Free Byu?

[Calm]

"Also, one should immediately measure anything which BYU (as part of CES) is or does over against the existence of nearby Utah Valley University, with an enrollment even larger than BYU. BYU is not a research university and has deleted certain types of graduate programs, but some departments have very good undergraduate programs."

More students transfer to UVU from BYU than the other way around (or did last year when this came up in a discussion between my professor husband and I.

One of the problems is credits that don't transfer well but are required by the school, specifically the religion courses. I think this would be best solved by treating religion like Institute at other schools even if a requirement to attend and then have religion classes taught in ways that would make the credits to other universities transferable. That way, you get serious committed students in the program and the quality of CES teachers go way up.

I don't know of other courses but it would be wise and kind imo for BYU to develop a relationship with a couple of other schools in places their students come from to focus on making course work compatible so credits transfer over.

I don't think the religion courses of today should count towards graduating elsewhere when the change is due to disbelief, a rejection of the teachings of those course (a problem avoided if they are turned into required institute courses. If someone no longer believes, actively rejects those teachings, the credits shouldn't go towards graduation anymore than someone who refuses to follow the proper statistical rules later on in his coursework even if he got an A in the original stat class itself and only later turned against them. (I am sure there is a better analogy but I opened my eyes up at one and am still in reality asleep and this is the best sleep typing can do.

Edited November 17, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

I do think someone who goes through BYU, gets his degree and then promptly turns around and blasts it, telling how they lied their way through it should risk getting some sort of censure, like a guy with a degree in science celebrating he fudged results on experiments he used to pass courses. I think BYU should have a right to withdraw or attach a failed integrity clause...like a dishonourable discharge similar to what other universities might do if it was found out a graduate had violated some significant integrity issue such as falsifying results, cheating on a test,etc.

Edited November 17, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Parents who send their children to BYU and students who pay their own way to come here expect they are sending them into a certain type of social and religious environment. Think of it as a combination theology school where one learns to be a good priest not only through the theological course work, but through courses that teach the practical side of being a priest, and then provides extensive extracurricular opportunities to practice them in order to develop the commitment towards it which committed students take because they see it as essential to learning how to be the best priest they can be.

Someone who enters the school but halfway through decides they don't want to be a priest, but only wants to use the degree to get a good job at some church that is looking to pad its numbers of trained professionals will feel no need to participate in the social or religious activities or to contribute to the extracurricular activities that is a huge part of the reputation of the school with others and why they send recruiters to the school. Space and resources the school set aside for this student is unused, the benefits to the school from the student's work in this area...such as good public relations with the extended community, higher morale among students, less time wasted on distractions that may prove detrimental to the community itself are missing; the interpersonal dynamics of student to student, student to teacher and other leaders, is altered creating areas of that need attention to heal the gap rather than spending energy in uplifting measures.

Lower numbers of committed believing students who participate in the structured social and religious side of BYU, the less effective it will become. If a significant number of participants are actually non believing who are not committed to the same standards and goals of the faith community, the community itself is weakened and may no longer be able to provide a faith strengthening, socially uplifting community for students to interact, benefit and learn from.

Committed resources, often consecrated tithing funds sent to BYU to help create as close as possible in this day and age a committed consecrated community would be wasted. Money would need to be spent instead on removing points of conflict, adjusting programs so as to not depend on students not showing up, providing alternate avenues of engagement for non religious students so as to avoid having to deal with the fallout that comes when young adults get bored, feel out of place and therefore somewhat rebellious.

Does it make sense for a military training school to continue to allow students to attend when students have stated they have no intent to enter the military and therefore will no longer actively participate in the non credit activities that include a military aspect and instead will spend their time looking into ways to eliminate the military from having any impact on their lives? Especially when they have a hundred students eager for that slot for the very reasons the school was built?

[mormonnewb]

Parents who send their children to BYU and students who pay their own way to come here expect they are sending them into a certain type of social and religious environment. Think of it as a combination theology school where one learns to be a good priest not only through the theological course work, but through courses that teach the practical side of being a priest, and then provides extensive extracurricular opportunities to practice them in order to develop the commitment towards it which committed students take because they see it as essential to learning how to be the best priest they can be.

Someone who enters the school but halfway through decides they don't want to be a priest, but only wants to use the degree to get a good job at some church that is looking to pad its numbers of trained professionals will feel no need to participate in the social or religious activities or to contribute to the extracurricular activities that is a huge part of the reputation of the school with others and why they send recruiters to the school. Space and resources the school set aside for this student is unused, the benefits to the school from the student's work in this area...such as good public relations with the extended community, higher morale among students, less time wasted on distractions that may prove detrimental to the community itself are missing; the interpersonal dynamics of student to student, student to teacher and other leaders, is altered creating areas of that need attention to heal the gap rather than spending energy in uplifting measures.

