sunstoned

Yes, it could have been worse. Deception is not as bad a out and out fraud.

Very convincing. You should go with this cobbled together "logic".

So the words of Spencer Kimball mean nothing to you?

Strained apologetic thinking aside, It is quite clear to me and many others such as President Kimball (quoted below) that "it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations " means no other nations. This was a common teaching in the church for decades. That is until the evidence to the contrary became overwhelming. That is one of the reasons the intro to the BoM was changed.

2 Nephi 1: 5-11 Quote 7 Wherefore, this land is consecrated unto him whom he shall bring. And if it so be that they shall serve him according to the commandments which he hath given, it shall be a land of liberty unto them; wherefore, they shall never be brought down into captivity; if so, it shall be because of iniquity; for if iniquity shall abound cursed shall be the land for their sakes, but unto the righteous it shall be blessed forever. 8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance. Quote "The Lord took every precaution to see that nothing might interfere with this posterity of Joseph in working out their God-given destiny and the destiny of America. He provided, and so told Lehi at the very beginning of his settlement, that: . . it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations ; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance. (2 Nephi 1:8.) The Lord so kept the land for a thousand years after Lehi landed. He so kept it in His wisdom for another thousand years after the Nephites were destroyed, perhaps to give the Lamanitish branch another chance." Expand - Apostle J. Reuben Clark, "Prophecies, Penalties, and Blessings," Improvement Era, 1940, v. xliii., July 1940. no. 7 And with regards to DNA: "About twenty-five centuries ago, a hardy group left the comforts of a great city, crossed a desert, braved an ocean, and came to the shores of this, their promised land. There were two large families, those of Lehi and Ishmael, who in not many centuries numbered hundreds of millions of people on these two American continents." - Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 601 Millions of people and no DNA or other evidence. The church needs to modify what the BoM is. It cannot be a real history.

2 Nephi 1: 5-11 - Apostle J. Reuben Clark, "Prophecies, Penalties, and Blessings," Improvement Era, 1940, v. xliii., July 1940. no. 7 And with regards to DNA: "About twenty-five centuries ago, a hardy group left the comforts of a great city, crossed a desert, braved an ocean, and came to the shores of this, their promised land. There were two large families, those of Lehi and Ishmael, who in not many centuries numbered hundreds of millions of people on these two American continents." - Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 601 Millions of people and no DNA or other evidence. The church needs to modify what the BoM is. It cannot be a real history.

valid point. He probably didn't know because like almost everyone, it was hidden from him. Maybe the 12 could call the first presidency to an accounting on this.

At least I would hope that they reevaluate their message and tailor it to me more honest. Case in point: "There has been no attempt on the part of the church leaders to try to hide anything from anybody." —M. Russell Ballard

Well, according to the BoM the land was empty. They were the only ones. Moroni and Mormon write on million men armies. You can extrapolate how much support a army of that size would need. It is in the neighborhood of the total allied effort in WW2. That is a huge genetic footprint that would leave a huge impact. Any yet we had nada.

Norse colonization of North America which had the combined population was around 2,000–3,000 cannot even be compared to the supposed population of the BoM peoples with their million men armies.

How about just buying it.

I'm all for Judeo-Christian values and ethics. Taken in the broad sense (other than perhaps the label) most good peoples of the world follow them in some form or another regardless of the religion they hold. The disconnect with Christian-Nationalism is that it is not alined with many of those values. Starting with Judge not less you be judged.

It seems he has quite a large TikTok following.

This thing is starting to have legs. The Wall Street is now reporting:

This is a disturbing trend. The constitution protects religious freedom, but it also guarantees a separation of church and state. That means to me that a predominant religion or belief system cannot impose it's beliefs on everyone. It only takes a quick scan of current headlines to see that political groups are trying to impose their brand of "morality" on everyone. This spectrum includes the banning of books and censoring the black and the civil rights movement history to the denying the rights of women and transgendered peoples to choose personal medical options. Right now in this country, traditional religion membership is declining. The majority of Americans oppose full bans of abortion. Most Americans support LGBTQ and Transgendered rights, but the far right, which has hijacked the Republican party are not listening.

This is a Peggy Fletcher Stack article that is out today. I have not read the full 90 page report so I can comment on if these are valid accusations or not. From the article: https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2023/02 ... tax-fraud/

BYU will lose good professors because of this heavy handed change. Putting one's academic career in the hands of non-academic lay church leaders with no checks and balances is a terrible idea.

as darkness falls

I could not get past the paywall, and have not read the article so I will refrain from commenting other that to say this. Academic freedom is seen by most as an essential freedom. This is the reason for tenure, to guard professors from reprisals for what the research and teach. Throughout history one of the first things a totalitarian regime does is suppress freedoms. Freedom of assembly, freedom of speech. And they start at the universities. history is rife with examples, Russia in the 1920s, Germany in the 1930s, Iran and Ron DeSantis today. I am not saying BYU, which is my alma mater is anywhere close to this. It is not. But I do know by most standards it is a real stretch to say academic freedom is practiced there. In 1998 BYU was censured by The American Association of University Professors for violations of academic freedom. In the past twenty five years it has done nothing to address this. Tenure, or what BYU calls continuing status is not the protection it was meant to be at any church run schools. There is a long list of professors who have been pushed out, often for no other reason than a social media post supporting LGBTQ rights. These things have been noted by the press and by the academic community, and it hurts the reputation of the school. I am disturbed by this. And it seems that this is becoming more of a trend.

I think it is all about transparency. People and organizations that have nothing to hide are usually transparent. To me it is a big red flag for a organization that elicits donations should be accountable to disclose what those donations are being used for.

I believe a more equable approach would be to administer conservation policies fairly. Which would mean that farmers would need to cut back water usage just like the residential home owners have been doing for years.

Yes, I have wondered this myself. Good to know.

Spencer W. Kimball had an inactive son. I know this because he told me. I had just completed my missionary training and was at the SLC airport catching my flight to my mission area. It was 4:30 a.m. and the airport was pretty much empty. I looked down the hall and saw this little guy walking with what looked like a large body guard. As they got closer I recognized him as Spencer W. Kimball, the current prophet. I went up to him like a 19 year old would, and introduced myself. This made the big guy real nervous, but SWK was nice and took the time to chat with me. He asked what mission I was going to, and when he found out it was Illinois, he asked me to look up his granddaughter's family, who were inactive. She was the daughter of the inactive son. The whole interaction I had with him lasted just a couple of minutes, but I went away thinking he was a very kind grandfatherly person. I did actually look up his granddaughter and her husband. They were also nice but wanted nothing to do with the church.

The police cared who was protesting.