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Falling out of the American mainstream?


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2 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Seeing some numbers growth in Seattle, but the city itself is growing rapidly.  A rising tide lifts all boats as they say (okay, maybe not the LDS one).  Certainly encouraging to see us emerge on the other side of the Mars Hill implosion with more and stronger local churches.   And regarding you second question, commitment to a "young earth" is not part of anyone's confession of faith that I'm aware of around here.  So no, and it hasn't been for a long time near as I can tell.

Thanks for asking, mfbukowski

:0)

--Erik

Why I actually like you is a mystery to me, but I do for some wacko reason, bro ;)

 

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On 1/30/2017 at 2:28 AM, The Nehor said:

 I actually wish we (meaning meaning members and not the institutional church) were more of a political nuisance to the current administration in regards to the current immigration ban and the anti-scientific threats being made. I have tried to be a nuisance in my own small way and hope I have made a difference.

The sad fact of the matter is that the previous administration did the EXACT SAME THING.  There was no uproar then.  Why the hissy fit now?

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On 1/30/2017 at 2:28 AM, The Nehor said:

 I actually wish we (meaning meaning members and not the institutional church) were more of a political nuisance to the current administration in regards to the current immigration ban and the anti-scientific threats being made. I have tried to be a nuisance in my own small way and hope I have made a difference.

You mean the one that goes like this, "We are doomed because of man-made global cooling, warming, climate change?  The one where the "science" is so sound that exactly zero of the model predictions are occurring?

 

Or the anti-scientific one where they say, "Yes, socialism has never really worked, but you can trust US to get it right this time". 

 

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results really sound "scientific" to me.  Sarc/off

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2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Did you even read the article?

 

FTA

Quote

In 2011, Obama’s state department stopped processing Iraqi refugee requests for six months, though it didn’t disclose the policy like Trump did, ABC reported in 2013.

So, you are hanging your hat on the difference being that Obama "didn't disclose the policy like Trump did".

Or is the difference you are hanging your hat on, Trumps 90 days, vs Obama's 6 months?

 

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2 hours ago, Vance said:

You mean the one that goes like this, "We are doomed because of man-made global cooling, warming, climate change?  The one where the "science" is so sound that exactly zero of the model predictions are occurring?

 

Or the anti-scientific one where they say, "Yes, socialism has never really worked, but you can trust US to get it right this time". 

 

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results really sound "scientific" to me.  Sarc/off

Okay, the global cooling thing is a ridiculously overblown myth and I am amazed it has survived this long. Thank talk radio for perpetuating it for us. It was a minority position amongst climate scientists when it was a running model (around 10% of scientists) and got prominence because Newsweek thought it sounded more exciting then the mainstream view and published a scare article about it. Later the global cooling idea was debunked....largely by the people behind the Newsweek article. The irony of course is that only around 3% of climate scientists now accept that human activity is not causing climate change so you are mocking a failed prediction that has more support than your position. That sounds even less scientific.

Who is advocating for old-school socialism? Bernie and his group are the closest thing we have to a socialist group in politics and they support a kind of market socialism with an emphasis on the market. It is worth noting that the current president considers trade to be a zero-sum game in which countries win and lose as opposed to both benefitting. He is not a fan of Adam Smith and free trade. This is one area where he is conservative....very conservative. The last time we used his economic model it was called mercantilism and led to all kinds of vicious trade wars, colonial wars, and real wars. Not sure this is the kind of old school conservatives I can get behind. After all last time imperial mercantilists tried to dominate the United States we called their king a tyrant and declared independence.

 

Edited by The Nehor
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Some mandatory reading for those of us who think the world will ever be pleased with the Church:

Hugh Nibley. The World and the Prophets. Neal A. Maxwell Institute, 1987.

Especially the chapter "The Prophet's Reward."

For as long as prophets say "we see," they will never be accepted by the world. He quotes Charles ****ens...

Quote

****ens....was very favorably impressed by the Mormons he saw both in America and England, but one thing about them he could not tolerate: "what they do," he wrote in 1851, "seems to be excellent; what they say is mostly nonsense," because "it exhibits fanaticism in its newest garb," namely, "seeing visions in the age of railways."

In the age of the internet.

