Free Byu?

[HappyJackWagon]

 

This "Free BYU" group doesn't seem to have any current students on it's roster.    

Not exactly. Here's a Mormon Stories podcast about this. There are 5 members of the group, 2 of whom are current students. They choose not to use their real names for fear of being expelled from school for having different religious beliefs. Both are in their senior year and would essentially be dropped back to Sophomore class if they transfer.

 

http://mormonstories.org/free-byu-religious-freedom-and-faith-transition-at-church-schools/

[Alvie J]

For those of you how are interested in this subject I would invite you to read the following university research paper, in hope that it might in some way help the cause…

 

Link: https://www.academia.edu/7892970/The_Mormon_Cipher

 

This is off topic. Do not derail threads.

[pogi]

For those of you how are interested in this subject I would invite you to read the following university research paper, in hope that it might in some way help the cause…

 

Link: https://www.academia.edu/7892970/The_Mormon_Cipher

 

Scrolling through it, it looks like a bunch of numerology, Scrabble games and ancient alphabets.  I would be really curious to hear a brief explanation as to how this applies to BYU policy. 

[Pahoran]

I don't see that requiring people to be active in a faith they don't believe in is helpful to anyone. So the distinction of, they can stay even as non-believers as long as they act like they are, is no real solution.

The solution is for the "entitled" demanders to realise that they're not as entitled as they think they are.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

For those of you how are interested in this subject I would invite you to read the following university research paper, in hope that it might in some way help the cause…

 

Link: https://www.academia.edu/7892970/The_Mormon_Cipher

 

It's a joke, right?

 

Regards,

Pahoran

[carbon dioxide]

Then we probably need to get rid of our 11th article of faith or at least make some revisions to it.  Perhaps, it should now read something like:

 

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may; provided, of course, that such men are not students at BYU who are Mormon, at which point they may only worship according to the dictates of OUR conscience, and if not, we shall scatter their transcripts and earned grades and achievements through the delete function of our student records server.  Thus, sayeth the Provost!

I don't see attending BYU or any other LDS church institution to be a "right" for anyone whether a member or not.  The 11th article of faith is about allowing someone to believe as they want free of persecution.  All people deserve respect regardless of what they believe.  That does not mean that those who believe differently than LDS are still entitled to everything LDS are entitled to like going to the temple.  Should BYU keep an LDS member out because a former member chooses to remain at BYU and occupy a space?  BYU does cap admission numbers so former members would be basically keeping other members out. 

[HappyJackWagon]

The solution is for the "entitled" demanders to realise that they're not as entitled as they think they are.

Regards,

Pahoran

Those darn entitled demanders. Throw them to the lions.

Or everyone can be treated with kindness and respect.

[ERayR]

Then we probably need to get rid of our 11th article of faith or at least make some revisions to it.  Perhaps, it should now read something like:

 

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may; provided, of course, that such men are not students at BYU who are Mormon, at which point they may only worship according to the dictates of OUR conscience, and if not, we shall scatter their transcripts and earned grades and achievements through the delete function of our student records server.  Thus, sayeth the Provost!

 

Much hyperbole and red herring.  Nobody is being denied the right to worship anything or anybody they wish.

[ERayR]

Those darn entitled demanders. Throw them to the lions.

Or everyone can be treated with kindness and respect.

 

Nobody is being thrown to the lions but are merely being held to contractual obligations. 

[mormonnewb]

Nobody is being thrown to the lions but are merely being held to contractual obligations. 

 

For the thousandth time, no one is questioning whether BYU has the "right" to enforce its contract.  We are questioning whether BYU is "right" in insisting on such an obligation in the first place.  It makes me wonder how the story of The Merchant of Venice is viewed in Literature classes at BYU.  I can just imagine the professor explaining, "For centuries, non-Mormons have viewed this play all wrong.  They have vilified Shylock for wanting to take a pound of Antonio's flesh.  However, Shylock was perfectly within his contractual rights to enforce that provision.  If Antonio didn't want to lose a pound of flesh, he shouldn't have guaranteed the loan in the first place.  There were plenty of other lenders Bassanio could have gone to."

 

That being said, we do agree on one point -- I shouldn't send my son to BYU.  Instead, he will attend a UNIVERSITY -- a place where people are free to form new conclusions on the basis of new information.

