Free Byu?

[sethpayne]

Many colleges use honor codes. The student makes a covenant to keep it. When the code is broken and an endorsing authority knows about it, the student is expelled.

 

I think that an inconsistency is being pointed out that ex-members are treated differently than never-members.  IMO, if an ex-member gets an endorsement and they agree to abide the honor code, they should be able to remain at BYU.  I see no reasonable justification for treating a former Church member differently than someone who has never joined.

[Avatar4321]

Resignation, yes. Faith crisis, not necessarily.

having faith is always a choice. Why do you think the Lord is always inviting us to have faith if it's something we have no control over?

even if our faith is so small that we only have the desire to believe it's enough to plant the seed.

there are consequences for our choices, no matter how unfair some people seem to think they are.

[Avatar4321]

Of course the original is perfectly accurate as well as it does not contain promises about academic credit or the right to attend a school no matter what your faith is or a promise that conversions from or to any faith will not include consequences. Not sure why you read all that into it.

If you want a world where choices do not matter you signed up for the wrong planet.

and the wrong plan. It was the other plan that wanted no consequence for actions.

[Pahoran]

I think that an inconsistency is being pointed out that ex-members are treated differently than never-members.  IMO, if an ex-member gets an endorsement and they agree to abide the honor code, they should be able to remain at BYU.  I see no reasonable justification for treating a former Church member differently than someone who has never joined.

 

You are, of course, at all times entitled to your opinion.

 

Given that the Church is under no obligation to provide anyone at all with a university education; and

Given that the Church subsidises the cost of running BYU; and

Given that the source of that subsidy is the tithes and offerings of the members;

 

The Church is therefore entirely at liberty to run BYU in the way that it sees as most closely aligning with its mission.

 

I see no reasonable justification for expecting it to provide either a soft landing or access to faithful young adults, as a potential recruiting pool, to apostates or generic malcontents.

Regards,

Pahoran

[webbles]

I think that an inconsistency is being pointed out that ex-members are treated differently than never-members.  IMO, if an ex-member gets an endorsement and they agree to abide the honor code, they should be able to remain at BYU.  I see no reasonable justification for treating a former Church member differently than someone who has never joined.

I'm wondering if there really is an inconsistency.  Both members and non-members require an endorsement so there isn't an inconsistency there.  The real question what happens to an individual who leaves their faith.  If a Baptist decided to go to BYU and during the 4 years, he/she has a faith crisis and leaves the Baptist faith (and doesn't join the church) what happens?  Is he/she still able to attend BYU?  How does this person get their endorsement?  Is there any difference between this scenario and one of a member who leaves the faith because of a faith crisis?

[Analytics]

You are, of course, at all times entitled to your opinion.

 

Given that the Church is under no obligation to provide anyone at all with a university education; and

Given that the Church subsidises the cost of running BYU; and

Given that the source of that subsidy is the tithes and offerings of the members;

 

The Church is therefore entirely at liberty to run BYU in the way that it sees as most closely aligning with its mission.

 

For the record, I agree.  If the Church wants to provide a subset of BYU students with a strong incentive to be dishonest about their sincere religious convictions, that is its prerogative.

[Sleeper Cell]

I think that an inconsistency is being pointed out that ex-members are treated differently than never-members.  IMO, if an ex-member gets an endorsement and they agree to abide the honor code, they should be able to remain at BYU.  I see no reasonable justification for treating a former Church member differently than someone who has never joined.

 

 

“But unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required,” for starters.

[Avatar4321]

Tell me, if they are insincere and lying about their convictions, why would they go to byu?

[Avatar4321]

I think that an inconsistency is being pointed out that ex-members are treated differently than never-members.  IMO, if an ex-member gets an endorsement and they agree to abide the honor code, they should be able to remain at BYU.  I see no reasonable justification for treating a former Church member differently than someone who has never joined.

read the Book of Mormon. Mormon talks about the difference between non members and dissenters.

[Sleeper Cell]

Tell me, if they are insincere and lying about their convictions, why would they go to byu?

 

And if they had integrity, why would it be an “impossible situation” for them  to choose between their integrity and material gain?  Difficult?  Sure.  But impossible? 

 

But a group of current and former students is concerned about implications for students who find themselves transitioning away from belief in the church while still enrolled at a church-owned school. It creates, they argue, an impossible situation where students are seemingly forced to choose between their integrity and the education they have worked and payed for.

 

[emarkp]

Has no one heard of a college transfer? They happen all the time.

[Kenngo1969]

Has no one heard of a college transfer? They happen all the time.

Yep, they do; but these folks, it seems, want to "have their cake, and eat it, too."

[mormonnewb]

Yep, they do; but these folks, it seems, want to "have their cake, and eat it, too."

No, they simply want the cake they have already baked.