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On 1/29/2017 at 11:42 PM, Five Solas said:

.............................................................

What do folks think?  Is the Air Force ROTC departure from BYU related to a broader trend Peterson wrote about in 2015?  

--Erik

I think not.  In fact, the opposite is the case.  Mormons are more mainstream and acceptable than ever.  Mormon scholarship is more highly respected and welcomed.  The trend has not in any substantial way diminished, but has been greatly enhanced in recent decades.  This will continue.  The AFROTC thing is a fluke.

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32 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I think not.  In fact, the opposite is the case.  Mormons are more mainstream and acceptable than ever.  Mormon scholarship is more highly respected and welcomed.  The trend has not in any substantial way diminished, but has been greatly enhanced in recent decades.  This will continue.  The AFROTC thing is a fluke.

Seriously? Really?

I have to disagree there.

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12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Seriously? Really?

I have to disagree there.

I am going by the wide acceptance in politics and academia, the like of which we did not see only a few decades ago.  Part of that has to do with the growing size of the LDS behemoth -- in America the same size as the Jewish community, but now the 4th largest christian denomination in America at about 6 million, following the Roman Catholics (68 million), Southern Baptist Convention (16 million), and the Methodists (at 7 million and rapidly decreasing).  LDS will soon take third place. 

It is no accident that several major universities now have formal Mormon Studies programs, nor that Mormon scholars are invited to speak worldwide and are treated as equals.  Utah itself is the fastest growing state in the union.

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On 1/30/2017 at 9:54 PM, california boy said:

When someone mentions the Mormon church, the first thing that comes to people's minds is not family centered church any more.  The first thing that comes to people's minds is an intolerant attitude towards anyone who is gay.  While that is not exactly the church position, it is the public's perception of the Mormon church.  Too many people outside the church have family and friends that are gay.  They are not willing to demonize them in order to embrace the beliefs of the Mormon church.  Less people will continue to accept the rest of the message the church has to offer.  It is a deal breaker to many both within the church and without.  It is a deal breaker with a lot of millennials   And I am sure the church is quite willing to keep that position in place no matter what the cost.

Probably so but the Church can't compromise on important things to gain favor with a group.  If people choose to reject the gospel, they can discuss the issues with the Lord when they meet with him.  The Church will always be few in numbers and it is better to be a smaller church and not compromising than compromising for a short term gain.  We need to follow the example of Noah.  The people rejected Noah. He probably said some things or took positions that were deal breakers to the people.  Noah stood his ground, built an ark, and we know the rest of the story.

Edited by carbon dioxide
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22 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Okay, the global cooling thing is a ridiculously overblown myth and I am amazed it has survived this long.

 

