Free Byu?

[mormonnewb]

I just learned about the Free BYU movement and its attempt to change current BYU policy regarding ecclesiastic endorsements.  In short, if a BYU student loses their faith in the Church, he/she will lose their ecclesiastic endorsement and therefore, be expelled from the university, evicted from university housing, fired from a university job, and basically, not included in any reindeer games.

 

Am I the only one who finds this requirement strange for an "institution of higher learning"?  The policy of BYU seems to be: "Come to our university and learn many new ideas and concepts, but don't you dare allow any of them to make any fundamental change to your identity."  I've always that this was the precise purpose of being "educated" -- that you leave college as a different person than the one who entered.  And that does not mean that you must (or would even likely) change religious affiliations, but that a true education would not foreclose that possibility.

 

Also, am I the only one who finds BYU's policy in this regard to be just a teensy bit inconsistent? After all, it isn't a requirement that one be a Mormon to attend BYU.  A student can worship Buddha, Krishna or even a head of lettuce and be admitted into the university.

 

Nor does BYU have a problem with anyone changing their religious affiliation.  BYU certainly welcomes those who wish to convert to our brand of Mormonism.  And BYU is "agnostic" in regards to a student converting from, saying, Catholicism to Wiccan.

 

All of that being said, I'm sure that I'm missing something here.  There must be some sound and just reason as to why BYU would enact such a policy (one that I'm not sure has a parallel in any reputable university in America).\

 

And while I'm willing to entertain all possible explanations/theories/apologetics, I'm not particularly interested in hearing that "BYU is a private institution and its students know what they are getting into when they enroll."  I am not challenging the legality or contractual enforcement of the policy.  I'm asking a "normative" question -- SHOULD BYU have such a policy and whether such a policy flies in the face of the entire concept of "education"?  And just so you know, I'm not asking for the point of "intellectual sport."  I'm asking because I have a son who will begin choosing colleges soon and I need to know if I should allow BYU to even be amongst his possible choices.

[ERayR]

I just learned about the Free BYU movement and its attempt to change current BYU policy regarding ecclesiastic endorsements.  In short, if a BYU student loses their faith in the Church, he/she will lose their ecclesiastic endorsement and therefore, be expelled from the university, evicted from university housing, fired from a university job, and basically, not included in any reindeer games.

 

Am I the only one who finds this requirement strange for an "institution of higher learning"?  The policy of BYU seems to be: "Come to our university and learn many new ideas and concepts, but don't you dare allow any of them to make any fundamental change to your identity."  I've always that this was the precise purpose of being "educated" -- that you leave college as a different person than the one who entered.  And that does not mean that you must (or would even likely) change religious affiliations, but that a true education would not foreclose that possibility.

 

Also, am I the only one who finds BYU's policy in this regard to be just a teensy bit inconsistent? After all, it isn't a requirement that one be a Mormon to attend BYU.  A student can worship Buddha, Krishna or even a head of lettuce and be admitted into the university.

 

Nor does BYU have a problem with anyone changing their religious affiliation.  BYU certainly welcomes those who wish to convert to our brand of Mormonism.  And BYU is "agnostic" in regards to a student converting from, saying, Catholicism to Wiccan.

 

All of that being said, I'm sure that I'm missing something here.  There must be some sound and just reason as to why BYU would enact such a policy (one that I'm not sure has a parallel in any reputable university in America).\

 

And while I'm willing to entertain all possible explanations/theories/apologetics, I'm not particularly interested in hearing that "BYU is a private institution and its students know what they are getting into when they enroll."  I am not challenging the legality or contractual enforcement of the policy.  I'm asking a "normative" question -- SHOULD BYU have such a policy and whether such a policy flies in the face of the entire concept of "education"?  And just so you know, I'm not asking for the point of "intellectual sport."  I'm asking because I have a son who will begin choosing colleges soon and I need to know if I should allow BYU to even be amongst his possible choices.

 

Who is paying the bills? It is a Church sponsored school.

 

Yes BYU should have such a policy.

 

No it does not fly in the face of the entire concept of "education". 

 

Whether you "allow" your young man or young woman to consider BYU is a matter for you and them to decide.  If you they do not think it would be a good fit then by all means go somewhere else that is.

Edited November 16, 2014 by ERayR

[mormonnewb]

Who is paying the bills? It is a Church sponsored school.

Yes BYU should have such a policy.

No it does not fly in the face of the entire concept of "education".

Whether you "allow" your young man or young woman to consider BYU is a matter for you and them to decide. If you they do not think it would be a good fit then by all means go somewhere else that is.

.

Care to elaborate on any REASONS why this is a good policy? Or do you want to simply stand on "Because the Church is doing it, it just be right"?

[ERayR]

.

Care to elaborate on any REASONS why this is a good policy? Or do you want to simply stand on "Because the Church is doing it, it just be right"?

 

Many companies require loyalty agreements to work for them.  As for the Church one can not expect someone who does not agree with the mission of their flagship educational institution to support that mission.