Why do so many of you feel so offended that someone would choose another religion that you'd want to punish them with the forfeiture of their hard work? Do you think that Notre Dame should expel any of its students that convert to Mormonism? Of course not. You want people to be free to come to the "true" Church. So why wouldn't you want "the Lord's university" to be as magnanimous and open to agency as one of the "imposter" churches?

Edited November 18, 2014 by mormonnewb

[Bernard Gui]

A judge in Isreal is not the same thing as a gatekeeper for attendance at BYU.

 

Nothing in the continuing endorsement process prohibits a bishop from exercising his discretion to issue an endorsement in spite of a student's worthiness issues, such a word of wisdom or morality problem.  In fact, the process can be seen more of an opportunity to have a heart to heart converstation with a student than it is about determining whether one can or cannot attend BYU.  I think it's reasonable for a bishop, as a judge in Isreal, to not want the process to interfere with true repentance.  A bishop that treats the process as a pass/fail test can do a disservice to the student's spiritual health.  A bishop taking this approach is not necessarily neglecting his duty as a judge in Israel; it's an approach that can be consistent with fulfilling that duty and role.

I will have to respectfully disagree. The First Presidency and members of Quorum of the Twelve (the Board of Trustees for BYU) approved the endorsement process and assigned the task to the persons who judge the worthiness of the congregation....the common judge in Israel, ie., the bishop of the ward and the president of the stake in which the applicant resides. Two witnesses are required on the endorsement. Not being truthful on the application is dishonest, does no one a favor, and betrays the trust placed in him by the Board of Trustees. Dishonesty, no matter the justification, is not consistent with fulfilling the calling of a bishop or a stake president. The same is true for a prospective missionary, a person applying for Church employment, callings in the Church. 

 

 

ECCLESIASTICAL ENDORSEMENT

The Board of Trustees of BYU-Idaho requires every student attending the university to have an annual ecclesiastical endorsement from the bishop of the ward in which he or she resides. The endorsement fosters communication between students and ecclesiastical leaders. It gives bishops an opportunity to review a student’s understanding of and commitment to the Honor Code.

The bishop verifies the following:

• If LDS, the student is in full fellowship in the Church
• The student lives a chaste and virtuous life, including avoidance of pornography, abstinence from sexual relations outside of marriage, and abstinence from homosexual behavior
• The student lives the Word of Wisdom by abstaining from alcoholic beverages, tobacco, coffee, tea, and other harmful substances
• The student demonstrates appropriate and consistent church activity
• The student is honest

The student verifies he or she is striving to live the Honor Code. Students will renew their endorsement during the first semester of their assigned track and will be notified by email.

 

Edited November 18, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

No, they simply want the cake they have already baked.

Why do so many of you feel so offended that someone would choose another religion that you'd want to punish them with the forfeiture of their hard work? Do you think that Notre Dame should expel any of its students that convert to Mormonism? Of course not. You want people to be free to come to the "true" Church. So why wouldn't you want "the Lord's university" to be as magnanimous and open to agency as one of the "imposter" churches?

They do not forfeit their hard work. They may transfer to another institution that better suits their newly found faith or lack thereof. Students do it all the time.

Sister Gui cobbled together her teaching degree with credits from 5 different schools. We have a friend who is employed as a writer for the LDS magazines. She no longer believes in the Church. Should she forfeit her career? Notre Dame can do as Notre Dame wishes.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[toon]

I will have to respectfully disagree. The First Presidency and members of Quorum of the Twelve (the Board of Trustees for BYU) approved the endorsement process and assigned the task to the persons who judge the worthiness of the congregation....the common judge in Israel, ie., the bishop of the ward and the president of the stake in which the applicant resides. Two witnesses are required on the endorsement. Not being truthful on the application is dishonest, does no one a favor, and betrays the trust placed in him by the Board of Trustees. Dishonesty, no matter the justification, is not consistent with fulfilling the calling of a bishop or a stake president. The same is true for a prospective missionary, a person applying for Church employment, callings in the Church.

I have no idea if the current stated goal and purpose of the endorsement for BYU-I is the se as it was for BYU in the 80s

Still, to characterize what a Bishop operating under what he that was his inspiration as dishonesty is interpreting it in the worst possible light. An uncharitable interpretation.

I'll note that one goal is to foster communication between students and their ecclesiastical leaders. Addicting an additional threat or consequence to a confession may in some, perhaps many, cases work against that goal. That he signed the endorsement didn't mean he still didn't work with the student and perhaps in some cases recommend that the student voluntarily take some steps as part of the repentance process

I suspect higher authorities didn't feel too betrayed by this approach, as the following year he was called as a president of a BYU stake.

