Changes to BYU Admissions Policy

[Scott Lloyd]

30 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

As a side note, I am doing no such thing. I am merely observing that your reaction is overwrought. 

I don’t agree his reaction is overwrought. I think it is quite apt. 

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t know whether she’s hoping for it or not. You just agreed with Bluebell that she might want the Church to take a certain course which would be dependent on the immediate deaths of its two highest leaders. If that be the case, it’s reasonable to suppose she <is> hoping for precisely that.

And not just quietly dying in their sleep; she’s specifying a horrible death by car crash. 

I think she chose car crash because both dying in their sleep say within a week of each other is highly unlikely and a car crash is seen often as over quick, instantaneous as well as not murderous in intent, but accidental.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Not saying it is. But it's also hardly unique among people wanting to go to BYU. If you had a great early morning experience fantastic. Assuming everyone will seems deeply problematic.

Further of those saying it was good I wonder how many would have also gotten a lot from independent study plus maybe a weekly class. (My weekly class sucked too - partially because the students knew much more about the scriptures than the teacher)

The question is for people doing independent seminary (or who for whatever reason didn't do seminary) what this means about getting into BYU.

For the record I find it deeply problematic to discuss someone in this fashion when they aren't even on the list to defend themselves. This is someone who made a random tweet not a public figure. I've no idea what issues, if any, she is dealing with. But if you think she's dealing with issues I'd wonder if you think this is helping with those issues or making them worse? What would the Christlike thing be to do? 

I disagree with a lot of her views, but I've also had quite enjoyable discussions with her. However I find deeply problematic the idea we should contribute to Twitter outrage mobs for individuals with little influence. It hurts them and is at best a distasteful type of virtue signaling (IMO).

For the record, I find it less than reasonable to believe someone should be shielded from criticism for erratic and hateful comments made on a publicly accessible platform with the full knowledge that one’s comments will be open to anyone’s gaze. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

I think she chose car crash because both dying in their sleep say within a week of each other is highly unlikely and a car crash is seen often as over quick, instantaneous as well as not murderous in intent, but accidental.

Both men are old, making for a higher-than-usual likelihood of death by natural causes. So no, I’m not mollified about her wishing for or musing about such a horrible fate as death by car crash. 

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Both men are old, making for a higher-than-usual likelihood of death by natural causes. So no, I’m not mollified about her wishing for or musing about such a horrible fate as death by car crash. 

While I agree with you completely about the comment being crass I would add that death by car crash is probably an easier way to go then by natural causes so I would not call it horrible.

[ttribe]

How did a thread about BYU admission standards turn into a trainwreck about some extreme examples of idiotic comments by a couple of critics?  Talk about a thread derail; this thread never had a chance as soon as Smac stepped in with his latest hobby-horse example of critics being bad guys.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Both men are old, making for a higher-than-usual likelihood of death by natural causes. So no, I’m not mollified about her wishing for or musing about such a horrible fate as death by car crash. 

What is it about natural causes that you think isn't horrible exactly? You release that dying of natural causes can be an extremely painful and drawn out affair?

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, ttribe said:

How did a thread about BYU admission standards turn into a trainwreck about some extreme examples of idiotic comments by a couple of critics?  Talk about a thread derail; this thread never had a chance as soon as Smac stepped in with his latest hobby-horse example of critics being bad guys.

To be fair it is better then most of his derails.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

While I agree with you completely about the comment being crass I would add that death by car crash is probably an easier way to go then by natural causes so I would not call it horrible.

Smashed body bleeding out while rescuers unable to find a usable vein frantically applying the jaws of life to get the bent metal away that is crushing you and keeping you from breathing. Seeing your unrecognizable brother next to you broken, moaning in pain, delirious and calling for loved ones. Yep. That’s a great way to go.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[JulieM]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

To be fair it is better then most of his derails.

😂

But still a derail.  

How about this gets back on topic of the OP?

[smac97]

23 minutes ago, ttribe said:

How did a thread about BYU admission standards turn into a trainwreck about some extreme examples of idiotic comments by a couple of critics?  Talk about a thread derail; this thread never had a chance as soon as Smac stepped in with his latest hobby-horse example of critics being bad guys.

This is a fair critique.  I apologize for the derail.

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Not saying it is. But it's also hardly unique among people wanting to go to BYU. If you had a great early morning experience fantastic. Assuming everyone will seems deeply problematic.

 

I was responding to your statement that 'early morning seminary is stupid.  It just is'.  That makes it sound like you were equating your experience with early morning seminary to everyone else's.  I would never assume that everyone's experience with early morning seminary is fantastic.  

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

While I agree with you completely about the comment being crass I would add that death by car crash is probably an easier way to go then by natural causes so I would not call it horrible.

That’s assuming the death by car crash is instantaneous; many are not. In fact, I would think it a reasonable wager that most are not.

By “natural causes,” I had in mind a quick, peaceful death in one’s sleep, not a lingering, painful death from disease. That being the case, I would think it at least as likely that two men past the normal lifespan of 85 would die naturally within a brief time frame as they would perish in the same car crash or in separate car crashes with the one occurring very soon after the other.

 

Edited August 6, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

What is it about natural causes that you think isn't horrible exactly? You release that dying of natural causes can be an extremely painful and drawn out affair?

As I have explained to the Nehor, when I used the term “natural causes,” I had in mind a quick, peaceful death in one’s sleep, not a lingering, painful one resulting from disease. 