1970 – Colder Winters Held Dawn of New Ice Age – Scientists See Ice Age In the Future (The Washington Post, January 11, 1970)
1970 – Is Mankind Manufacturing a New Ice Age for Itself? (L.A. Times, January 15, 1970)
1970 – New Ice Age May Descend On Man (Sumter Daily Item, January 26, 1970)
1970 – Pollution Prospect A Chilling One (Owosso Argus-Press, January 26, 1970)
1970 – Pollution’s 2-way ‘Freeze’ On Society (Middlesboro Daily News, January 28, 1970)
1970 – Cold Facts About Pollution (The Southeast Missourian, January 29, 1970)
1970 – Pollution Could Cause Ice Age, Agency Reports (St. Petersburg Times, March 4, 1970)
1970 – Pollution Called Ice Age Threat (St. Petersburg Times, June 26, 1970)
1970 – Dirt Will .Bring New Ice Age (The Sydney Morning Herald, October 19, 1970)
1971 – Ice Age Refugee Dies Underground (The Montreal Gazette, Febuary 17, 1971)
1971 – U.S. Scientist Sees New Ice Age Coming (The Washington Post, July 9, 1971)
1971 – Ice Age Around the Corner (Chicago Tribune, July 10, 1971)
1971 – New Ice Age Coming – It’s Already Getting Colder (L.A. Times, October 24, 1971)
1971 – Another Ice Age? Pollution Blocking Sunlight (The Day, November 1, 1971)
1971 – Air Pollution Could Bring An Ice Age (Harlan Daily Enterprise, November 4, 1971)
1972 – Air pollution may cause ice age (Free-Lance Star, February 3, 1972)
1972 – Scientist Says New ice Age Coming (The Ledger, February 13, 1972)
1972 – Scientist predicts new ice age (Free-Lance Star, September 11, 1972)
1972 – British expert on Climate Change says Says New Ice Age Creeping Over Northern Hemisphere (Lewiston Evening Journal, September 11, 1972)
1972 – Climate Seen Cooling For Return Of Ice Age (Portsmouth Times, ‎September 11, 1972‎)
1972 – New Ice Age Slipping Over North (Press-Courier, September 11, 1972)
1972 – Ice Age Begins A New Assault In North (The Age, September 12, 1972)
1972 – Weather To Get Colder (Montreal Gazette, ‎September 12, 1972‎)
1972 – British climate expert predicts new Ice Age (The Christian Science Monitor, September 23, 1972)
1972 – Scientist Sees Chilling Signs of New Ice Age (L.A. Times, September 24, 1972)
1972 – Science: Another Ice Age? (Time Magazine, November 13, 1972)
1973 – The Ice Age Cometh (The Saturday Review, March 24, 1973)
1973 – Weather-watchers think another ice age may be on the way (The Christian Science Monitor, December 11, 1973)thebigfreeze.jpg?w=200&h=263
1974 – New evidence indicates ice age here (Eugene Register-Guard, May 29, 1974)
1974 – Another Ice Age? (Time Magazine, June 24, 1974)
1974 – 2 Scientists Think ‘Little’ Ice Age Near (The Hartford Courant, August 11, 1974)
1974 – Ice Age, worse food crisis seen (The Chicago Tribune, October 30, 1974)
1974 – Believes Pollution Could Bring On Ice Age (Ludington Daily News, December 4, 1974)
1974 – Pollution Could Spur Ice Age, Nasa Says (Beaver Country Times, ‎December 4, 1974‎)
1974 – Air Pollution May Trigger Ice Age, Scientists Feel (The Telegraph, ‎December 5, 1974‎)
1974 – More Air Pollution Could Trigger Ice Age Disaster (Daily Sentinel – ‎December 5, 1974‎)
1974 – Scientists Fear Smog Could Cause Ice Age (Milwaukee Journal, December 5, 1974)
1975 – Climate Changes Called Ominous (The New York Times, January 19, 1975)
1975 – Climate Change: Chilling Possibilities (Science News, March 1, 1975)
1975 – B-r-r-r-r: New Ice Age on way soon? (The Chicago Tribune, March 2, 1975)
1975 – Cooling Trends Arouse Fear That New Ice Age Coming (Eugene Register-Guard, ‎March 2, 1975‎)
1975 – Is Another Ice Age Due? Arctic Ice Expands In Last Decade (Youngstown Vindicator – ‎March 2, 1975‎)
1975 – Is Earth Headed For Another Ice Age? (Reading Eagle, March 2, 1975)
1975 – New Ice Age Dawning? Significant Shift In Climate Seen (Times Daily, ‎March 2, 1975‎)
1975 – There’s Troublesome Weather Ahead (Tri City Herald, ‎March 2, 1975‎)
1975 – Is Earth Doomed To Live Through Another Ice Age? (The Robesonian, ‎March 3, 1975‎)
1975 – The Ice Age cometh: the system that controls our climate (The Chicago Tribune, April 13, 1975)
1975 – The Cooling World (Newsweek, April 28, 1975)
1975 – Scientists Ask Why World Climate Is Changing; Major Cooling May Be Ahead (PDF) (The New York Times, May 21, 1975)
1975 – In the Grip of a New Ice Age? (International Wildlife, July-August, 1975)
1975 – Oil Spill Could Cause New Ice Age (Milwaukee Journal, December 11, 1975)
1976 – The Cooling: Has the Next Ice Age Already Begun? [Book] (Lowell Ponte, 1976)
1977 – Blizzard – What Happens if it Doesn’t Stop? [Book] (George Stone, 1977)
1977 – The Weather Conspiracy: The Coming of the New Ice Age [Book] (The Impact Team, 1977)
1976 – Worrisome CIA Report; Even U.S. Farms May be Hit by Cooling Trend (U.S. News & World Report, May 31, 1976)
1977 – The Big Freeze (Time Magazine, January 31, 1977)
1977 – We Will Freeze in the Dark (Capital Cities Communications Documentary, Host: Nancy ****erson, April 12, 1977)
1978 – The New Ice Age [Book] (Henry Gilfond, 1978)
1978 – Little Ice Age: Severe winters and cool summers ahead (Calgary Herald, January 10, 1978)
1978 – Winters Will Get Colder, ‘we’re Entering Little Ice Age’ (Ellensburg Daily Record, January 10, 1978)
1978 – Geologist Says Winters Getting Colder (Middlesboro Daily News, January 16, 1978)
1978 – It’s Going To Get Colder (Boca Raton News, ‎January 17, 1978‎)
1978 – Believe new ice age is coming (The Bryan Times, March 31, 1978)
1978 – The Coming Ice Age (In Search Of TV Show, Season 2, Episode 23, Host: Leonard Nimoy, May 1978)
1978 – An Ice Age Is Coming Weather Expert Fears (Milwaukee Sentinel, November 17, 1978)
1979 – A Choice of Catastrophes – The Disasters That Threaten Our World [Book] (Isaac Asimov, 1979)
1979 – Get Ready to Freeze (Spokane Daily Chronicle, October 12, 1979)
1979 – New ice age almost upon us? (The Christian Science Monitor, November 14, 1979)