Lower numbers of committed believing students who participate in the structured social and religious side of BYU, the less effective it will become. If a significant number of participants are actually non believing who are not committed to the same standards and goals of the faith community, the community itself is weakened and may no longer be able to provide a faith strengthening, socially uplifting community for students to interact, benefit and learn from.

Committed resources, often consecrated tithing funds sent to BYU to help create as close as possible in this day and age a committed consecrated community would be wasted. Money would need to be spent instead on removing points of conflict, adjusting programs so as to not depend on students not showing up, providing alternate avenues of engagement for non religious students so as to avoid having to deal with the fallout that comes when young adults get bored, feel out of place and therefore somewhat rebellious.

Does it make sense for a military training school to continue to allow students to attend when students have stated they have no intent to enter the military and therefore will no longer actively participate in the non credit activities that include a military aspect and instead will spend their time looking into ways to eliminate the military from having any impact on their lives? Especially when they have a hundred students eager for that slot for the very reasons the school was built?

 

First of all, THANK YOU for being willing to discuss the issue on the merits.

 

As for your point about BYU being weakened as a special kind of institution, I'm not sure how forcing people to "fake it" accomplishes that goal.  The person who has a faith crisis and no longer believes isn't any more likely to believe because of the Honor Code.  Although I do agree that the Honor Code does accomplish the feat of keeping such a person quiet so that they don't create a distraction for others.  While I've never been a big fan of "don't ask, don't tell" policies, I can certainly understand how such a policy MIGHT work in favor of BYU's goal of strengthening testimonies.  Although I suspect that it actually works to create a facade of unanimity of belief that only makes the person in a faith crisis feel more and more alone (I know that one of the things that helped keep me in the Church was learning that not everyone held the same correlated views on all aspects of the Gospel and that some people were able to carve out their own unique relationships with Mormonism).

 

As for your analogy of the military school, I can see your point, except that not everyone enrolls in BYU for the purpose of Church service.  After all, BYU admits non-Mormons.  I assume that there is no expectation that those students will then go on to serve in our "army" of Christians.  Or do we only let them in with the expectation that we will "turn" them at some point and just chalk it up as a cost of business for those that "slip through our fingers" and remain Buddhist, Catholic, etc.?  I doubt it.  I suspect that the university believes that there is some value in exposing our young people to other points of view (at least, in small doses).  Why can't one of those differing points of view be the former believer?  They are certainly far more numerous in, say, Utah, than the half-dozen or so Jews admitted into BYU every year.  Giving our young people "exposure" to actual apostates seems AT LEAST as educational as letting them meet one of the two gypsies admitted every six years.

 

As for your other point about making changes to the curriculum so that more credits are transferable, I couldn't agree with you more.  Quite frankly, if the prospect of a student losing a year or more credits didn't accompany the loss of an ecclesiastical endorsement, I probably wouldn't be so opposed to the policy.  And for most of the affected students, I don't imagine that it would bother them so much either.  In fact, if I was such a student, I would be eager to leave BYU and see what the apostate world had to offer.  However, I wouldn't be eager to add another year or two of school loans to my tab at the end.

 

Finally, the idea that these young people have broken their "covenants" might be a little overblown.  Are we really going to hold them responsible for breaking the baptismal covenant they made at age 8?  It seems to me that spending the first two decades of your life being subject to the dictates of a religion that you later conclude to be false is enough punishment in and of itself.  The idea that these young people have somehow "cheated" the community seems a little backwards to my apostate-like eyes.

 

All of that being said, I really do appreciate your efforts to help me understand why such a policy is in place.

Edited November 17, 2014 by mormonnewb

[The Nehor]

Who says anything about not wanting a world with consequences?  There are natural consequences to any action, but lest you forget, the POLICIES of BYU are not in that category.  They are consequences imposed by MEN.  And while those men have the LEGAL right to impose such consequences, my question here is whether that decision is MORALLY right.  And trust me, there is a difference.

 

I have a legal RIGHT to verbally abuse my wife.  To my knowledge, there isn't a single law prohibiting me from calling her "dumb," "lazy" or a hundred other derogatory terms.  And if she CHOOSES to stay with me knowing full well my propensity for name-calling, I guess some of you would be fine with that.  After all, I provide her with food, clothing and the necessities of life, so if she wants what I provide, then she has to put up with whatever conditions I require, right?