Edited November 22, 2014 by mormonnewb

[Garden Girl]

 

That being said, we do agree on one point -- I shouldn't send my son to BYU.  Instead, he will attend a UNIVERSITY -- a place where people are free to form new conclusions on the basis of new information.

 

I agree... with hundreds of applicants being turned away from Brigham Young UNIVERSITY because of lack of space, enrollment caps, etc, he'd be taking up a space that could be filled by someone who really wanted to be there... although I do find it ironic that you think he should attend a more liberal university, such as the ones that shout down any voice, i.e., conservative. that dares to disagree with their liberal stance or agenda... or for example refuses to let someone like Condelesa Rice appear on campus as a commencement speaker (which I've seen several times recently by such UNIVERSITIES), etc etc... so much for forming new conclusions or welcoming new information.  That's right, it's better to let your son sit at the feet of the Ward Churchills... which is perfectly fine if that's your choice...

 

GG

Edited November 23, 2014 by Garden Girl

[ERayR]

For the thousandth time, no one is questioning whether BYU has the "right" to enforce its contract.  We are questioning whether BYU is "right" in insisting on such an obligation in the first place.  It makes me wonder how the story of The Merchant of Venice is viewed in Literature classes at BYU.  I can just imagine the professor explaining, "For centuries, non-Mormons have viewed this play all wrong.  They have vilified Shylock for wanting to take a pound of Antonio's flesh.  However, Shylock was perfectly within his contractual rights to enforce that provision.  If Antonio didn't want to lose a pound of flesh, he shouldn't have guaranteed the loan in the first place.  There were plenty of other lenders Bassanio could have gone to."

 

That being said, we do agree on one point -- I shouldn't send my son to BYU.  Instead, he will attend a UNIVERSITY -- a place where people are free to form new conclusions on the basis of new information.

 

Yes they are right.  If one has not learned what contractual agreements are and that they have consequences now would be a good time.  It just might be the best lesson of their college career.  So yes they should.  As has been stated in an earlier post BYU has more applicants than positions.  Everyone of those positions held by someone who no longer honors their contract is a seat that could be occupied by someone who would. 

 

As I said before do not send your son to any college or university that would not be a good fit.

Edited November 22, 2014 by ERayR

[ERayR]

I agree... with hundreds of applicants being turned away from Brigham Young UNIVERSITY because of lack of space, enrollment caps, etc, he'd be taking up a space that could be filled by someone who really wanted to be there... although I do find it ironic that you think he should attend a more liberal university, such as the ones that shout down any voice, i.e., conservative. that dares to disagree with their liberal stance or agenda... or for example refuses to let someone like Condesa Rice appear on campus as a commencement speaker (which I've seen several times recently by such UNIVERSITIES), etc etc... so much for forming new conclusions or welcoming new information.  That's right, it's better to let your son sit at the feet of the Ward Churchills... which is perfectly fine if that's your choice...

 

GG

 

Well said.

[mormonnewb]

I agree... with hundreds of applicants being turned away from Brigham Young UNIVERSITY because of lack of space, enrollment caps, etc, he'd be taking up a space that could be filled by someone who really wanted to be there... although I do find it ironic that you think he should attend a more liberal university, such as the ones that shout down any voice, i.e., conservative. that dares to disagree with their liberal stance or agenda... or for example refuses to let someone like Condelesa Rice appear on campus as a commencement speaker (which I've seen several times recently by such UNIVERSITIES), etc etc... so much for forming new conclusions or welcoming new information. That's right, it's better to let your son sit at the feet of the Ward Churchills... which is perfectly fine if that's your choice...

GG

Can you name one of these liberal institutions that will throw out a student for having conservative beliefs? So, yes, my son might miss the opportunities to hear a few voices on campus (of course, he could always turn on Fox News to get these same views repeatedly). However, what he won't have to do is restart his schooling because he comes to a different conclusion about Mormonism than his classmates.

But, in the end, it is about what makes a good fit for each student. Some are better suited for places of open exploration and others are better suited for academies, like BYA. To each his/her own.

[mormonnewb]

Yes they are right. If one has not learned what contractual agreements are and that they have consequences now would be a good time. It just might be the best lesson of their college career. So yes they should. As has been stated in an earlier post BYU has more applicants than positions. Everyone of those positions held by someone who no longer honors their contract is a seat that could be occupied by someone who would.

