Sounding the Retreat?

[clarkgoble]

5 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

As I recall, there were at least 1-2 recalcitrant Brethren who were resistant to the idea of extending the Priesthood to all worthy males before the Revelation was received.  President Kimball asked each of them to study the matter individual before they met collectively, and was only once that individual study and collective deliberation occurred that the revelation was received. That notion certainly goes against the idea that the extension of the Priesthood to all worthy males simply involved "a business meeting which ended with everyone in agreement." 

Yes. There also were powerful outpourings of the spirit. My business partner was very good friends with the person who recorded the notes from he meeting and there were many aspects that go beyond what most people are familiar with, but which it'd be inappropriate of me to speak of. 

My point was more just that not all revelations are dictations from God either directly or indirectly. It's true those sometimes do happen. And as I mentioned, I think they remain common in the Church despite claims they are not. But they're hardly the only way revelation comes. 

[strappinglad]

36 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I wonder what Zion people will flee to. 

Missouri .... Lord help us !

Suppose the Church started a new media program in which the message was to " REPENT " of our pride and materialism etc. To stop breaking the Sabbath, to love one another, to stop gossiping and contending with our neighbors etc. Would we increase our membership or decrease it? That is actually our call from the Lord, to preach repentance . I suspect if we were to do this , persecution would increase dramatically. We sort of do such preaching but only amongst ourselves.       If we were to sow such a wind to the world directly, the tornados in OK would be dust devils in comparison.

[california boy]

12 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Note that how these are viewed will vary by group. The country is still very much divided over these issues. Certainly among the "elites" of the more intellectual college crowd Mormons are viewed askew. But let's be honest. They were before too. They just changed what they're upset over. Likewise among other Christians we're not seen as Christian still. According to the 2012 Pew study only 51% said Mormons were Christian. I doubt that's changed much. Pew also finds we're viewed fairly neutrally - again likely in part due to more secular views of Mormons but also due to Evangelical views. 

Again to say the Mormon Moment was squandered requires expectations that I think were never very realistic.

You do realize that the Mormon church is at the very bottom of all churches except Muslins. Hardly something to boast about

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

You do realize that the Mormon church is at the very bottom of all churches except Muslins. Hardly something to boast about

John 15:19-20.  Just sayin'!  

Edited May 20, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

Of course the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has not peaked in terms of active influence.  (After all, we still have a millennium to go ... )

[flameburns623]

I think we are in a cycle of plateau and consolidation. And, I emphasize this can well prove to be part of a natural cycle of long-term growth. Predicting long term trends from a few years sampling is sort of like denying or asserting climate change based upon the last two or three winters.

Religion has always been robust in America. One suspects that as the Millennials mature, many of the New Atheists and "spiritual/not religious" will find a religion. I do wonder if computers and technology won't make even more dramatic changes in how we "church" than simply providing a keen little Library of materials.

However, I agree that poor decisions and mismanagement could also launch  the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints into a different cycle, a cycle of decline. 

Some suggest those mistakes have already occurred, that there is a lot of troubling information about Mormonism which leadership should have come to grips with two generations or so ago; and, having confronted such issues intellectually,  they ought have been more transparent with rank and file members.

The thinking  is that in an Internet age, not only is the difficult information readily discoverable, but that it has emerged and will continue to emerge that leaders have not been forthcoming.

The time for the Church Essays, by this view, was in the early days of the Tanners and of The Godmakers: by the Eighties and Nineties,  the Church Essay materials, and the sort of material coming forth in the Joseph Smith Papers project should have been incorporated into the Church curriculum. It should already have been mainstreamed into our culture. 

The reluctance to take early positive steps to address tough questions and messy history, the aggressive use of church authority to penalize those who spoke up, it is being argued, is breeding and will breed cynicism and doubt about leadership. Not the thorny issues themselves, but the erosion of faith in our General Authorities, owing to their own intransigence,  is what may well sing our Swan Song in the LDS Church, per said critics. 