[toon]

I will have to respectfully disagree. The First Presidency and members of Quorum of the Twelve (the Board of Trustees for BYU) approved the endorsement process and assigned the task to the persons who judge the worthiness of the congregation....the common judge in Israel, ie., the bishop of the ward and the president of the stake in which the applicant resides. Two witnesses are required on the endorsement. Not being truthful on the application is dishonest, does no one a favor, and betrays the trust placed in him by the Board of Trustees. Dishonesty, no matter the justification, is not consistent with fulfilling the calling of a bishop or a stake president. The same is true for a prospective missionary, a person applying for Church employment, callings in the Church.

I have no idea if the current stated goal and purpose of the endorsement for BYU-I is the se as it was for BYU in the 80s

Still, to characterize what a Bishop operating under what he that was his inspiration as dishonesty is interpreting it in the worst possible light. An uncharitable interpretation.

I'll note that one goal is to foster communication between students and their ecclesiastical leaders. Addicting an additional threat or consequence to a confession may in some, perhaps many, cases work against that goal. That he signed the endorsement didn't mean he still didn't work with the student and perhaps in some cases recommend that the student voluntarily take some steps as part of the repentance process

I suspect higher authorities didn't feel too betrayed by this approach, as the following year he was called as a president of a BYU stake.

[Robert F. Smith]

Huh?

UCLA a "very serious" school... Well, yes, I guess it can be considered among the top univs...  But I don't get how you think that BYU isn't a serious school... Their J. Reuben Clark Law School is right up there with Ivy League schools... in the top five at one point.  The School of Business is recognized for its programs..

.

I thought we were discussing undergraduate education.  Hugh Nibley, who received his BA summa cum laude at UCLA, used to invidiously compare the questions asked by UCLA students with the lack of questions from BYU students.  There is no question of the rigor at UCLA, and its absence at many other schools.  Having studied at UCLA (100 units) and many other schools, including BYU (I have my BA from there), I can personally testify to that fact.

 

Because of the generosity of some of BYU Alumni... Marriott, Huntsman, and others, BYU has some cutting edge technology available compared to other universities (I recall that a few years ago one alumnus donated a verrry expensive and first rate computer (only 1 of 3 in the U.S.)  The Harold B. Lee Library with donations from the Marriotts, etc is becoming competitive with top universities..

There are indeed some aspects of BYU which are commendable, but very uneven and unpredictable:  Donations of valuable collections can easily be broken up and discarded, and there is a lack of institutional memory in some areas which means that previous efforts and plans are suddenly deleted simply because a pharaoh arose who didn't know Joseph.  I have seen some of that firsthand.  Many gains made are squandered, and many precious professors emeriti are treated shabbily instead of being continually valued.  I can think of several of my heroes who were basically kicked off campus, even though they were still producing tremendous research.  I interpret such actions as a devaluing of the LDS religion and faithlessness on the part of powerful administrators -- who clearly do not know what real education is.

.

I may be biased, but I attended BYU in 1959-60 and remember when it was where LDS kids went to find spouses... and over the years since then the standards have been rising year after year in a quest for excellence... It is a much different university today than it was in my day... that's for sure.  I've not paid attention to the research arm of BYU, if any, so I'm not able to compare, but do know that those programs they do have are well respected...................................................................................................

Yes, Cal, things were far different when you and I went to BYU:  Anyone could go there, with or without a beard, and no ecclesiastical endorsement was required.  The honor code was taken seriously, and I know of a Jewish Rabbi who got his PhD there in the 60s, and was permitted the exception of drinking qiddush wine.  He also taught Hebrew classes.  He told me that, once the students understood that he wasn't going to convert to Mormonism, things were just fine.

 

I loved BYU, and it turned out not to be the rural backwater I thought it might be.  My professors got their graduate degrees from Brown, Harvard, etc.  One even attended the University of Moscow for awhile (not in Idaho).  People like Eric Hoffer were brought to campus so that we could pick there brains.  My professors urged me to continue asking hard questions.  You are right about the changes there, and not all of them are for the better.  I live in Provo and watch it first hand.

[CV75]

I think that an inconsistency is being pointed out that ex-members are treated differently than never-members.  IMO, if an ex-member gets an endorsement and they agree to abide the honor code, they should be able to remain at BYU.  I see no reasonable justification for treating a former Church member differently than someone who has never joined.

I think ex-members and in some cases ex-convicts that retain membership give up consideration for a number of Church callings even when fellowshipped or re-baptized, so the ecclesiastical endorsement is not inconsistent with that principle or practice. In this case, a student can be viewed as a kind of calling or assignment (in the case on non-members).

[HappyJackWagon]

Who is paying the bills? It is a Church sponsored school.

 

The individual and if they receive a member discount they are subsidized by the church. If they are not a member they are not subsidized by the church.

 

 

Yes BYU should have such a policy.