 

It was phony then just like man made climate change is now.

 

The truth is the climate is in constant flux and has been long before man was upon the earth.

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22 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I did read it. The difference is there was cause for it due to a specific verified threat, it specified a sub-group it was banning while letting normal immigration take place, and it was implemented in a reasonably intelligent manner with instructions to the various agencies as to how to implement it.

 

So the difference was motive not action.  Got it.

 

Well keep your panties bunched up.

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Can you point to where Obama's version caused significant disruption of travel? (Trying to tone my post down)

How many travelers were stuck in airports, for example?  Where officials and airlines were left wondering what was expected of them?  Can you show the clear instructions on how to implement the restrictions?

Got to wonder how much of an impact on business this and other immigration policies will have, impact possibly from more the way they have been publicized by the White House and Trump's campaign staff before that.  If people in general feel the States have become unwelcoming or don't trust that something more extreme might happen, I can see changing travel plans to places they see as friendlier.

"Tourists spend more money in the United States than any other country, while attracting the second-highest number of tourists after France.[2] The discrepancy may be explained by longer stays in the US.[2]"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_the_United_States

Edited by Calm
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15 minutes ago, Calm said:

Can you point to where Obama's version caused significant disruption of travel? (Trying to tone my post down)

Can you point to where Trump's version caused significant disruption of travel?

 

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Vance is serving us the world as Breitbart portrays it.  Obviously he finds it very compelling and is prepared to go on & on with their talking points.   

It raises a question I hadn't considered when I authored my OP.  What exactly is the "American mainstream" these days?  Following the utter shock of last November's election outcome, there's been some introspection in our local press about whether we in our city live in a "bubble"--made possible by Amazon, Microsoft, Boeing and many smaller but growing companies.  We've been largely isolated from the economic hardships experienced in many of the states that backed Trump following the "great recession."  We have confidence in free (relatively speaking) trade and travel.  Our local companies (including my employer) depend on employees with H1B visas and so forth for essential work.  The "alt-right" agenda is anathema around here.  Is Seattle, its culture, its values--American mainstream?  Or is Vance's Georgetown, Texas a better representation? 

It's an interesting question, as I think about it.

--Erik

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http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-immigration-emirates-idUSKBN15D0JM

"President Donald Trump on Friday suspended the entry of people from Iran, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria and Yemen. The decision caught airlines off guard, according to the International Air Transport Association.

"I cannot think of anything comparable. This brings a mix of administrative confusion, impact and uncertainty for many travelers as well as practical operational headaches and complexities for airlines in planning their flight programs," independent aviation consultant John Strickland told Reuters.

The ban applies to pilots and flight attendants from the seven countries, even though all flight crew who are not U.S. citizens already need a special visa to enter the country."