[BCSpace]

Am I the only one who finds this requirement strange for an "institution of higher learning"

 

 

BYU is a private school and therefore should be able establish any requirements they want.  As a member of the same Church, I approve the notion of ecclesiastical approval or complete loss of benefits. If you're not a member to begin with, you live the standards. If you are no longer a member or a member in good standing, you reap your reward. I find that such does nothing whatsoever to hinder the education process or the notion of higher learning.

[strappinglad]

And here I thought this thread was about the concept that the Church provide a free education to its students . I was about to suggest that newb start a crowd source fund for just that purpose.

If one wants to be 'free' of BYU shackles, just go about 30 miles north.

[mormonnewb]

BYU is a private school and therefore should be able establish any requirements they want. As a member of the same Church, I approve the notion of ecclesiastical approval or complete loss of benefits. If you're not a member to begin with, you live the standards. If you are no longer a member or a member in good standing, you reap your reward. I find that such does nothing whatsoever to hinder the education process or the notion of higher learning.

Huh? The Church has no problem with non-members attending the school so long as they live the standards. Therefore, what is the problem with a FORMER member attending so long as they agree to live the standards?

[mormonnewb]

Many companies require loyalty agreements to work for them. As for the Church one can not expect someone who does not agree with the mission of their flagship educational institution to support that mission.

But BYU requires no such loyalty from non-members. In this case, BYU has two different standards -- non-members are free to come to any understanding of their faith, but members must stay in the same bubble.

This isn't how BYU operates in any other aspect of the Honor Code. Both member and non-member alike must refrain from alcohol, premarital sex, and fun in general (and yes, I'm mostly kidding). Likewise, non-members aren't allowed to cheat on tests, skip homework assignments, etc.

So why in this one area are non-members treated differently than members?

[Calm]

In case you are not aware, nonmembers pay much higher tuition rates, still they are probably subsidised to a great extent by tithing so it would not be identical to simply have exmembers pat the same amount. If one leaves the Church they will not be paying back into the system they benefited from through tithing. Given the huge numbers of believing students from believing families who are contributing to the university through their tithing, I think putting their desires first to attend ahead of those who no longer are committed to the faith community and its various supported institutions makes sense.

Also there is a high baptism rate among nonmembers attending BYU. The dynamics of attitudes among nonmembers choosing to come to BYU is very different than attitudes among BYU students who have lost faith in LDS belief. I can understand why the administration does not want the added complication of the latter where the first can actually yield a significant positive benefit overall. BYU is not just about the academic experience or environment, it is also a social and religious one.

Add-on: I do think if BYU if going to that standard, they should work with students who need to transfer to other schools to make it as easy as possible.

Edited November 17, 2014 by calmoriah

[halconero]

What if the students didn't lose their standing in the school provided they obtained an ecclesiastical endorsement from another clergy member and were willing to pay the same non-member tuition rates that others did?

[Duncan]

I dunno, no one is putting a gun to anyone's head to attend BYU-if they don't like it then don't go

[Calm]

What if the students didn't lose their standing in the school provided they obtained an ecclesiastical endorsement from another clergy member and were willing to pay the same non-member tuition rates that others did?

I added to my post...

That wouldn't meet the need of students who merely lost faith and did not replace it with another one, which I suspect is the more common case.

Edited November 17, 2014 by calmoriah

[Ham Clam]

I'd like it if they would allow people that freedom.

I would only be amp for it if they volunteer to removed themselves, and it didn't involve them being ex-communicated or in other disciplinary action. 

[mormonnewb]

I dunno, no one is putting a gun to anyone's head to attend BYU-if they don't like it then don't go

 

Really?  Is this the best argument for the policy -- like it or lump it?

 

As I mentioned in the OP, I understand that one is free not to attend, but isn't that the case with just about any Church policy discussed on this board?

[Duncan]

Really?  Is this the best argument for the policy -- like it or lump it?

 

As I mentioned in the OP, I understand that one is free not to attend, but isn't that the case with just about any Church policy discussed on this board?

 

 

oh my days, BYU isn't the Church and I wasn't extending this policy to Church policy

[ERayR]

Really?  Is this the best argument for the policy -- like it or lump it?

 

As I mentioned in the OP, I understand that one is free not to attend, but isn't that the case with just about any Church policy discussed on this board?

 

I think Calmoriah covered it quite well in post # 9.

[mormonnewb]

What if the students didn't lose their standing in the school provided they obtained an ecclesiastical endorsement from another clergy member and were willing to pay the same non-member tuition rates that others did?

 

Given Cal's point about subsidized tuition, this makes sense.  What doesn't seem to make sense to me is the thought that someone must forfeit up to four years of educational attainment because they've decided to change religious affiliations.

 

I suspect that part of the problem for the institution is that former members could be seen as a corrosive influence, particularly with regards to converting new members.  After all, a prospective convert might hesitate in joining the Church if his/her roommate were at the same time departing the Church.  However, this isn't something from which the Church can insulate new members.

 

For example, as soon as I joined the Church and began telling people about my conversion, I learned that many of the people in my life were former Mormons -- my doctor, my hair stylist (don't be jealous, guys), my neighbor two houses down, etc.  And none of these people were shy about telling me why they left the Church.  Therefore, if one's faith is only secure in an environment of faithful and believing Mormons, then it isn't likely to survive very long in the "real world."