 

Wrong!  Wrong!  Wrong!  Likewise, just because BYU has the legal right to condition its education on certain criteria, it doesn't necessarily make those criteria morally "right."  If BYU made its education dependent upon members agreeing to only vote for Democrats, I suspect that many of you would scream "Bloody murder!"  Or what if it simply required all students to hop around on one foot at all times on campus?  It has the LEGAL right to do so (except for a few ADA claims, I suppose).  But I would sincerely HOPE that some of you would at least ask WHY the BYU-Bunny-Hop was being imposed?

 

As the parent of a prospective student that's all I'm asking.  I've acknowledged for the thousandth time that BYU has the right to set such a policy.  My question is WHY?

 

What purpose does this policy serve?

It keeps BYU to its primary purpose of providing LDS with an education with a smattering of other students thrown in for flavor who generally pay higher tuition. It is designed so the tithing funds that support the school for the most part goes to faithful tithe payers.

If you or your child are concerned that your child might want to leave the LDS faith during their college years BYU is a bad choice for them to make. I consider the policy moral. Leaving the LDS faith while going to an LDS funded school is a bad idea and is designed to be a bad idea.

[Buzzard]

FWIW, I don't know that the policy is set in stone. I have heard stories of students counseling with their bishops who gave them an endorsement to finish school even though they were no longer attending or believing.  And there was a football player a few years ago, an RM even, who went evangelical and was actually a youth minister at one of the protestant churches in the valley who was allowed to stay.  

Now, if you are running around agitating against policy, then you won't be around.  And some bishops are more understanding than others.  But I think it's handled on a case by case basis.  

[thesometimesaint]

Given Cal's point about subsidized tuition, this makes sense.  What doesn't seem to make sense to me is the thought that someone must forfeit up to four years of educational attainment because they've decided to change religious affiliations.

 

I suspect that part of the problem for the institution is that former members could be seen as a corrosive influence, particularly with regards to converting new members.  After all, a prospective convert might hesitate in joining the Church if his/her roommate were at the same time departing the Church.  However, this isn't something from which the Church can insulate new members.

 

For example, as soon as I joined the Church and began telling people about my conversion, I learned that many of the people in my life were former Mormons -- my doctor, my hair stylist (don't be jealous, guys), my neighbor two houses down, etc.  And none of these people were shy about telling me why they left the Church.  Therefore, if one's faith is only secure in an environment of faithful and believing Mormons, then it isn't likely to survive very long in the "real world."

 

It is BYU mission to educate the future leaders of the Church.

[stemelbow]

FWIW, I don't know that the policy is set in stone. I have heard stories of students counseling with their bishops who gave them an endorsement to finish school even though they were no longer attending or believing.  And there was a football player a few years ago, an RM even, who went evangelical and was actually a youth minister at one of the protestant churches in the valley who was allowed to stay.  

Now, if you are running around agitating against policy, then you won't be around.  And some bishops are more understanding than others.  But I think it's handled on a case by case basis.

I hope so.

[The Nehor]

It is BYU mission to educate the future leaders of the Church.

Does this mean not attending means I do not have to be one? Nice......

[thesometimesaint]

Does this mean not attending means I do not have to be one? Nice......

 

I attended both BYU and state universities. So I got the best of both worlds. I've had numerous positions within Ward leadership, but hopefully it was because of something other than going to BYU.

Edited November 17, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[Coreyb]

BYU is not a serious school and every mormon at the U of U knows it

[Sleeper Cell]

 

  I'm asking a "normative" question -- SHOULD BYU have such a policy and whether such a policy flies in the face of the entire concept of "education"?  

 

If a school has an education policy so flawed that it “flies in the face of the entire concept of education,”  wouldn’t it produce graduates with educations so obviously flawed that you would have noticed before learning about the policy?  “By their fruits ye shall know them,” and all that.  

 

Personally, I tend to judge educational polices mostly on how well they work. If I felt that a school produced graduates whose educations were defective, I wouldn’t send my son there, regardless of its educational polices.  If I were impressed by the school’s graduates, I would, at least, reconsider  whether its education policy really did “fly in the face of the entire concept of education.”   

 

And just so you know, I'm not asking for the point of "intellectual sport."  I'm asking because I have a son who will begin choosing colleges soon and I need to know if I should allow BYU to even be amongst his possible choices. 

 

Wouldn’t forbidding your son to even consider BYU as a possible choice also fly in the face of “the entire concept of education?“ At least BYU allows a student to consider other religious choices.     