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5 hours ago, Vance said:

1970 – Colder Winters Held Dawn of New Ice Age – Scientists See Ice Age In the Future (The Washington Post, January 11, 1970)
1970 – Is Mankind Manufacturing a New Ice Age for Itself? (L.A. Times, January 15, 1970)
1970 – New Ice Age May Descend On Man (Sumter Daily Item, January 26, 1970)
1970 – Pollution Prospect A Chilling One (Owosso Argus-Press, January 26, 1970)
1970 – Pollution’s 2-way ‘Freeze’ On Society (Middlesboro Daily News, January 28, 1970)
1970 – Cold Facts About Pollution (The Southeast Missourian, January 29, 1970)
1970 – Pollution Could Cause Ice Age, Agency Reports (St. Petersburg Times, March 4, 1970)
1970 – Pollution Called Ice Age Threat (St. Petersburg Times, June 26, 1970)
1970 – Dirt Will .Bring New Ice Age (The Sydney Morning Herald, October 19, 1970)
1971 – Ice Age Refugee Dies Underground (The Montreal Gazette, Febuary 17, 1971)
1971 – U.S. Scientist Sees New Ice Age Coming (The Washington Post, July 9, 1971)
1971 – Ice Age Around the Corner (Chicago Tribune, July 10, 1971)
1971 – New Ice Age Coming – It’s Already Getting Colder (L.A. Times, October 24, 1971)
1971 – Another Ice Age? Pollution Blocking Sunlight (The Day, November 1, 1971)
1971 – Air Pollution Could Bring An Ice Age (Harlan Daily Enterprise, November 4, 1971)
1972 – Air pollution may cause ice age (Free-Lance Star, February 3, 1972)
1972 – Scientist Says New ice Age Coming (The Ledger, February 13, 1972)
1972 – Scientist predicts new ice age (Free-Lance Star, September 11, 1972)
1972 – British expert on Climate Change says Says New Ice Age Creeping Over Northern Hemisphere (Lewiston Evening Journal, September 11, 1972)
1972 – Climate Seen Cooling For Return Of Ice Age (Portsmouth Times, ‎September 11, 1972‎)
1972 – New Ice Age Slipping Over North (Press-Courier, September 11, 1972)
1972 – Ice Age Begins A New Assault In North (The Age, September 12, 1972)
1972 – Weather To Get Colder (Montreal Gazette, ‎September 12, 1972‎)
1972 – British climate expert predicts new Ice Age (The Christian Science Monitor, September 23, 1972)
1972 – Scientist Sees Chilling Signs of New Ice Age (L.A. Times, September 24, 1972)
1972 – Science: Another Ice Age? (Time Magazine, November 13, 1972)
1973 – The Ice Age Cometh (The Saturday Review, March 24, 1973)
1973 – Weather-watchers think another ice age may be on the way (The Christian Science Monitor, December 11, 1973)thebigfreeze.jpg?w=200&h=263
1974 – New evidence indicates ice age here (Eugene Register-Guard, May 29, 1974)
1974 – Another Ice Age? (Time Magazine, June 24, 1974)
1974 – 2 Scientists Think ‘Little’ Ice Age Near (The Hartford Courant, August 11, 1974)
1974 – Ice Age, worse food crisis seen (The Chicago Tribune, October 30, 1974)
1974 – Believes Pollution Could Bring On Ice Age (Ludington Daily News, December 4, 1974)
1974 – Pollution Could Spur Ice Age, Nasa Says (Beaver Country Times, ‎December 4, 1974‎)
1974 – Air Pollution May Trigger Ice Age, Scientists Feel (The Telegraph, ‎December 5, 1974‎)
1974 – More Air Pollution Could Trigger Ice Age Disaster (Daily Sentinel – ‎December 5, 1974‎)
1974 – Scientists Fear Smog Could Cause Ice Age (Milwaukee Journal, December 5, 1974)
1975 – Climate Changes Called Ominous (The New York Times, January 19, 1975)
1975 – Climate Change: Chilling Possibilities (Science News, March 1, 1975)
1975 – B-r-r-r-r: New Ice Age on way soon? (The Chicago Tribune, March 2, 1975)
1975 – Cooling Trends Arouse Fear That New Ice Age Coming (Eugene Register-Guard, ‎March 2, 1975‎)
1975 – Is Another Ice Age Due? Arctic Ice Expands In Last Decade (Youngstown Vindicator – ‎March 2, 1975‎)
1975 – Is Earth Headed For Another Ice Age? (Reading Eagle, March 2, 1975)
1975 – New Ice Age Dawning? Significant Shift In Climate Seen (Times Daily, ‎March 2, 1975‎)
1975 – There’s Troublesome Weather Ahead (Tri City Herald, ‎March 2, 1975‎)
1975 – Is Earth Doomed To Live Through Another Ice Age? (The Robesonian, ‎March 3, 1975‎)
1975 – The Ice Age cometh: the system that controls our climate (The Chicago Tribune, April 13, 1975)
1975 – The Cooling World (Newsweek, April 28, 1975)
1975 – Scientists Ask Why World Climate Is Changing; Major Cooling May Be Ahead (PDF) (The New York Times, May 21, 1975)
1975 – In the Grip of a New Ice Age? (International Wildlife, July-August, 1975)
1975 – Oil Spill Could Cause New Ice Age (Milwaukee Journal, December 11, 1975)
1976 – The Cooling: Has the Next Ice Age Already Begun? [Book] (Lowell Ponte, 1976)
1977 – Blizzard – What Happens if it Doesn’t Stop? [Book] (George Stone, 1977)
1977 – The Weather Conspiracy: The Coming of the New Ice Age [Book] (The Impact Team, 1977)
1976 – Worrisome CIA Report; Even U.S. Farms May be Hit by Cooling Trend (U.S. News & World Report, May 31, 1976)
1977 – The Big Freeze (Time Magazine, January 31, 1977)
1977 – We Will Freeze in the Dark (Capital Cities Communications Documentary, Host: Nancy ****erson, April 12, 1977)
1978 – The New Ice Age [Book] (Henry Gilfond, 1978)
1978 – Little Ice Age: Severe winters and cool summers ahead (Calgary Herald, January 10, 1978)
1978 – Winters Will Get Colder, ‘we’re Entering Little Ice Age’ (Ellensburg Daily Record, January 10, 1978)
1978 – Geologist Says Winters Getting Colder (Middlesboro Daily News, January 16, 1978)
1978 – It’s Going To Get Colder (Boca Raton News, ‎January 17, 1978‎)
1978 – Believe new ice age is coming (The Bryan Times, March 31, 1978)
1978 – The Coming Ice Age (In Search Of TV Show, Season 2, Episode 23, Host: Leonard Nimoy, May 1978)
1978 – An Ice Age Is Coming Weather Expert Fears (Milwaukee Sentinel, November 17, 1978)
1979 – A Choice of Catastrophes – The Disasters That Threaten Our World [Book] (Isaac Asimov, 1979