It is the inevitable coming crises of trust in leadership which, I understand  is being argued, which will really undermine our growth and cost the Church dearly in membership. See the following:

http://religiondispatches.org/churches-can-no-longer-hide-the-truth-daniel-dennett-on-the-new-transparency/

http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/5196148-155/trust-gap-hounds-the-mormon-church

I am not certain I concur with the above analysis. 

I do agree the Internet Age is changing the social order. But it is changing that order EVERYWHERE, not just in the LDS Church or in religious bodies generally.

I think folks will be adjusting to the Wikileaks culture in business,  government, academia, the crimiinal justice system, and everywhere else for a long time. Privacy as we have always known it is an endangered species.

I don't think the Church will be singled out as a special target for suspicion. We're going to go through a period of getting increasingly jaded about how top/down leadership comes to make decisions on behalf of others.

Which may well compel the "flattening" of traditional, highly vertical, leadership structures. Including vertical Church strctures? Perhaps.

Looking backward: at nearly the time that Fawn Brodie and Gerald and Sandra Tanner began revealing messy issues with Mormonism,  an entire wing of Christianity was engaged in an experiment with openness and transparency.

Mainstream denominations,  Protestants and Catholics, spent a decade being "Honest To God", in "aggiornamento". Radical theologies of the Death of God, experiments in worship, "renewal" and "relevance" were attempted 

It cost them dearly. Mainstream denominations went into a sharp decline, from which they have never fully recovered.  To the contrary, they are continuing to hemorrhage membership.

Meanwhile, conservative Christian bodies undertook different tactics. Neo-Evangelicals created their own system of colleges and universities,  built up ministries of apologetics and explication of their faith, and invested energy in trying to hold on to their youth and young adults.

And: they drove their liberals away, or else departed themselves from organizations over which liberals and progressives had too dominant a hand. 

It was a strategy which worked. (And is still working, at least better than anything the mainstream denominations are doing).

Whole books were written on Why Conservative Churches Are Growing. Many Evangelicals experienced growth spurts very similar to those encountered by the CoJCoLDS.  (And, apparently, similar shenanigans with 'basketball baptisms' and such). 

It appears to me that the General Authorities, (with or without the inspiration of the Holy Ghost,  as one chooses to believe), appropriated elements of the success of Evangelicals,  paired with certain successful business practices. These positioned Mormonism for very healthy growth for many years. 

One can overstate the degree to which advanced age diminishes a person's suppleness of mind and willingness to make deep changes. However, I am going to venture to guess that as the inter-war generation of General Authorities is replaced by Boomers, we may see some dramatic changes yet in the Church.

God is still speaking,  to hoist a slogan from another denomination, and the Baby Boom generation underwent some of the most significant adjustments ever. Such a generation, once holding the reins,  may well prime the LDS Church for another sustained period of growth.  

My thoughts, anyhow. 

Edited May 20, 2017 by flameburns623

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Do you mean "or" between those terms or "and" as you wrote?

No, the serial and is adequate.

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Of course the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has not peaked in terms of active influence.  (After all, we still have a millennium to go ... )

The Church of the Millennium will not likely be the CoJCoLDS.
It will eventually be replaced by the Church of the Firstborn and a theocratic priesthood rule.  After all, Christ will rule and reign personally and an earthly legally incorporated Church won't be a necessity.

[RevTestament]

26 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The Church of the Millennium will not likely be the CoJCoLDS.
It will eventually be replaced by the Church of the Firstborn and a theocratic priesthood rule.  After all, Christ will rule and reign personally and an earthly legally incorporated Church won't be a necessity.

It will be the end of "Mormonism" as we know it. Some closely held beliefs will be gone, but by the same means the image will start to be destroyed. It is not a bad time for believers for they shall see their God, and be vindicated.

Quote

After all, Christ will rule and reign personally and an earthly legally incorporated Church won't be a necessity.

