Free Byu?

[mormonnewb]

I would like to know from someone who has attended BYU within the last ten years or so, just what activist type protests or displays they encountered around the Wilkinson center or some other quad. Abortion...pro/con , Gay rights...pro/con , women's rights , environmental issues, etc.

I know from personal experience that one can go to BYU and live quite well under the radar and hold whatever beliefs , but if one were to set up a table and preach those beliefs to the passing students there would be swift intervention. Having seen the sometimes bitter and rancorous actions of exmos ,I doubt that they would just go about their lives without trying to influence others ,often in deliberately public ways designed to embarrass. I went to BYU during the late 60s early 70s when protests against the war were ubiquitous on campuses around the country. Either for political or religious reasons, BYU was a peaceful haven from such contention which often resulted in violence and, as we know, student deaths. [emphasis added]

One would hope that an LDS student at BYU who lost faith would have the integrity to recognize that he was attending under false pretenses and transfer to another school and pay the consequences. Unfortunately, with today's victimhood mentality, it's all about rights with no comprehension of responsibility.

 

Wow!  This is the most interesting response I've read to ANYTHING on this board for a very long while.

 

To see if I understand you correctly, one of the best things about BYU is that its students were fence sitters during the Vietnam Era?  During the Civil Rights movement, BYU students saw no evil and heard no evil.  And during the late 60s and early 70s, while their counterparts at other schools were being drafted to fight and die in a foreign jungle for reasons that practically no one supports now, you are "proud" that you and your fellow students said, "Hey, it doesn't affect us.  The Church has gotten us deferments as 'ministers of religion.'  Who's up for another round of Hula Hoop?"

 

It's amazing how differently we see the same events, but hey, that's what makes this a "dialogue," right?

[ERayR]

Wow!  This is the most interesting response I've read to ANYTHING on this board for a very long while.

 

To see if I understand you correctly, one of the best things about BYU is that its students were fence sitters during the Vietnam Era?  During the Civil Rights movement, BYU students saw no evil and heard no evil.  And during the late 60s and early 70s, while their counterparts at other schools were being drafted to fight and die in a foreign jungle for reasons that practically no one supports now, you are "proud" that you and your fellow students said, "Hey, it doesn't affect us.  The Church has gotten us deferments as 'ministers of religion.'  Who's up for another round of Hula Hoop?"

 

It's amazing how differently we see the same events, but hey, that's what makes this a "dialogue," right?

 

What do you know about the Viet Nam era?  It sounds like not much.

[Tacenda]

I added to my post...

That wouldn't meet the need of students who merely lost faith and did not replace it with another one, which I suspect is the more common case.

I've read a lot of posters on NOM or elsewhere that just fake till they make it, or IOW graduate.

[ERayR]

I've read a lot of posters on NOM or elsewhere that just fake till they make it, or IOW graduate.

 

Doesn't speak well for their integrity.

[mormonnewb]

What do you know about the Viet Nam era?  It sounds like not much.

 

I know that there were a bunch of "loyal citizens" running around yelling, "America, love it or leave it!"  My father, who served in Vietnam, was about as unimpressed with their arguments as I am with those arguments in other contexts.

Edited November 17, 2014 by mormonnewb

[ERayR]

I know that there were a bunch of "loyal citizens" running around yelling, "America, love it or leave it!"  My father, who served in Vietnam, was about as unimpressed with their arguments as I am with those arguments in other contexts.

 

Never mind.

Edited November 17, 2014 by ERayR

[Bernard Gui]

Good riddence to the bums! Am I right folks??? Seriously though, the real trouble comes when a student is nearing graduation and losses their faith. A transfer can cause them to lose a number of credits potentially costing them thousands of dollars and months, even years of time and effort. All this for something they didn't necessarily want or choose.

From a faithful perspective, it seems like BYU would be the best place for those who've lost their faith. Why not work with them to regain it instead of treating them as if they've committed some kind of sin? One last thing, from what I understand you can also be kicked out for joining another religion, not just if you lose your faith.

Not at all. It's sad for all concerned. Who would call them bums?

[Bernard Gui]

Another "like it or lump it" response.  Was I delusional in thinking that I could get a REASONED response from anyone other than Calmoriah?

Not at all a like it or lump it response. I gave my reasons....the Church=BYU has the right to set its own standards and it is under no obligation to explain. It also has the right and obligation to maintain the integrity of its admittance policies and enforce the standards it sets. The student who accepts admittance under those conditions also has the obligation to meet them on a continuing basis. You seem to think it does not have that right and the student does not have that obligation. Any reason why? 