 

 

It was phony then just like man made climate change is now.

 

The truth is the climate is in constant flux and has been long before man was upon the earth.

I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me if I take the opinions of experts and my own amateur reading of the data over your argument that a minority of scientists being wrong in the past is credible evidence that the consensus is wrong now.

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5 hours ago, Vance said:

So the difference was motive not action.  Got it.

 

Well keep your panties bunched up.

No, the actions were different in scope and implementation, the reasons for them were different, and the effects were different as I said. Do you think pretending to be stupid and ignorant is an effective rhetorical strategy?

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7 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Probably so but the Church can't compromise on important things to gain favor with a group.  If people choose to reject the gospel, they can discuss the issues with the Lord when they meet with him.  The Church will always be few in numbers and it is better to be a smaller church and not compromising than compromising for a short term gain.  We need to follow the example of Noah.  The people rejected Noah. He probably said some things or took positions that were deal breakers to the people.  Noah stood his ground, built an ark, and we know the rest of the story.

Well like I said, I hope the church leaders are right about this one, because the price on this position is pretty h high.  It is not about compromising the church's position that has caused this turning point, it is the attack on the civil rights of gay couples that has cost the church so much.  Not sure if that is comparable to what Noah did.  He only preached against the wickedness.  I don't recall him leading a political campaign to take away anyone's civil rights.

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