If by "personally" you mean by His voice, I agree, but He won't be walking around in the Church as its president. But He will step in to personally guide the Church through some difficult transitional times.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

If by "personally" you mean by His voice, I agree, but He won't be walking around in the Church as its president. But He will step in to personally guide the Church through some difficult transitional times.

He will literally be dwelling on earth during the Millennium, ruling over us as his Church of the Firstborn.  So no, I don't mean by his voice when speaking of the Millennial period.  I mean literally ruling and reigning on the earth.

• D&C 29:11 For I will reveal myself from heaven with power and great glory, with all the hosts thereof, and dwell in righteousness with men on earth a thousand years, and the wicked shall not stand.
• D&C 43:29 For in mine own due time will I come upon the earth in judgment, and my people shall be redeemed and shall reign with me on earth.
• D&C 1:36 And also the Lord shall have power over his saints, and shall reign in their midst, and shall come down in judgment upon Idumea, or the world.
• 10th AoF 10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
• "The Savior will return to the earth in power and great glory to reign personally during a millennium of righteousness and peace." - Dallin H. Oaks - Ensign May 2004

 

Edited May 20, 2017 by JLHPROF

[why me]

On 18.5.2017 at 5:51 PM, Five Solas said:

 

 

What do you think?  Has Mormonism peaked?  Any will LDS really care if it has?

--Erik

______________________________________________

You left
Your tired family grieving
And you think they're sad because you're leaving
But did you see Jealousy in the eyes
Of the ones who had to stay behind?

--The Smiths "London"

I don't think so. However, there is at least one generation that will suffer in membership. The late 20 somethings and the 30 somethings will have problems with their membership because of church history and for things that were not stressed and yet, put forth by critics to claim that the church has hidden facts. Now that the  church has caught up with the critics and has implemented changes to teaching guides etc, the church will be back on track to increase its membership.

[why me]

6 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

Some suggest those mistakes have already occurred, that there is a lot of troubling information about Mormonism which leadership should have come to grips with two generations or so ago; and, having confronted such issues intellectually,  they ought have been more transparent with rank and file members.

The thinking  is that in an Internet age, not only is the difficult information readily discoverable, but that it has emerged and will continue to emerge that leaders have not been forthcoming.

 

It is rather fashionable to attack christianity. Mormonism is no exception. Many christians have lost faith because of the attacks against it. However, there is one religion that gains in strength: islam. One can see devout muslims on the streets of europe, espeically in Britian. Why is islam gaining in strength? Because it is not under such intense critique as christianity is. Maybe people are afraid to give islam a critique. Nor are people putting the Quran under an intense critique. One can not say this for the bible or book of mormon. In a few decades if the situation does not change, one will see an islamic europe. And then, we will see what will happen to mormons who believe in joseph smith as prophet. Who would believe that a religion that requires women to be covered from the head to the feet would be getting a free pass. Poor mormons had the women wear pants movement beause of the criticism of female dress in church. It is quite amazing.

So, as christianity becomes weaker and Islam gains in strength, we should hope for a mormon revival and a christian revival in Europe and inside other christian countries.

Edited May 20, 2017 by why me

[Kenngo1969]

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

The Church of the Millennium will not likely be the CoJCoLDS.
It will eventually be replaced by the Church of the Firstborn and a theocratic priesthood rule.  After all, Christ will rule and reign personally and an earthly legally incorporated Church won't be a necessity.

That may well be true, but if the mission of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is to prepare a people to receive Christ at His Second Coming, even if the Church eventually will be supplanted by Christ's Kingdom on the earth, that hardly makes said church superfluous before the formation of said Kingdom, N'est ces pas?

[JLHPROF]

17 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

That may well be true, but if the mission of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is to prepare a people to receive Christ at His Second Coming, even if the Church eventually will be supplanted by Christ's Kingdom on the earth, that hardly makes said church superfluous before the formation of said Kingdom, N'est ces pas?

Of course.
But the CoJCoLDS clearly doesn't have "Millennium to go".  It has however long until Christ returns and takes over.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Of course.
But the CoJCoLDS clearly doesn't have "Millennium to go".  It has however long until Christ returns and takes over.