[mormonnewb]

oh my days, BYU isn't the Church and I wasn't extending this policy to Church policy

 

Oh my weeks, are we going to now start arguing about BYU's "independence" from the Church?  BYU does NOTHING that is in opposition to the will of the Brethren ... at least, not intentionally.  Nor would I expect it to do so.  It is a Church-run, Church-funded and Church-appointed institution.

 

So, for hopefully the last time:

 

3 feet = 1 yard

e = mc2

BYU = Church

[strappinglad]

I would like to know from someone who has attended BYU within the last ten years or so, just what activist type protests or displays they encountered around the Wilkinson center or some other quad. Abortion...pro/con , Gay rights...pro/con , women's rights , environmental issues, etc.

I know from personal experience that one can go to BYU and live quite well under the radar and hold whatever beliefs , but if one were to set up a table and preach those beliefs to the passing students there would be swift intervention. Having seen the sometimes bitter and rancorous actions of exmos ,I doubt that they would just go about their lives without trying to influence others ,often in deliberately public ways designed to embarrass. I went to BYU during the late 60s early 70s when protests against the war were ubiquitous on campuses around the country. Either for political or religious reasons, BYU was a peaceful haven from such contention which often resulted in violence and, as we know, student deaths.

One would hope that an LDS student at BYU who lost faith would have the integrity to recognize that he was attending under false pretenses and transfer to another school and pay the consequences. Unfortunately, with today's victimhood mentality, it's all about rights with no comprehension of responsibility.

[Bernard Gui]

If a student registers under the conditions of meeting an ecclesiastical endorsement, then the student knows exactly what is required

to maintain enrollment. Transferring credits to another school may be a bother, but it can and should be done if only for the reason of maintaining the personal integrity of the student and institutional integrity of the school. BYU=LDS Church has the right to set whatever conditions it wishes for admission and continued enrollment without explanation. Don't like those conditions? Go to another school. There are many.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[omni]

I would like to know from someone who has attended BYU within the last ten years or so, just what activist type protests or displays they encountered around the Wilkinson center or some other quad. Abortion...pro/con , Gay rights...pro/con , women's rights , environmental issues, etc.I know from personal experience that one can go to BYU and live quite well under the radar and hold whatever beliefs , but if one were to set up a table and preach those beliefs to the passing students there would be swift intervention. Having seen the sometimes bitter and rancorous actions of exmos ,I doubt that they would just go about their lives without trying to influence others ,often in deliberately public ways designed to embarrass. I went to BYU during the late 60s early 70s when protests against the war were ubiquitous on campuses around the country. Either for political or religious reasons, BYU was a peaceful haven from such contention which often resulted in violence and, as we know, student deaths.One would hope that an LDS student at BYU who lost faith would have the integrity to recognize that he was attending under false pretenses and transfer to another school and pay the consequences. Unfortunately, with today's victimhood mentality, it's all about rights with no comprehension of responsibility.

Good riddence to the bums! Am I right folks??? Seriously though, the real trouble comes when a student is nearing graduation and losses their faith. A transfer can cause them to lose a number of credits potentially costing them thousands of dollars and months, even years of time and effort. All this for something they didn't necessarily want or choose.

From a faithful perspective, it seems like BYU would be the best place for those who've lost their faith. Why not work with them to regain it instead of treating them as if they've committed some kind of sin? One last thing, from what I understand you can also be kicked out for joining another religion, not just if you lose your faith.

Edited November 17, 2014 by omni

[ERayR]

Good riddence to the bums! Am I right folks??? Seriously though, the real trouble comes when a student is nearing graduation and losses their faith. A transfer can cause them to lose a number of credits potentially costing them thousands of dollars and months, even years of time and effort. All this for something they didn't necessarily want or choose.

From a faithful perspective, it seems like BYU would be the best place for those who've lost their faith. Why not work with them to regain it instead of treating them as if they've committed some kind of sin? One last thing, from what I understand you can also be kicked out for joining another religion, not just if you lose your faith.

 

Leaving ones religion is always a choice.

 

See Calmoriah's post # 9.

[mormonnewb]

If a student registers under the conditions of meeting an ecclesiastical endorsement, then the student knows exactly what is required

to maintain enrollment. Transferring credits to another school may be a bother, but it can and should be done if only for the reason of maintaining the personal integrity of the student and institutional integrity of the school. BYU=LDS Church has the right to set whatever conditions it wishes for admission and continued enrollment without explanation. Don't like those conditions? Go to another school. There are many.

 

Another "like it or lump it" response.  Was I delusional in thinking that I could get a REASONED response from anyone other than Calmoriah?

[ERayR]

Another "like it or lump it" response.  Was I delusional in thinking that I could get a REASONED response from anyone other than Calmoriah?

 

Just because you reject it does not mean it is not reasoned or reasonable.

[omni]

Leaving ones religion is always a choice.

 

See Calmoriah's post # 9.

Resignation, yes. Faith crisis, not necessarily.