[toon]

From a faithful perspective, it seems like BYU would be the best place for those who've lost their faith. Why not work with them to regain it instead of treating them as if they've committed some kind of sin? One last thing, from what I understand you can also be kicked out for joining another religion, not just if you lose your faith.

 

Nothing in the ecclesiastical endorsement process requires an LDS student to maintain his or her faith.  The bishop or other leader signing the endorsement is asked to consider whether ths student actively participates in church meetings and is in full fellowship when making his decision.  But the answers to those issues are not determinitive.  I understand that some may see a "yes" answer as a prerequisite to an endorsement.  But still, having lost one's faith is not inconsistent with church attendance or being considered in full fellowship.

 

In other words, LDS students who lose their faith for whatever reason are not in jeopardy of not getting a continuing endorsement.  Rather, it's when they take the next step and either resign their membership or join another church.  Seems what the church is asking is that for those who may have lost their faith to still attend church and keep an open mind, to continue working on their testimony or lack thereof at least until they graduate.

 

When I started at BYU, only new students needed an ecclesiastical endoresement.  The requirement for a continuing endorsement was only added after I had been there a couple years.  I remember my bishop at the time was opposed to the requirement, as he felt it hindered his ability to work with the student members in his ward.  He also felt it compromised the confidentiality of his interviews.  When he had to have the interview, he always started by signing the endoresement without asking any questions, handing it back to the student, and then proceeding with the interview.  He didn't want the student to hold back on the need for repentance and other issues out of fear of not getting the endorsement.

Edited November 17, 2014 by toon

[ERayR]

BYU is not a serious school and every mormon at the U of U knows it

 

But it is one of the largest matrimonial organizations in the world.

[CV75]

SHOULD BYU have such a policy and whether such a policy flies in the face of the entire concept of "education"?

“Brigham Young University, Brigham Young University—Hawaii, Brigham Young University—Idaho, and LDS Business College exist to provide an education in an atmosphere consistent with the ideals and principles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That atmosphere is created and preserved through commitment to conduct that reflects those ideals and principles.” http://registrar.byu.edu/catalog/2014-2015ucat/GeneralInfo/HonorCode.php

 

BYU is like other universities in that it recognizes the contribution of individual responsibility to the general atmosphere, and how this contributes to the outcomes of a systematic process of instruction. For example, Yale has an honor code “to foster the School’s exceptional learning environment and to support conduct that will distinguish the faculty, staff, and students in their lives…” Harvard “encourages students to …assume responsibility for the consequences of personal actions.” It is working on a code of honor to accomplish that.

 

The formality of an ecclesiastical endorsement is a good way to establishing how highly the individual is regarded in his contribution to the greater good, by clearly tying the principles to be honored to their source.

[Calm]

 

What purpose does this policy serve?

And yet again....because it helps create the social and religious environment that the majority of the faith community, especially the community's leaders who frame policy at BYU, that financially support BYU through tithing, donations and the tuitions of their kids if they attend believe is the most likely to produce the kind of individuals that are needed by that faith community.

[Calm]

"I'm not sure how forcing people to "fake it" accomplishes that goal."

No one is forced to choose to lie about their beliefs, that is their choice.

It does prevent more active proselyting away from the faith by those who no longer believe.

[Calm]

"I'm not sure how forcing people to "fake it" accomplishes that goal."

No one is forced to choose to lie about their beliefs, that is their choice.

It does prevent more active proselyting away from the faith by those who no longer believe.

" I suspect that the university believes that there is some value in exposing our young people to other points of view (at least, in small doses). Why can't one of those differing points of view be the former believer?"

The nonmembers don't go in with the attitude in my experience and from what I've heard that they are going to attempt to change people's minds about their beliefs. They go because they want to experience what BYU offers, not change it. Many former members from what I've seen are significantly different, they desire for BYU to change, they would not choose BYU at that point if it was not a hassle or would cost them the same to switch schools.

The "Free BYU" movement is evidence of the difference, nonmember BYU students are not demonstrating to demand BYU open up to admit more nonmembers.

Edited November 17, 2014 by calmoriah

[mormonnewb]

[quote name="Sleeper Cell" post="1209440431"

Wouldn’t forbidding your son to even consider BYU as a possible choice also fly in the face of “the entire concept of education?“ At least BYU allows a student to consider other religious choices.

[mormonnewb]

Nothing in the ecclesiastical endorsement process requires an LDS student to maintain his or her faith. The bishop or other leader signing the endorsement is asked to consider whether ths student actively participates in church meetings and is in full fellowship when making his decision. But the answers to those issues are not determinitive. I understand that some may see a "yes" answer as a prerequisite to an endorsement. But still, having lost one's faith is not inconsistent with church attendance or being considered in full fellowship.