As I said before do not send your son to any college or university that would not be a good fit.

Yes, I agree. Life is unfair. I wouldn't have thought that the best place to learn that lesson is at the Lord's Academy, but I'm a newb and all so I have lots to learn.

[The Nehor]

Yes, I agree. Life is unfair. I wouldn't have thought that the best place to learn that lesson is at the Lord's Academy, but I'm a newb and all so I have lots to learn.

Considering the entire earth is the Lord's academy where else should one expect to learn it?

[mormonnewb]

Considering the entire earth is the Lord's academy where else should one expect to learn it?

Touché!

[Garden Girl]

Can you name one of these liberal institutions that will throw out a student for having conservative beliefs?

But, in the end, it is about what makes a good fit for each student.

 

There have been several in the past few months in the news that have protested conservative views being expressed in student gatherings, shouting down those voices, including the university I mentioned (I can't remember which one because there have been similar actions in the news by several) where the students protested having Condalesa Rice as a commencement speaker... the furor was such that she withdrew her name.  Can you imagine not wanting to hear someone as accomplished as Ms. Rice (a concert pianist, a public servant, a sports figure, etc etc). 

I don't know that these institutions would "throw out a student" for having conservative beliefs per se... but that student would be hooted down for expressing them, as has been clearly evident from the news footage. 

I agree, students should attend where they feel a "good fit."  But your snide little reference to BY Academy is not worth commenting on...

 

GG

Edited November 23, 2014 by Garden Girl

[Pahoran]

Those darn entitled demanders. Throw them to the lions.

Or everyone can be treated with kindness and respect.

 

"Throw them to the lions" is your own notion.  It bears no resemblance to any view of mine, and does not follow from anything I wrote.

 

Mind you, perhaps you live in a strange binary world where, to answer "No" to any demand, however unreasonable, is to "throw" the one making the demand "to the lions," while the only possible way to treat such a person "with kindness and respect" is to roll over and give them what they want.

 

If so, then please be aware that I don't live in that world, and have no interest in moving there.

 

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

Not exactly. Here's a Mormon Stories podcast about this. There are 5 members of the group, 2 of whom are current students. They choose not to use their real names for fear of being expelled from school for having different religious beliefs. Both are in their senior year and would essentially be dropped back to Sophomore class if they transfer.

 

http://mormonstories.org/free-byu-religious-freedom-and-faith-transition-at-church-schools/

 

I wonder what that pink cowboy hat could possibly be about...?

 

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

Can you name one of these liberal institutions that will throw out a student for having conservative beliefs? So, yes, my son might miss the opportunities to hear a few voices on campus (of course, he could always turn on Fox News to get these same views repeatedly). However, what he won't have to do is restart his schooling because he comes to a different conclusion about Mormonism than his classmates.

But, in the end, it is about what makes a good fit for each student. Some are better suited for places of open exploration and others are better suited for academies, like BYA. To each his/her own.

 

 

Indeed.  And I suppose, just like every other trendy-leftie who never questions the assumptions of the dominant "culture," you imagine that academia would be much more "diverse" if BYU was exactly like every other university.

 

Is that it?

 

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

For the thousandth time, no one is questioning whether BYU has the "right" to enforce its contract.  We are questioning whether BYU is "right" in insisting on such an obligation in the first place.

While others are questioning whether a little coterie who think themselves "entitled" to have their cake and eat it too, have any "right" to expect to upset everyone else's apple-cart just to suit themselves.

 It makes me wonder how the story of The Merchant of Venice is viewed in Literature classes at BYU.  I can just imagine the professor explaining, "For centuries, non-Mormons have viewed this play all wrong.  They have vilified Shylock for wanting to take a pound of Antonio's flesh.  However, Shylock was perfectly within his contractual rights to enforce that provision.  If Antonio didn't want to lose a pound of flesh, he shouldn't have guaranteed the loan in the first place.  There were plenty of other lenders Bassanio could have gone to."

 

That being said, we do agree on one point -- I shouldn't send my son to BYU.  Instead, he will attend a UNIVERSITY -- a place where people are free to form new conclusions on the basis of new information.

Which absolves you of the terrible risk of having to form new conclusions about BYU on the basis of any new information that he might be able to give you.

Heaven forbid that your opinions should ever be based upon anything other than what you freely choose to "just imagine!"

