Bernard Gui

Oh YES 🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂🙂

Hmmm. I prefer and trust Jesse’s assessment of Brigham more than yours. “God's kingdom. Such a strange place really, so indicative of the man and his time. A place where everyone works, both men and women, where children continually improve themselves, where every new wonder of technology is harnessed for the poor, where all men strive to be their own best, where above all else men cherish and love their children who alone can make the bright dream come true. Brigham thinks even more about the children now, for he is troubled with rheumatism; he suffers from fierce stomach pains, and the harassment of the lawyers is more painful than it was. He wearies of seeing his name slain, his children hurt, his intentions misunderstood. Sometimes these days Brigham has the blues. But then he remembers the Kingdom—the homes without tears, a land of peace where the wheat heads out every year under the August sun, where the rains come just before the streams go dry. Honor and integrity, courtesy, alertness, curiosity, striving, striving, wonderment and work and the glory of the Kingdom to give it all meaning. Those are the things, said Brigham to his boys, that you must learn from me. When a man's sons know these things he can die without bitterness; when a man's sons know these things he can sleep peacefully in the valley, lying in the shadow of the Kingdom. When a man says these things to his sons, says them from the heart and the bone and the mind, how can his letters be other than beautiful and strong? And that is what these letters are. Sleep well, Brother Brigham. You left more sons and daughters than the children of your flesh. They hear you now. They understand….” “…Confronted with chiding and ridicule from friends and enemies alike, who doubted Brigham's ability to even know all of his children, let alone properly care for and instruct them, President Young nevertheless succeeded in providing for their physical, emotional, and spiritual needs in a manner that is both exemplary and profound. He brought a degree of wisdom and understanding to the task of family management that contributed to a positive relationship with his children and remarkably influenced their attitudes and accomplishments in life. Several factors contributed to this, not the least of which was a paternal love and kindness, balanced with firmness and justice. One of Brigham Young's daughters recalled that "home was as beautiful to me as love and happiness could make it." To his children, no other fact of their father's life was so plain a proof of his greatness as "his life at home and the influence which he radiated there." His daughter Clarissa Young Spencer, who fondly remembered her childhood as "one long round of happiness," wrote that her father "had the tenderness of a woman for his family and friends." Susa Young Gates related that although there were the usual squabbles among the children, "we were not a contentious family." Nor did the size of the family preclude a spirit of companionship and esteem between its individual members. Susa concluded that hers "was an ideal father, kind to a fault, tender, thoughtful, just and firm. . . . None of us feared him." The kindness that characterized Brigham's relationship with his children included a firmness "that neither humiliated the child nor lowered his own self-respect." Discipline was mainly an educational process of example and precept: "It is not by the whip or the rod that we can make obedient children," he stated, "but it is by faith and by prayer, and by setting a good example before them." 4 The few instances of Brigham Young applying the "rod" to his children must be regarded within this framework. If children knew the feelings of their parents when they did good or evil, "it would have a salutary influence upon their lives; but no child can possibly know this, until it becomes a parent. I am compassionate therefore towards children." Governing a home by violence and dictatorship was contrary to Brigham Young's convictions.” He was determined to set the proper example for his large family and the Church members.

And so I have repeatedly expressed the wish that other correspondences between him and his children be collected. They made the best of extremely difficult times. I can’t imagine how hard it was.

I have repeatedly referenced the letters in Jesse’s book, and I have expressed hopes that letters to his other children also be collected. They lived in extraordinarily difficult times. I reckon they were doing the best they could.

I don’t mean to be disrespectful to you or your leaders but that is not in harmony with Church teachings and practice.

Perhaps, but we should not ignore the ample expressions of love, concern, respect, familial loyalty, and devotion on both sides. It is manifestly apparent that they had a very close relationship. The same can be said about his other sons and daughters. The Church was passing through extraordinarily difficult and dangerous times which required strong leadership. Brigham, with his faults, was the Lord’s chosen to see it through. He did that in a remarkable manner. Given what he endured and accomplished he deserves our respect.

Thanks for clarifying.

I was asking Nehor the question in response to his comment, “A common sentiment in the poly community. Love is unlimited. The time and resources to express that love are limited.”

I was answering your questions about how busy parents can make sure their limited time with kids can be productive. Sounds like you don’t like Brother Brigham? We can read the letters from his sons to see how they felt. IMO polygamy had a serious purpose, it was engaged in by imperfect people struggling with very difficult circumstances, who were products of their times, it was hard for everyone, and when its purpose was completed, it was discontinued.