 

The policy creates an atmosphere of fear for those experiencing doubts. The policy could easily be changed and if those who choose to no longer identify as LDS wish to remain they could do so with a simple change to paying non LDS tuition.

 

 

No it does not fly in the face of the entire concept of "education". 

 

But it does fly in the face of religious freedom and academic freedom. We encourage people to change their faith to LDS but will not allow them to change it from LDS. Students can grow a great deal from the time they sign an honor code as an 18 year old. It is unfortunate that they would be penalized with a forced transfer, losing many credit hours of work because they have serious doubts or choose to affilliate with another church. BYU is accredited to give secular degrees, not religious, ecclesiastical degrees.

 

 

Whether you "allow" your young man or young woman to consider BYU is a matter for you and them to decide.  If you they do not think it would be a good fit then by all means go somewhere else that is.

 

The problem is, they may experience changes in their thinking and belief while at BYU.

[HappyJackWagon]

 

Given that the Church is under no obligation to provide anyone at all with a university education; and

Given that the Church subsidises the cost of running BYU; and

Given that the source of that subsidy is the tithes and offerings of the members;

 

The Church is therefore entirely at liberty to run BYU in the way that it sees as most closely aligning with its mission.

 

I see no reasonable justification for expecting it to provide either a soft landing or access to faithful young adults, as a potential recruiting pool, to apostates or generic malcontents.

Regards,

Pahoran

The church charges more tuition for non-members.

As long as the church wishes to keep BYU accredited it may be in their best interest to reconsider this faith clause of the honor code.

[CV75]

Do you think that Notre Dame should expel any of its students that convert to Mormonism?

It depends on what they want for their honor code.

[HappyJackWagon]

It depends on what they want for their honor code.

No one is arguing about the behaviors someone commits to uphold in the honor code, like law of chastity, wow etc but it is very different to expel a student for his personal religious beliefs. Isn't the church beating a drum of religious freedom right now, and rightly so?

[Kenngo1969]

No, they simply want the cake they have already baked.

Why do so many of you feel so offended that someone would choose another religion that you'd want to punish them with the forfeiture of their hard work? Do you think that Notre Dame should expel any of its students that convert to Mormonism? Of course not. You want people to be free to come to the "true" Church. So why wouldn't you want "the Lord's university" to be as magnanimous and open to agency as one of the "imposter" churches?

Who said anything about "impostor" churches?  And you can think it's unfair, but the fact of the matter is, while non-Mormons who are willing to live the Honor Code and who can meet the entrance requirements are welcome (space permitting), BYU is run by faithful Mormons, primarily for faithful Mormons.  The university can only educate so many students; as has already been pointed out to you, why should a student who no longer fits that bill take the slot of someone else who wants to come to BYU and who, by contrast, has a firm testimony of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ?  As for your agency argument, agency isn't the unfettered freedom to do as one wishes: one is still subject to the consequences of one's choices, which, in the case of someone who no longer believes in the truth claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, will probably mean finding somewhere else to finish his education.  As has also already been pointed out to you, students transfer all the time: again, space permitting, and provided he can meet entrance requirements, even someone who loses his testimony of the Restored Gospel is always welcome at the school to the north.  He would probably feel more comfortable at the latter, anyway.

[CV75]

The policy creates an atmosphere of fear for those experiencing doubts.

Those experiencing doubts are already “afraid” (of something) and so could feel threatened in any pro-Church atmosphere, depending on their level of insecurity, self-confidence and lack of conviction.

 

The policy could easily be changed and if those who choose to no longer identify as LDS wish to remain they could do so with a simple change to paying non LDS tuition.

It’s not about the money; it’s about the honor code and personal integrity and the educational atmosphere BYU is cultivating.

 

Ex-members (and in some cases ex-convicts that retain membership) give up consideration for a number of Church callings and assignments even when fellowshipped or re-baptized. The policy is consistent with that principle and practice. What you are suggesting is like allowing a convicted pedophile to hold an assignment working with children or youth as long as he pays his tithe (could be a very good deal for him, huh!).

 

But it does fly in the face of religious freedom and academic freedom. We encourage people to change their faith to LDS but will not allow them to change it from LDS. Students can grow a great deal from the time they sign an honor code as an 18 year old. It is unfortunate that they would be penalized with a forced transfer, losing many credit hours of work because they have serious doubts or choose to affilliate with another church. BYU is accredited to give secular degrees, not religious, ecclesiastical degrees.

Rather, “We encourage people to change their faith to LDS and do not encourage them to change it from LDS.” This reflects religious and academic freedom by a) putting integrity first; 2) clarifying the consequences of and honoring the choices the students make; and, 3) encouraging (neither compelling nor allowing) people to change their faith.

 

The problem is, they may experience changes in their thinking and belief while at BYU.

Everyone changes and has the right to change—this is religious and educational freedom in action.

Edited November 18, 2014 by CV75