I agree with your implication that anyone who has ever lived on the earth who has ever held Priesthood keys will surrender them to Christ (if he hasn't already), and about Christ's preeminence as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. I suppose if you want to view the Church and Kingdom of God, respectively, as separate entities, and ne'er the twain shall meet, that's your prerogative. I don't know that it makes much difference, though, since, as I believe we agree, the one will be subsumed into the other.  If the Church of Jesus Christ doesn't prepare a people to meet Christ at His Coming, I don't see much point to its existence.  Beyond that, I don't know that it's much more than a discussion about semantics.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I agree with your implication that anyone who has ever lived on the earth who has ever held Priesthood keys will surrender them to Christ (if he hasn't already), and about Christ's preeminence as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. I suppose if you want to view the Church and Kingdom of God, respectively, as separate entities, and ne'er the twain shall meet, that's your prerogative. I don't know that it makes much difference, though, since, as I believe we agree, the one will be subsumed into the other.  If the Church of Jesus Christ doesn't prepare a people to meet Christ at His Coming, I don't see much point to its existence.  Beyond that, I don't know that it's much more than a discussion about semantics.

I prefer to identify them as separate entities because saying the Church will be the .Kingdom of .God throughout eternity makes it appear as if we think the Church today is the final form of the Kingdom of God or is identical to the heavenly Church of the Firstborn, etc.

I think much like everything else in life, the eternal kingdom will be almost unrecognizable as the ideal of the organization we have today.

[Avatar4321]

I see us poised to grow exponentially as the world gets worse

[RevTestament]

9 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

He will literally be dwelling on earth during the Millennium, ruling over us as his Church of the Firstborn.  So no, I don't mean by his voice when speaking of the Millennial period.  I mean literally ruling and reigning on the earth.

• D&C 29:11 For I will reveal myself from heaven with power and great glory, with all the hosts thereof, and dwell in righteousness with men on earth a thousand years, and the wicked shall not stand.
• D&C 43:29 For in mine own due time will I come upon the earth in judgment, and my people shall be redeemed and shall reign with me on earth.
• D&C 1:36 And also the Lord shall have power over his saints, and shall reign in their midst, and shall come down in judgment upon Idumea, or the world.
• 10th AoF 10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
• "The Savior will return to the earth in power and great glory to reign personally during a millennium of righteousness and peace." - Dallin H. Oaks - Ensign May 2004

Nope. If He is speaking to the president of the Church whenever he asks for guidance, is that ruling personally? Yes. If He were actually here, everyone would convert - end of story. That just doesn't happen. Here is the beginning of the millennium - the millennium starts with a resurrection/translation right?

D&C 88:

94 And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood—she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea—behold, she is the tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it.

95 And there shall be silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled;

96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him.

97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—

98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.

No mention of Christ leaving heaven to come to earth... in fact it says those resurrected will return with Him later. The Church may as well start learning this now.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Nope. If He is speaking to the president of the Church whenever he asks for guidance, is that ruling personally? Yes. If He were actually here, everyone would convert - end of story. That just doesn't happen. Here is the beginning of the millennium - the millennium starts with a resurrection/translation right?

D&C 88:

94 And another angel shall sound his trump, saying: That great church, the mother of abominations, that made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, that persecuteth the saints of God, that shed their blood—she who sitteth upon many waters, and upon the islands of the sea—behold, she is the tares of the earth; she is bound in bundles; her bands are made strong, no man can loose them; therefore, she is ready to be burned. And he shall sound his trump both long and loud, and all nations shall hear it.

95 And there shall be silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled;

96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him.

97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—

98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.

No mention of Christ leaving heaven to come to earth... in fact it says those resurrected will return with Him later. The Church may as well start learning this now.

Well, I'm glad you know better than Joseph did.  Think I'll stick with him anyway and not stretch the meanings of dwell and personally to mean revelation and through a prophet.

