Sounding the Retreat?

[Tacenda]

11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Mormons worldwide seem to have values which the world simply does not share.  The world at large seems to have what we sometimes call "worldly" values, and we can see those exhibited in the sexual hook-up culture which emphasizes money, power, clothing, ostentation, recreational drug use, pron, etc., perhaps best characterized as "keeping up with the Kardashians," or maybe the Trumps.

In the midst of that, it is only a blip on the radar to observe that the LDS establishment forgot the persecution which they had suffered for their odd marriage practices, and failed to realize that the U.S. Constitution should be interpreted to allow odd marriage practices (including same-gender marriage).  Should the LDS Church be condemned to outer darkness forever for that misstep?  A position which they no longer hold.  Is that the whole story of the Mormon people?

Well, the LDS, especially at this time of year, July 24th coming up, speak about what the pioneers suffered because of persecution. And the LDS don't allow children from gay marriage to be baptised. So to the outsider this may leave a bad taste in their mouth or those LDS that hear of it. 

But I don't want to turn this into a discussion about it, just think this doesn't help the church proceed. Especially the youth, they think much differently than their older counterparts.

[RevTestament]

17 hours ago, Valentinus said:

Any attempt to undermine or negate human rights should be annihilated. Religious "morality" should never dictate civil law. Such advocacy is abominable and amoral.

Without "morality" there is every reason to believe civilization ends and we go back to "might makes right." Undoubtedly, you live in a Western Society which is used to living based on the moral principles of Christianity. Without these moral principles, the United States would be like Rome where the emperors routinely murdered each other and many others in their lives vying for power. Perhaps you would prefer living in Roman society - it did impose a degree of order, but so does Islam. The ideals of morality are really the only thing which preserve free societies - at least over the course of recorded history. If everyone lived up to the Christian moral ideals, there would be no need for governments, and there would be an end for a need of civil law. Nothing abominable nor amoral about that. Human rights are based on the Christian ideal of loving your neighbor as yourself. There is no human right to housing or paid health insurance, etc. Really? I have a "right" to have someone else take care of all my needs? Doesn't that impose on the rights of others? Some "rights" just aren't human rights.

[Thinking]

18 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So it's a speck and an afterthought -- until you decide that it's a monster trampling on the rights of citizens.

It's a remarkable thing watching critics and antagonists speaking out of both sides of their mouths and ostensibly not realizing it.

You used the word monster, not me.

An institution can be insignificant generally, then rise up in an isolated situation and make a splash (kind of like the BYU men's basketball team that was mired in mediocrity then played the perfect game and beat Gonzaga and then quickly slid back into mediocrity).

BTW, it's no secret that the California members were encouraged to do all they could to help Prop 8 pass.

Quote

We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman. Our best efforts are required to preserve the sacred institution of marriage.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Well, the LDS, especially at this time of year, July 24th coming up, speak about what the pioneers suffered because of persecution. And the LDS don't allow children from gay marriage to be baptised. So to the outsider this may leave a bad taste in their mouth or those LDS that hear of it. 

Correct, but those outside the LDS Church do in fact mock it over those value differences, and will continue to do so.  The great & spacious bldg may be in the eye of the beholder.

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

But I don't want to turn this into a discussion about it, just think this doesn't help the church proceed. Especially the youth, they think much differently than their older counterparts.

Possibly true as well, but in a Church with octogenarian leadership any attitude change would take a long time percolating upward.

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, california boy said:

Seriously Scott?  After ALL the discussions we have had on the role the church took in Prop 8 you really don't know how much members contributed to the campaign?  Or are you just trying to split hairs over whether members of the church are really connected to the Mormon church to try and make the church less culpable than it already is in it's role in taking away the civil rights of others.  It is these kinds of dodging the issue that I find so annoying by members of the church.  Why not just fess up to exactly the role the church played in passing Prop 8.  Trying to change the history of what the church did is not going to change the fact, especially in this internet age.  

Never the less, here is the link you requested in the CFR.  Hopefully this will be the last time you try this little maneuver to try and discount the church's role in passing Prop 8.

From Wikipedia

LDS members contributed over $20 million,^[83] about 45% of out-of-state contributions to ProtectMarriage.com came from Utah, over three times more than any other state.^[84] ProtectMarriage, the official proponent of Proposition 8, estimates that about half the donations they received came from Mormon sources, and that LDS church members made up somewhere between 80% and 90% of the volunteers for early door-to-door canvassing.^[85]

This, BTW is in addition to the amount given to Prop 8 directly by the church.  An amount that was also initially minimized until a law suit was issued against the church.  Then all the sudden they came up with the additional amount spent and in kind donations on the campaign that had previously not been reported as required by law.  

 

So it wasn't the Church that donated the money then, it was individual Church members exercising their rights as United States citizens (for which some, I might add, endured oppression from the juggernaut). I don't think you would be telling little fibs like this to prop up your posiiton if you didn't view the Church of Jesus Christ as formidable.