In other words, LDS students who lose their faith for whatever reason are not in jeopardy of not getting a continuing endorsement. Rather, it's when they take the next step and either resign their membership or join another church. Seems what the church is asking is that for those who may have lost their faith to still attend church and keep an open mind, to continue working on their testimony or lack thereof at least until they graduate.

When I started at BYU, only new students needed an ecclesiastical endoresement. The requirement for a continuing endorsement was only added after I had been there a couple years. I remember my bishop at the time was opposed to the requirement, as he felt it hindered his ability to work with the student members in his ward. He also felt it compromised the confidentiality of his interviews. When he had to have the interview, he always started by signing the endoresement without asking any questions, handing it back to the student, and then proceeding with the interview. He didn't want the student to hold back on the need for repentance and other issues out of fear of not getting the endorsement.

Can't give rep points on my mobile device, but I'm thankful for the response. It shows that, like everything else in Mormonism, it isn't so cut and dry.

[Calm]

 

Finally, the idea that these young people have broken their "covenants" might be a little overblown.  Are we really going to hold them responsible for breaking the baptismal covenant they made at age 8?  It seems to me that spending the first two decades of your life being subject to the dictates of a religion that you later conclude to be false is enough punishment in and of itself.  The idea that these young people have somehow "cheated" the community seems a little backwards to my apostate-like eyes.

Please do not assume I include covenant breaking (in regards to baptism) as a factor. When I talk about integrity, it is about being honest about who they are now.

I think before pushing for BYU to change its policies, there should be more evidence that demonstrates it does not attempt to work with those who are in doubt, in a faith crisis, as opposed to those who have firmly decided the Church is false and would resign if it wasn't inconvenient to them.

[ERayR]

Can't give rep points on my mobile device, but I'm thankful for the response. It shows that, like everything else in Mormonism, it isn't so cut and dry.

 

This topic shows that like everything else in Mormonism those who are so inclined can find fault with it.

[toon]

You'd have to take that up with the half of my EQ who has told their children that they would pay for ANY school they'd like to attend so long as it is BYU. In comparison, I feel downright magnanimous by only eliminating one school (and not the other 500 or so).

 

As a part currently paying private and out-of-state tuition rates for two kids, there's a part of me that would have loved it had they chosen BYU or even BYU-I.

 

I didn't need to push them one way or the other.  Neither would have been a good fit at BYU, and I suspect they knew it, which is why neither even bothered applying. 

 

I trusted my kids to make a choice of which school they would feel most comfortable at.  My onlyrules were that whatever school they selected either had to fit my budget or they would have to figure a way to make up for the difference, via scholarships or working.  (I discouraged them from taking out any loans.)  I'm not enamored with BYU, but if either of my kids had chosen to go there, I would have been just fine with the decision, and my bank account would have been even happier.

[Calm]

"You'd have to take that up with the half of my EQ who has told their children that they would pay for ANY school they'd like to attend so long as it is BYU."

If the guy doesn't want to go to BYU and is only going for the easy ride of getting their parent to pay for it and is willing to lie about belief to do it, that is a statement about that individual, not BYU or their parents.

Most parents wouldn't feel or be seen as required to pay for most of the adult (18 or older) children's decisions in life...if they got married at 19, would anyone expect parents to pay their living expenses for the next four years? While harder, if the adult child doesn't have the same desires for his life as his parent does, then he should grow up and assume financial responsibility for his own life rather than trying to milk the free ride as long as it will last.

[toon]

"I'm not sure how forcing people to "fake it" accomplishes that goal."

No one is forced to choose to lie about their beliefs, that is their choice.

It does prevent more active proselyting away from the faith by those who no longer believe.

 

I don't think it's a matter of llying about their beliefs.  I'd be very surprised if anyone has ever been kicked out of BYU for a mere faith crisis, or in fact for losing faith.  (Someone will not probably post an example.)

 

I suspect the issue, if it comes up, only comes up duirng the continuing endorsement interview prior to each year.  The interview doesn't ask any "do you have faith in" temple recommend type questions.  Lack of faith is not grounds for denying a continuing endorsement.  The bishop or other local leader is asked to consider active participation at church (attendance) and whether the LDS student is in full fellowship (most likely worthiness).  As I posted above, beliefs inconsistent with church doctrine or lack of faith doesn't mean someone isn't in full fellowship.