[Bernard Gui]

On 5/18/2017 at 7:51 AM, Five Solas said:

Got back home last Sunday after 8 days in London, England, celebrating my 10-year wedding anniversary with my wife.  Our three kiddos stayed at home with her parents—which was awfully generous of them.  (Other guys may complain about their in-laws, but not I.)  It was a great trip, perfect walking weather, peak tourist season not yet started. 

We stayed at The Grosvenor adjacent to Victoria Station, which meant we had pretty near the whole city within ~ 30 minutes via the Underground (and Buckingham Palace within a six minute walk).  And I’ll share one small observation with the board for any discussion:

Aberrant theology notwithstanding, the Jehovah’s Witnesses work pretty dang hard.  

A number of times we saw them working the street.  And unlike Seattle where they will occasionally occupy a corner & smile gently at passers-by—here they seemed to be anxiously engaged with the vast diversity of humanity that occupies greater London.  Yes, we saw a lot of old churches and even a new one that could have been an Acts 29 plant.  But in all our time, we never once saw any LDS missionaries. 

Recently there was a thread about religious persecution in contemporary Russia.  And this has hit the JW’s hard—because they’ve worked vigorously to establish themselves after the fall of the Soviet Union and have built quite a presence (~100K active worshipers in Russia).   But on that same thread, we couldn’t even figure out how many LDS stakes there are today in Russia (somewhere between zero and three).  Some other stats were tossed about along with an LDS “Locator” app which, among other things, pointed the user to what could have been a boarded-up McDonald's.  After nearly three decades since the fall, LDS here don’t know or seem to care (but a few certainly enjoyed discussing/debating political aspects of Russia).  It’s a stunning contrast to all the fevered speculation when I was growing up (70’s – 80’s) about the missionary/membership opportunity for the LDS Church if Communism were to fall. 

I realize it’s all anecdotal, and with a life-expectancy assumption of 110 for lost members, we can expect the LDS Church to continue to claim modest membership growth into the foreseeable future (loosing track of people makes *much* better numbers than knowing who actually dies or quits). 

The question I have is this: Have we entered a period of retreat and retrenchment for the LDS Church where the focus will shift more to Utah and adjacent states (plus perhaps a few parts of the “third world” where record keeping and independent verification of membership will conveniently not be possible).  Even at the national level, we appear to see an example of retrenchment with BYU’s divorce from USAF ROTC.  And on the front page we have a thread about whether “slowing growth” makes any difference to the LDS Church and its adherents.  And again, the LDS here don’t seem terribly interested or concerned. 

What do you think?  Has Mormonism peaked?  Any will LDS really care if it has?

--Erik

______________________________________________

You left
Your tired family grieving
And you think they're sad because you're leaving
But did you see Jealousy in the eyes
Of the ones who had to stay behind?

--The Smiths "London"

Are you implying that the Church should be growing exponentially and any indication that it is not has some sort of dire message? If so, you should consider the words of the Book of Mormon that the numbers of the faithful in the last days will be few. If it were my church, I might be concerned, but since it is the Church of Jesus Christ, I will defer to His concerns and follow as He directs. Why should we be concerned? Is there something inherently more true about large numbers of adherents? Reminds me of Terry Pratchett's book "Small Gods" where a god's power is determined by how many believers he/she/it has. Poor turtle god only had one.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Stargazer]

On 5/18/2017 at 8:11 AM, The Nehor said:

And I served my mission in England. JWs were everywhere. In some areas we started out with "Hi, we are not the Jehovah's Witnesses" as that line decreased the number of doors quickly shut in our face by an appreciable margin.

Had similar experiences in Germany.  We would be tracting merrily along and getting more-or-less pleasant "No thanks", "Sorry I don't have time", "Not interested, thanks!", and even "Come back later!".  But occasionally we'd get a run of door-slamming and immediate rudeness upon the door opening, whereupon we would ask the first person who would give us time to do so: "Have the Jehovahs Witnesses been by here recently?"  To which the answer was invariably Yes!  Whereupon we would move to a different area because they had clearly thrown that area into disarray.  I don't know if that was because they were overaggressive, or just the residents had had their fill of religious doorknockers with the first visit.  I think the former, but I couldn't be sure.