Quote

Or are you just trying to split hairs? ...

Just trying to keep people like you honest.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Thinking said:

You used the word monster, not me.

 

But it's pretty much what you meant, isn't it?
 

Quote

 

BTW, it's no secret that the California members were encouraged to do all they could to help Prop 8 pass.

 

And I'm supposed to feel ashamed of that? But if the Church of Jesus Christ is such an insignificant speck, don't you feel a bit silly for obsessing over this?

 

Edited May 29, 2017 by Scott Lloyd

[Pete Ahlstrom]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So it wasn't the Church that donated the money then, it was individual Church members exercising their rights as United States citizens (for which some, I might add, endured oppression from the juggernaut). I don't think you would be telling little fibs like this to prop up your posiiton if you didn't view the Church of Jesus Christ as formidable.

Just trying to keep people like you honest.

The church was fined a small amount for not properly reporting the donations it made to the prop 8 campaign.  http://www.cbsnews.com/news/mormon-church-fined-in-connection-with-anti-gay-marriage-campaign/

Also, I remember being asked in Elder's Quorum to man phone banks for the prop 8 campaign, that is until the 70 in charge pulled the plug.  It was too much overt involvement.  So the church went back to encouraging private donations to the campaign it supported.

[Robert F. Smith]

13 hours ago, Valentinus said:

It's far from pique. The LDS church has no business in civil law and policy. It's ideals can government it's membership but should reach no further. Theocracy to the slightest degree is an enemy of the United States and should be subverted.

So your claim is that the LDS Church is applying its own version of Sharia Law to civil society?  That is clearly false, and you are on a continuing emotional rant having nothing to do with reality.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, Pete Ahlstrom said:

The church was fined a small amount for not properly reporting the donations it made to the prop 8 campaign.  http://www.cbsnews.com/news/mormon-church-fined-in-connection-with-anti-gay-marriage-campaign/

Also, I remember being asked in Elder's Quorum to man phone banks for the prop 8 campaign, that is until the 70 in charge pulled the plug.  It was too much overt involvement.  So the church went back to encouraging private donations to the campaign it supported.

Operative phrase here being "small amount," sufficient for what amounted to a clerical oversight.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

So your claim is that the LDS Church is applying its own version of Sharia Law to civil society?  That is clearly false, and you are on a continuing emotional rant having nothing to do with reality.

Wasn't going to say anything, but Valentinus does seem to have become a bit unhinged. It's a sad thing to watch.

 

[rockpond]

8 hours ago, california boy said:

Seriously Scott?  After ALL the discussions we have had on the role the church took in Prop 8 you really don't know how much members contributed to the campaign?  Or are you just trying to split hairs over whether members of the church are really connected to the Mormon church to try and make the church less culpable than it already is in it's role in taking away the civil rights of others.  It is these kinds of dodging the issue that I find so annoying by members of the church.  Why not just fess up to exactly the role the church played in passing Prop 8.  Trying to change the history of what the church did is not going to change the fact, especially in this internet age.  

Never the less, here is the link you requested in the CFR.  Hopefully this will be the last time you try this little maneuver to try and discount the church's role in passing Prop 8.

From Wikipedia

LDS members contributed over $20 million,^[83] about 45% of out-of-state contributions to ProtectMarriage.com came from Utah, over three times more than any other state.^[84] ProtectMarriage, the official proponent of Proposition 8, estimates that about half the donations they received came from Mormon sources, and that LDS church members made up somewhere between 80% and 90% of the volunteers for early door-to-door canvassing.^[85]

This, BTW is in addition to the amount given to Prop 8 directly by the church.  An amount that was also initially minimized until a law suit was issued against the church.  Then all the sudden they came up with the additional amount spent and in kind donations on the campaign that had previously not been reported as required by law.  

 

It's a joke to claim the members somehow supported the campaign against marriage equality independent of the institutional church.  There are so many examples of the Church leadership encouraging members to donate time and money.  My dad was a stake president at the time and sat down with individual members asking them to please contribute.

[Thinking]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

But it's pretty much what you meant, isn't it?

And I'm supposed to feel ashamed of that? But if the Church of Jesus Christ is such an insignificant speck, don't you feel a bit silly for obsessing over this?

I liked how you completely ignored the main message of my post and focused on the peripherals. Here it is again in case you skimmed past it.

4 hours ago, Thinking said:

An institution can be insignificant generally, then rise up in an isolated situation and make a splash (kind of like the BYU men's basketball team that was mired in mediocrity then played the perfect game and beat Gonzaga and then quickly slid back into mediocrity).

Do you disagree with this?

[Jeanne]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Correct, but those outside the LDS Church do in fact mock it over those value differences, and will continue to do so.  The great & spacious bldg may be in the eye of the beholder.

Possibly true as well, but in a Church with octogenarian leadership any attitude change would take a long time percolating upward.

 And in that long time coming.. church will be losing some of their stalwart young people.