And for men past their mid-80s and still in good health, the kind of death I’m talking about is at least as likely, I’m guessing, as death by car crash or death by horrible disease. If the woman bore these leaders no ill will, why didn’t she imagine for them a painless death (if she had to imagine it at all)?

Edited August 6, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

41 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I was responding to your statement that 'early morning seminary is stupid.  It just is'.  That makes it sound like you were equating your experience with early morning seminary to everyone else's.  I would never assume that everyone's experience with early morning seminary is fantastic.  

I gave the example of my son in high school who just registered for early-morning seminary in the coming academic year and has already had a year of it. He doesn’t think it’s stupid. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As I have explained to the Nehor, when I used the term “natural causes,” I had in mind a quick, peaceful death in one’s sleep, not a lingering, painful one resulting from disease. 

Oh you are allowed to explain yourself but clearly jaycln cannot. You meant a peaceful quick natural death and she meant a horribly painful death 🙄

[clarkgoble]

4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

If we followed that standard, about 95% of contributions to the Board would have to be disallowed.  Ms. Foster, it would seem, is just fine with the idea of courting publicity when it suits her purposes to speak ill of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and of its leaders, while shunning such publicity when it does not.  Your mileage may vary, but I don't think she can (or should be able to) have it both ways.

While I'm certainly open to further information, so far as I'm aware she's a random commenter on Twitter with no real public personae. If giving an ill considered tweet entails courting publicity then probably all of us are guilty at one point or an other. I'm not sure that justifies taking her as personifying anything nor this treatment. If that entails 95% of the contributions, so be it. I doubt that but then I also confess I don't read most of the threads either. I'd hope most aren't attacking individuals of little importance as if they were major public figures.

[clarkgoble]

51 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I was responding to your statement that 'early morning seminary is stupid.  It just is'.  That makes it sound like you were equating your experience with early morning seminary to everyone else's.  I would never assume that everyone's experience with early morning seminary is fantastic.  

Fair point. I think it's stupid to demand it given the range in quality and the range in the experience.

[Scott Lloyd]

11 hours ago, ttribe said:

How did a thread about BYU admission standards turn into a trainwreck about some extreme examples of idiotic comments by a couple of critics?  Talk about a thread derail; this thread never had a chance as soon as Smac stepped in with his latest hobby-horse example of critics being bad guys.

I thought his contribution was quite on point. Happy Jack Wagon was hitting at BYU for its admission standards. Smac gave some plausible reasons supported by concrete examples as to why the BYU administration might want to have those standards.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

19 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Oh you are allowed to explain yourself but clearly jaycln cannot. You meant a peaceful quick natural death and she meant a horribly painful death 🙄

When did she explain why she picked a car crash for her imagined instrument of death for them? She could have picked a painless one. And she apparently has ready access to Twitter to explain herself. 

But why muse about it at all? It seems like a bizarre, uncivil subject for a tweet. 

Edited August 6, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

To be fair it is better then most of his derails.

I think that’s a bad rap. Smac, in my estimation, is the most thoughtful, intelligent contributor in this board. My impression is he seldom, if ever, makes thread derails. 

And notwithstanding his gracious apology just now, I disagree (for reasons I have already explained) that his contribution on this thread amounts to a derail. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

Fair point. I think it's stupid to demand it given the range in quality and the range in the experience.

I may be wrong, but I’m assuming that admissions administrators would take into account an applicant’s opportunity to obtain a quality seminary experience. 

My guess is they are looking for enrollees who improved upon the seminary experience they had available to them and did not blow it off because they had over-extended themselves in other areas. 

While it is no great sin to sluff a few seminary classes, we are talking about a competitive situation in which demand for BYU enrollment exceeds the availability. Some measures must be used to select applicants, and it is right and reasonable for the university to employ those measures most likely to bring in the enrollees who have the qualities that the university administration desires. 

Edited August 6, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[rodheadlee]

19 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Oh you are allowed to explain yourself but clearly jaycln cannot. You meant a peaceful quick natural death and she meant a horribly painful death 🙄

 just an observation but you're digging a really deep hole you'll never get out of. Carry on.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

27 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

When did she explain why she picked a car crash for her imagined instrument of death for them? She could have picked a painless one. And she apparently has ready access to Twitter to explain herself. 

Smac posted her apology in his first post. She stated she didn’t wish President Oaks harm. She said she didn’t want Oaks to be prophet. She said she made a flippant comment (Calm had a very reasonable explanation a page back on why she choose a car crash). It was in poor taste. It was crass. It was rude. But it is not the same as wishing and hoping someone dies a slow and painful death. 

Quote

But why muse about it at all? It seems like a bizarre, uncivil subject for a tweet. 

While I completely agree about the bizarreness and incivility, if you are going to get outraged by every bizarre uncivil tweet on Twitter, you are going to live a miserable life. 

Edited August 6, 2019 by SeekingUnderstanding

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

 just an observation but you're digging a really deep hole you'll never get out of. Carry on.

What I find interesting is the assumptions people bring to the conversation. What I despise and protest is the call-out / outrage culture that seems so prominent. I have not defended the tweet as okay once in this thread. All I am saying is it seems stupid to read more into it than is there. 

With this though, I will take your hint and stop digging. Clearly I am not communicating well, so I will stop wasting time. (Edit to add: spike too soon. Sometimes I can’t help myself...)

Edited August 6, 2019 by SeekingUnderstanding