On the other hand, whenever we tracted out JWs we found them friendly and kind to us, almost invariably.  Some of them would even invite us in for a brief discussion.  In my last city my companionship lived in two rooms we rented from a JW couple.  They were good to us.  It was during that time that Harold B Lee passed away, and they kindly brought us the newspaper with the announcement of this, giving us condolences for the loss.  

I confess I have a degree of good feeling towards the Jehovah's Witnesses, largely from my missionary experiences.

[RevTestament]

39 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Well, I'm glad you know better than Joseph did.  Think I'll stick with him anyway and not stretch the meanings of dwell and personally to mean revelation and through a prophet.

I don't need to know better than Joseph did. I have scripture.

[probablyHagoth7]

 

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

On the other hand, whenever we tracted out JWs we found them friendly and kind to us, almost invariably.  Some of them would even invite us in for a brief discussion.  In my last city my companionship lived in two rooms we rented from a JW couple.  They were good to us...,

Ditto.

And one Jehovah's Witness had such a profound impact on me that it still resonates today. The first thing I ever generated for public consumption was written in memory of him...an outgrowth of having rubbed shoulders with him and people like him. Extremely grateful for the privilege to have known people like that.

In a nation where about 97% of the people were Lutheran, it seems like I sat with about as many who were either Jehovah's Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventists as I did with Lutherans. 

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I confess I have a degree of good feeling towards the Jehovah's Witnesses, largely from my missionary experiences.

Ditto.

In my new abode, one family has been the kindest and friendliest....by a factor of at least 10. The first neighbor to extend a hand of friendship. The first to be there to help lift something heavy. And the only family to invite mine to play....something which happens often. 

And, they are Jehovah's Witnesses. When he said that, I mentioned the respect I gained for his people/faith back then.  

A kind gesture leaves a smile that lasts a long time. I *really* need to get better at that. Gonna ask soon if I might attend as a visitor one day.

Edited May 21, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[flameburns623]

58 minutes ago, probablyHagoth7 said:

 

Ditto.

And one Jehovah's Witness had such a profound impact on me that it still resonates today. The first thing I ever generated for public consumption was written in memory of him...an outgrowth of having rubbed shoulders with him and people like him. Extremely grateful for the privilege to have known people like that.

In a nation where about 97% of the people were Lutheran, it seems like I sat with about as many who were either Jehovah's Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventists as I did with Lutherans. 

Ditto.

In my new abode, one family has been the kindest and friendliest....by a factor of at least 10. The first neighbor to extend a hand of friendship. The first to be there to help lift something heavy. And the only family to invite mine to play....something which happens often. 

And, they are Jehovah's Witnesses. When he said that, I mentioned the respect I gained for his people/faith back then.  

A kind gesture leaves a smile that lasts a long time. I *really* need to get better at that. Gonna ask soon if I might attend as a visitor one day.

Kingdom Halls, like LDS Meeting-houses, are places which encourage visitors.

The service structure is a bit unusual: about an hour spent in a book study, in a classroom setting;  followed by an hour of congregational worship and Scripture study. They often have microphones on sticks, allowing congregants to answer questions from their seats. 

There are discreet boxes in the foyer for contributions: no plate is passed for donations. Coffee and donuts sometimes follow the meetings, allowing congregants to mix and mingle. However,  two or three congregations often share a Kingdom Hall, so the amount of loitering may be limited. 

From their website:

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/meetings/

Edited May 21, 2017 by flameburns623

[why me]

17 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

I see us poised to grow exponentially as the world gets worse

The church will grow when the lds church takes back its narrative from the critics. They are beginning to do this. But there is still a way to go. The spirit must be allowed to do its work. At this moment the internet is interferring with the spirit.