Edited November 17, 2014 by Bernard Gui

[The Nehor]

I know that there were a bunch of "loyal citizens" running around yelling, "America, love it or leave it!"  My father, who served in Vietnam, was about as unimpressed with their arguments as I am with those arguments in other contexts.

 

And if living in the United States required you to go to BYU the comparison would mean something. I hate Wal-Mart. I don't go there.

 

It is appropriate and necessary to protest policies that you cannot escape from or cannot easily escape from that infringe on rights. When it is something easily avoided the impetus dies away. When you do not even patronize the school it is pointless nitpicking or (as is more likely in this case) an excuse to gripe about something.

[cdowis]

del

Edited November 19, 2014 by cdowis

[Pahoran]

To what extent does the Church have an obligation to provide its members, or any of them, with a university education?

If indeed it chooses to do something it is not obligated to do, to what extent does anyone have the right to demand that it amend its policies to suit their preferences?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Pahoran]

I just learned about the Free BYU movement

Evidently the sort of "movement" that may be associated with the overconsumption of prunes.

Regards,

Pahoran

[rpn]

The tithing funds of faithful members pay a large part of the cost of a BYU diploma.   People who graduate are perceived by employers and the public to have a certain fundamental goodness.   Someone who turns their back on the covenants is not in the same shoes as one who has never embraced and accepted the covenants.    And while it may not be universally true, most nonbeleivers have gone through a period of essentially lying to get to graduation --- does BYU really want graduates who do so to represent it?

 

I would be in favor of allowing someone to exit the university when they no longer believe, finish up a degree with credits elsewhere and be allowed to graduate after appropriate transfer of those credits at the rate of a non member for those who are honorable enough to admit they no longer live or believe their covenants.   I think that would disincentivize the lying that alllows former members to graduate which would be a good thing.

 

The real issue isn't BYU's expectations for graduations but how bishops interpret the ecclesiastical endorsement requirements.   I've read stories that suggest hat when someone no longer beleives but has otherwise acted honorably about teir commitments made to BYU itself, the standards office has encouraged students to have the bishop contact them to discuss the bishop's flexibility in granting the continued endorsemetn to allow graduation.  

[Robert F. Smith]

I just learned about the Free BYU movement and its attempt to change current BYU policy regarding ecclesiastic endorsements.  In short, if a BYU student loses their faith in the Church, he/she will lose their ecclesiastic endorsement and therefore, be expelled from the university, evicted from university housing, fired from a university job, and basically, not included in any reindeer games.

 

Am I the only one who finds this requirement strange for an "institution of higher learning"?  The policy of BYU seems to be: "Come to our university and learn many new ideas and concepts, but don't you dare allow any of them to make any fundamental change to your identity."  I've always that this was the precise purpose of being "educated" -- that you leave college as a different person than the one who entered.  And that does not mean that you must (or would even likely) change religious affiliations, but that a true education would not foreclose that possibility.

 

Also, am I the only one who finds BYU's policy in this regard to be just a teensy bit inconsistent? After all, it isn't a requirement that one be a Mormon to attend BYU.  A student can worship Buddha, Krishna or even a head of lettuce and be admitted into the university.

 

Nor does BYU have a problem with anyone changing their religious affiliation.  BYU certainly welcomes those who wish to convert to our brand of Mormonism.  And BYU is "agnostic" in regards to a student converting from, saying, Catholicism to Wiccan.

 

All of that being said, I'm sure that I'm missing something here.  There must be some sound and just reason as to why BYU would enact such a policy (one that I'm not sure has a parallel in any reputable university in America).\

 

And while I'm willing to entertain all possible explanations/theories/apologetics, I'm not particularly interested in hearing that "BYU is a private institution and its students know what they are getting into when they enroll."  I am not challenging the legality or contractual enforcement of the policy.  I'm asking a "normative" question -- SHOULD BYU have such a policy and whether such a policy flies in the face of the entire concept of "education"?  And just so you know, I'm not asking for the point of "intellectual sport."  I'm asking because I have a son who will begin choosing colleges soon and I need to know if I should allow BYU to even be amongst his possible choices.

Just for perspective, you might want to consider the University of Utah, once an LDS institution (Univ. of Deseret), but now a state institution.  Has the change been for the better in some respects, and worse in others?  A little of both.

 

Also, one should immediately measure anything which BYU (as part of CES) is or does over against the existence of nearby Utah Valley University, with an enrollment even larger than BYU.  BYU is not a research university and has deleted certain types of graduate programs, but some departments have very good undergraduate programs.  

