or one of several, therefore I thought rather than people on here guess about it they can hear their side of things, whether they take it or not. 

[sethpayne]

What if the students didn't lose their standing in the school provided they obtained an ecclesiastical endorsement from another clergy member and were willing to pay the same non-member tuition rates that others did?

 

That's a sensible policy and one that BYU doesn't have.  If you resign, you are out.  There are no options.