Regards,

Pahoran

[CV75]

I shouldn't send my son to BYU.

 

he won't have to do is restart his schooling because he comes to a different conclusion about Mormonism than his classmates.

So you have a sense that your son will have a faith crisis, and you are sparing him the bother of expulsion by removing BYU from consideration?

[mormonnewb]

So you have a sense that your son will have a faith crisis, and you are sparing him the bother of expulsion by removing BYU from consideration?

I certainly want him to have the AGENCY to choose whether he wants to be a Mormon.

Likewise, several of the comments from earlier in this thread made clear that BYU is more of an academy than a university. And by academy, I mean it in the sense of West Point, the Naval Academy and Air Force Academy. These prestigious institutions don't claim to be universities because their aim is not to educate students in the classical sense. Their aim is to TRAIN young people to fulfill a certain role as soldiers, sailors, pilots, etc. I think the same can be said of BYU. It's aim is to produce priesthood holders and stay-at-home moms. And while these are certainly are worthy goals, I'm of the opinion that a person can be these things AND still receive an "education" in the classical sense, in which they will be ENCOURAGED to explore different ways of viewing the world and not just to "follow the prophet/provost/professor." Now, if my boy comes to their own conclusion that our leaders are correct, then that is great, but I want the decision not to be influenced by whether he will have to restart his schooling if he decides in the alternative.

Edited November 24, 2014 by mormonnewb

[CV75]

I certainly want him to have the AGENCY to choose whether he wants to be a Mormon.

Likewise, several of the comments from earlier in this thread made clear that BYU is more of an academy than a university. And by academy, I mean it in the sense of West Point, the Naval Academy and Air Force Academy. These prestigious institutions don't claim to be universities because their aim is not to educate students in the classical sense. Their aim is to TRAIN young people to fulfill a certain role as soldiers, sailors, pilots, etc. I think the same can be said of BYU. It's aim is to produce priesthood holders and stay-at-home moms. And while these are certainly are worthy goals, I'm of the opinion that a person can be these things AND still receive an "education" in the classical sense, in which they will be ENCOURAGED to explore different ways of viewing the world and not just to "follow the prophet/provost/professor." Now, if my boy comes to their own conclusion that our leaders are correct, then that is great, but I want the decision not to be influenced by whether he will have to restart his schooling if he decides in the alternative.

And you are influencing the exercise of his agency by encouraging or discouraging his options about being a Mormon, using what could be said about BYU, and of course you can characterize BYU to him as you do here. But any university operates in loco parentis, and parents are typically inclined to encourage their children to enroll in a school that would influence his use of agency as they would.

 

Any/everywhere he goes he will be influenced by those with a vested interest in his choices:

 

I think it interesting that the original motto for Harvard (at the time a college) was “Veritas Christo et Ecclesiae (Truth for Christ and the Church)” but over the next 200 years it became more secularized. It is just now implementing an honor code next fall, complete with an “affirmation of integrity,” which corresponds to BYU’s ecclesiastical endorsement. So if stacking up to a secular comparison is the standard du jour, then yes, BYU is right in having an honor code and ecclesiastical endorsement (a validated affirmation) for the sake of its community.

 

This is backed up by science; this article is about the Harvard honor code and why proponents for it are finally successful after years of debate over whether the school should have one: http://harvardmagazine.com/2014/05/harvard-college-adopts-honor-code

 

Ariely studied MIT and Yale students carrying out a task for which he was able to assess how much the participants cheated. He asked half of them to sign the following statement: “I understand that this experiment falls under the guidelines of the MIT (or Yale) Honor Code.” It turned out that those who signed this statement cheated less than those who did not. The splendid feature of this particular study was that neither MIT nor Yale, as you probably know, had an Honor Code at all!

 

http://chqdaily.com/2012/08/06/ariely-small-scale-cheating-allows-us-to-still-feel-good-about-ourselves/

 

Ariely and his team have studied the effects of making people think about their morality — moral reminders. They had students at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Yale University sign an honor code.

 

“What happened? No cheating whatsoever,” Ariely said. “And no cheating whatsoever despite the fact that neither Yale nor MIT have an honor code.”

 

According to the better science, your boy is best influenced by signing an honor code somewhere (so BYU is right!), and not by the time-and-money consequence and competitive disadvantage of breaking it. Such an amoral approach to the decision wouldn't serve him well no matter where he goes.