 

Your son's major interests ought to be considered and compared with the programs offered at diverse schools.  Indeed, if he has excellent grades, you might want to send him to a very serious school (UCLA, UCB, an Ivy League school like Yale or Harvard), as long as he is mature enough to deal with many of his less responsible classmates there.  He may be eligible for scholarships, if money is a major consideration.

[mormonnewb]

People who graduate are perceived by employers and the public to have a certain fundamental goodness. Someone who turns their back on the covenants is not in the same shoes as one who has never embraced and accepted the covenants.

As for breaking covenants, we seem to have no problem at all with a convert breaking his/her covenants with their old religion. Is this how our honor code works? We only care about wrongdoing so long as we are the wronged party?

Of course not. The honor code punishes, say, theft regardless of whether the student steals from our Church or any other church or any individual (regardless of their religion)? Wrong is wrong. Right? So if it isn't "dishonorable" for a Sikh to convert to Mormonism than why is it "dishonorable" for the opposite to occur?

[mormonnewb]

Just for perspective, you might want to consider the University of Utah, once an LDS institution (Univ. of Deseret), but now a state institution. Has the change been for the better in some respects, and worse in others? A little of both.

Also, one should immediately measure anything which BYU (as part of CES) is or does over against the existence of nearby Utah Valley University, with an enrollment even larger than BYU. BYU is not a research university and has deleted certain types of graduate programs, but some departments have very good undergraduate programs.

Your son's major interests ought to be considered and compared with the programs offered at diverse schools. Indeed, if he has excellent grades, you might want to send him to a very serious school (UCLA, UCB, an Ivy League school like Yale or Harvard), as long as he is mature enough to deal with many of his less responsible classmates there. He may be eligible for scholarships, if money is a major consideration.

Are you suggesting that BYU isn't a "serious school"? I've always gotten the impression that BYU considers itself every bit as "rigorous" and "intellectually engaging" as any other top-flight school.

Quite frankly, that's why I was so taken aback by this policy. If it is the case that BYU is not a "serious school," then the decision is quite easy to make. He'll go to a "real school" for his secular education and he'll attend Sunday School for his religious instruction.

I guess I was naively hoping that there might be a way to combine the two.

[sunstoned]

Another "like it or lump it" response.  Was I delusional in thinking that I could get a REASONED response from anyone other than Calmoriah?

It is more than just about a student who might leave the church while attending BYU.  Anyone who has left or resigned from the church will not be considered for admission to BYU.

[Garden Girl]

 

Your son's major interests ought to be considered and compared with the programs offered at diverse schools.  Indeed, if he has excellent grades, you might want to send him to a very serious school (UCLA, UCB, an Ivy League school like Yale or Harvard), as long as he is mature enough to deal with many of his less responsible classmates there.  He may be eligible for scholarships, if money is a major consideration.

 

Huh?

UCLA a "very serious" school... Well, yes, I guess it can be considered among the top univs...  But I don't get how you think that BYU isn't a serious school... Their J. Reuben Clark Law School is right up there with Ivy League schools... in the top five at one point.  The School of Business is recognized for its programs...

Because of the generosity of some of BYU Alumni... Marriott, Huntsman, and others, BYU has some cutting edge technology available compared to other universities (I recall that a few years ago one alumnus donated a verrry expensive and first rate computer (only 1 of 3 in the U.S.)  The Harold B. Lee Library with donations from the Marriotts, etc is becoming competitive with top universities...

I may be biased, but I attended BYU in 1959-60 and remember when it was where LDS kids went to find spouses... and over the years since then the standards have been rising year after year in a quest for excellence... It is a much different university today than it was in my day... that's for sure.  I've not paid attention to the research arm of BYU, if any, so I'm not able to compare, but do know that those programs they do have are well respected.

Mature enough to deal with less responsible classmates?... with univ profs more and more like the Ward Churchills and Bill Ayerses, you possibly could include "or more radical" in there... 

Do you ever watch Watters World where he interviews college age students in various locations... or even Jay Leno when he used to do Jay Walking near the UCLA campus?  Unbelievable...

 

GG

[The Nehor]

As for breaking covenants, we seem to have no problem at all with a convert breaking his/her covenants with their old religion. Is this how our honor code works? We only care about wrongdoing so long as we are the wronged party?

Of course not. The honor code punishes, say, theft regardless of whether the student steals from our Church or any other church or any individual (regardless of their religion)? Wrong is wrong. Right? So if it isn't "dishonorable" for a Sikh to convert to Mormonism than why is it "dishonorable" for the opposite to occur?

 

You do realize that BYU is not particularly neutral about the truthfulness of the LDS gospel nor do they make any pretense about being neutral. Why would you expect them to in this case?

 

And no, I personally do not consider both conversions to be equal either.