Would a son’s letter to Brigham sway your opinion? Would you agree that they had a very close relationship? ”Sorrow is our heritage in this life," [wrote John W. Young upon receiving news of his brother Joseph's untimely death]. "How does poor Mother bear the sad loss? Her faith I know, therefore do not feel as though it would prove more than she can live through, but two (dear sister Alice) out of five, in eight short months, must wring a mother's heart. You, dear father, have other sons, and many to comfort you, but poor Mother so wrapt up in her children. Thank the Lord my brother Joseph died with the Gospel harness on his back. To die so is to give exaltation to the man, honor to God and a living joy to those who mourn and half the grief is taken away—we know he has gone to a far Better world. May we all meet there. . . . Please give my love to dear Mother and accept dear Father that portion which belongs to a Prophet of God and a dear father combined. "It is with more than ordinary interest and affection that this letter is penned for your perusal. My confidence, esteem, and love, can be three times estimated; first by the undying and unbounded confidence I have in your mission as a Prophet of God bearing the Holy Priesthood; second, by the duty I owe to an able, faithful leader of a Great People; third, by the warmest affection that burns within my heart for a beloved father. In writing this letter there is but one object, that, to assure you the Gospel burns within my bosom. “In my prolonged absence from home there has been no private motive of mine save as the business in which I am engaged compels me. So completely has my mind been on Utah, her interests, and our people, that I suppose I have never realized my absence as my friends at home do. Where one conversation has been upon business, many have been upon Religion, and it may not be that the Lord condemns me for my labor. “My protracted illness of last summer, although severe, was productive of good: it gave me time to think, to contemplate, to see my work, to contrast an occupation for lucre, with that for Eternal Lives, and Glory in God's Kingdom. "The death of my dearly beloved brother and sister, Joseph A. and Alice, sank deeply, and I said, by the Lord's help, when I die, I will die too with full harness on, and not tear and wear my strength and life to shreds promoting any private enterprise. “By thus speaking of my labors East, I do not wish to convey the idea that money has been my object, for the Lord knows it has not, but to build up the Country occupied by the Saints, and learn the commercial and material standing of the world and show them ours, and this, that I might be more useful at home. "The light in which it presents itself is this: where is the place for a servant of the Lord to do the greatest work. The answer comes, at home, in Zion! My mind is fixed dear Father, and just as soon as I can complete my labors here, and discharge my duty to others honorably, command me then henceforth, and with God's help I will obey. . . . Hereafter it will be my delight to pass all the time alloted in your society and under the counsel and control of your great experience. . . . “Sincerely praying God to give you health and happiness, and power to lead the people and defeat our enemies, and with love to all the Brethren I am, your affectionate son, John W. Young."

Our family visited Cripple Creek several times (grandparents lived in Colorado). Beautiful place! Ma’s Restaurant was not so good, though. I was offered a music teaching job in Cripple Creek after receiving my degree in 1970. One requirement for the job was to own a four-wheel drive vehicle. I had an IH Scout. But then I realized the very dearth of marriage-age LDS ladies there that you mentioned, so I took a job in Murray, UT. From thence I met Sister Gui. I often wonder what my life would have been like had I gone to Cripple Creek. One of my favorite Bluegrass songs…”Goin’ Up Cripple Creek” (not the Colorado one). Goin’ up Cripple Creek goin’ in on the run. Going up Cripple Creek to have a little fun Cripple Creek's wide and Cripple Creek's deep, I'll wade ole Cripple Creek before I sleep. Roll my breeches to my knees, wade ole Cripple Creek when I please. Goin’, goin’, gone!

I’m not sure what you mean by that. It sounds like an insult. Do you know our family? Please elaborate.

Ideally, as close as you can make it given the circumstances. Make the very most of those times, try to make them more frequent if you can, communicate in alternate ways such as letters, phone calls, or emails, trust that your partner (wife or husband) and other family members will assure the child of your devotion and fill the void for you, if you are on God’s errand exercise faith to ask for him to compensate in their lives, pray for charity - you for them and them for you, be sure they know the constancy of your love for them……your suggestions? I am impressed by Brigham’s correspondences with his sons. I’m sure he had secretaries who helped, but he covers all the bases…personal, family, and friends news, health, Church events, business, politics, instruction, encouragement, admonition, expressions of love, and more. I would like to see a collection of letters to his daughters. I would like to know if other polygamist Church leaders had similar communication with their sons and daughters.

Thank you for sharing this.

Love works both ways, parent to child and child to parent, and both to and from God. It can vary directionally except when it is unconditional as in God’s love - charity. It is a gift that we seek in our relationships with everyone and especially with our families. Charity compensated for time and resources. What resources do you think are needed to express love?