[mormonnewb]

You do realize that BYU is not particularly neutral about the truthfulness of the LDS gospel nor do they make any pretense about being neutral. Why would you expect them to in this case?

 

And no, I personally do not consider both conversions to be equal either.

 

Then we probably need to get rid of our 11th article of faith or at least make some revisions to it.  Perhaps, it should now read something like:

 

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may; provided, of course, that such men are not students at BYU who are Mormon, at which point they may only worship according to the dictates of OUR conscience, and if not, we shall scatter their transcripts and earned grades and achievements through the delete function of our student records server.  Thus, sayeth the Provost!

Edited November 17, 2014 by mormonnewb

[mormonnewb]

It is more than just about a student who might leave the church while attending BYU.  Anyone who has left or resigned from the church will not be considered for admission to BYU.

 

Thanks, pal!  It is now even worse than I first thought.  

 

Fortunately, I can't fathom that being much of a problem for anyone.  It would probably qualify as criminal insanity to "escape" the LDS Church and then dive headlong into the most tightly-controlled part of it -- BYU.  The person who thinks that Mormonism is too controlling/kooky/false to be a member shouldn't even consider attending BYU, regardless of the quality of some of its programs.

[The Nehor]

Then we probably need to get rid of our 11th article of faith or at least make some revisions to it.  Perhaps, it should now read something like:

 

We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may; provided, of course, that such men are not students at BYU who are Mormon, at which point they may only worship according to the dictates of OUR conscience, and if not, we shall scatter their transcripts and earned grades and achievements through the delete function of our student records server.  Thus, sayeth the Provost!

Of course the original is perfectly accurate as well as it does not contain promises about academic credit or the right to attend a school no matter what your faith is or a promise that conversions from or to any faith will not include consequences. Not sure why you read all that into it.

If you want a world where choices do not matter you signed up for the wrong planet.

[mormonnewb]

Of course the original is perfectly accurate as well as it does not contain promises about academic credit or the right to attend a school no matter what your faith is or a promise that conversions from or to any faith will not include consequences. Not sure why you read all that into it.

If you want a world where choices do not matter you signed up for the wrong planet.

 

Who says anything about not wanting a world with consequences?  There are natural consequences to any action, but lest you forget, the POLICIES of BYU are not in that category.  They are consequences imposed by MEN.  And while those men have the LEGAL right to impose such consequences, my question here is whether that decision is MORALLY right.  And trust me, there is a difference.

 

I have a legal RIGHT to verbally abuse my wife.  To my knowledge, there isn't a single law prohibiting me from calling her "dumb," "lazy" or a hundred other derogatory terms.  And if she CHOOSES to stay with me knowing full well my propensity for name-calling, I guess some of you would be fine with that.  After all, I provide her with food, clothing and the necessities of life, so if she wants what I provide, then she has to put up with whatever conditions I require, right?

 

Wrong!  Wrong!  Wrong!  Likewise, just because BYU has the legal right to condition its education on certain criteria, it doesn't necessarily make those criteria morally "right."  If BYU made its education dependent upon members agreeing to only vote for Democrats, I suspect that many of you would scream "Bloody murder!"  Or what if it simply required all students to hop around on one foot at all times on campus?  It has the LEGAL right to do so (except for a few ADA claims, I suppose).  But I would sincerely HOPE that some of you would at least ask WHY the BYU-Bunny-Hop was being imposed?

 

As the parent of a prospective student that's all I'm asking.  I've acknowledged for the thousandth time that BYU has the right to set such a policy.  My question is WHY?

 

What purpose does this policy serve?

[Bernard Gui]

 

 

As the parent of a prospective student that's all I'm asking.  I've acknowledged for the thousandth time that BYU has the right to set such a policy.  My question is WHY?

 

What purpose does this policy serve?

You have been given a lot of responses, just not the one you like. 

[mormonnewb]

You have been given a lot of responses, just not the one you like. 

 

No, I've received a couple of responses -- one about tuition and one about breaking covenants.  The rest of the responses have amounted to "Because BYU feels like it."

 

Interestingly, for such an imminently "reasonable" policy, I would have expected a lot more.  For example, someone once asked me, "Why does your church insist on members doing home teaching?"  I guess I could have responded with, "Because we're a private institution and members know what to expect going in!"

 

However, since I actually think there are great reasons to do home teaching, I gave that person what they were asking for -- REASONS (e.g., it builds a sense of community, it ensures that families don't "fall through the cracks," it allows our young men to learn what stewardship is like, it allows members to get to know members that they might not otherwise gravitate towards, etc.).  Silly me!

Edited November 17, 2014 by mormonnewb